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Its not just the bi-lingual signs we have in Wales, there's also the bi-lingual road tax reminders, log books etc etc. Now that's a waste of paper!
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Its not just the bi-lingual signs we have in Wales, there's also the bi-lingual road tax reminders, log books etc etc. Now that's a waste of paper!
I agree - bi-lingual documentation - total waste of time and money - save money - drop the English version I say!
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Its not just the bi-lingual signs we have in Wales, there's also the bi-lingual road tax reminders, log books etc etc. Now that's a waste of paper!
I agree!
I have moved to Cardiff from the south coast of England.
I applied for a new Disabled Parking Permit (Blue Badge) and on the last page of the application (which was TOTALLY written in English) was a questionaire for ethnicity, which I filled out stating that I was English born & bred. (well the first 40 years anyway).
The Badge duelly arrived with the 'terms & conditions' booklet which was thicker than I had previously had in England.
Aha! what's changed?
Nothing half the book is Welsh!!
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And of course there's the bi-lingual signs in the "Gaeltaechd" (the Gaelic speaking areas of the north-west Highlands and islands) -
Interesting that you should mention that.
Gaelic effectively became extinct on the Scottish mainland about 40 years ago. The vast majority of native speakers living on the mainland, whether in the Highlands, or further south, are actually islanders who have come to live on the mainland. The number of native mainland Highlanders whose first language in Gaelic is probably well under 1000.
And yet . . . it is only in the past couple of years that the craze for bilingual road signs has hit. They waited for the language to become extinct in these communities before putting up bilingual signs. (I stress that I am talking about the mainland. In the Western Isles, where Gaelic is still widely spoken, there have been bilingual signs for years - and the same is true for the handful of mainland communities where there were more than a handful of Gaelic speakers left.)
Of course, if you ask people in these Highland communities what they want their money spent on, they will talk about care facilities for the elderly, better facilities for young people, better roads etc. But not Gaelic roadsigns.
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If you think bi-lingual road signs are confusing you should try driving along the Irish border. In the North the speed limits are in MPH while in the South they're in KMH!
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Right that does it! You english seem to think that us welsh speak welsh as some sort of tourist gimick
AS a welsh speaking welsh man i could take you to DOZENS of people who's FIRST language is Welsh they know no different (one or two older people who can't comunicate in English) there are many many younger people who feel more comfortable speaking welsh as their first language.
AND don't ANY of you english use that old chesnut that as soon as you walk in a pub everone starts speaking Welsh. A load of bull! They were more than likely speaking Cymraeg before you walked in.
Mrs MM is english before any of you comment
I have no real oppinion on bilingual signs. There is lots i don't agree with in the way the language is delt with by various bodies.
The figure for total number of welsh speakers is i belive 26%. I would say that anybody born and brought up in wales would be able to read and probably understand them
What i do object to is the attitude that the welsh language is a irrelavance
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Salaam aleikum mm. Yr wyv i yn bachgen bach. Well I used to be, but not any more I'm afraid.
Seems to be a fact that local particularities and small nationalisms are coming back into favour. Something to do with globalization seeming to homogenise everything so that we are all supposed to share the wardrobe, views and general style of an Essex/New Jersey mongrel.
Personally I favour a bit of variety even if people sometimes seem to insist on it in a shrill way (not you of course).
There are lots of very small societies in Africa and elsewhere in the third world which are disappearing at a horrendous rate. You can't blame people for wanting to preserve what is specific to them.
As long as everyone can read the road signs I don't see what the problem is.
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Have to agree with TVM.
Putting aside cultural and emotional arguments. The hard fact is that the vast majority of the population of Wales do not speak or read Welsh. In this area, Gwynedd Council and Anglesey (sorry Ynys Mon) Council have a policy verging on discrimination when it comes to advertising for jobs. The catchline being something along the lines of, -
'because you may come across someone who speaks Welsh, despite the fact that they speak English as well, you can't have the job unless you speak Welsh. So there'.
Fortunately Conwy Council have seen the light and are a bit more chilled out.
Bi-lingual signs, and bi-lingual paperwork are an utter, monumental waste of money. Whether they are necessary to ensure that the language survives is a whole different argument and not one for this forum.
Let's be honest, there may be the odd octegenarian tucked away in a hillside village somewhere who ONLY speaks Welsh, but anyone else claiming to be the same is probably pretending.
I remember a story I was told about the friend of a friend, a Polish lady who moved to a small village near Pwllhelli. She had a bit of trouble settling in, with a few of the villagers refusing to speak to her. It finally came out that some of the old villagers felt she should learn to speak Welsh to talk to them. Her reply -
'I already speak one minority European language, why on earth would I want to learn another one?'
Can I just add on the usual disclaimer here. I've lived in North Wales for over ten years, I don't speak Welsh, but have never come across a situation in my business or personal life where that has been a problem. So if anyone from cymuned is reading this, please don't come and burn my house down. Ta.
--
let me be the last to let you down....
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In your case Lordy, whats the welsh for "I always have the last laugh"
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Talking to SWMBO last night, she syas that since learning the lingo (And now going for an A Level) she loves earwiggng in the pubs we visit there. Some of the Anglesey posters may know the Sailor's Return in Beaumaris. You'll be re-assured to hear they weren't talking about us but having an aminated conversation about Mr Brunstrom and his anti-speed policy.
She also pointed out that there was a campaign in the 70s where English road signs were taken down or defaced so I gues sit was more cost-effective to put uop Welsh only (as in Caernarfon not Caernarvon or Cnwy not Conway) than to keep replacing them..
Personally I say live and let live, there's no road safety issue. If it gives the oldest European language north of the Alps a little bit of a chance in this sea of Anglo American culture, I say its a good thing.
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Quite a few years ago, when my brother's work team were having a meeting they went somewhere in north Wales. They sat down and those at the bar suddenly stopped speaking English and started speaking Welsh. Not only that but they were speaking about my brother and colleagues.
So they decide what to order, brother walks to the bar and starts speaking Welsh. Apparently their faces were a picture and they realised not only were they rude but got found out.
But whilst at Manchester Uni, you'd find the foreign nationals would often be speaking English then someone joined their group and they'd start speaking Chinese/Greek/whatever which I also found rude. So the small number of Welsh on the course used to speak Welsh in front of them every now and again to see how they liked it ;-)
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Whenever I go on a tour of the Colonies and end up in Wales, I amuse myself for far longer than I should by trying to pronounce the Welsh as broadly as I can, so much so that it sounds like English spoken by a Welshman.
So, let's take one word. "Llath". Remember that "Ll" sounds like coughing up a greebo and that you slur the "th". Say it in a daft enough way and it sounds like a Welshman saying "yards". Instant Translation!
My wife doesn't find it quite as amusing as I do, needless to say.
V
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Remember that "Ll"sounds like coughing up a greebo
No, no, Vin. Coughing up a greebo sounds more like the German 'ch'.
Charming image though.
What is a 'greebo'? Perhaps we would rather not know.
Welsh Ll sounds a bit like a very big snake hissing out of the side of its mouth. I can't put it any better than that, but I can do it all right.
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As an native born Essex man with Geordie relatives and Welsh speaking friends I say good luck to you all with your diverse dialects and bilingual signs that make the British Isles what they are.
However, please don't think that the version of English known as Estuary English has anything much to do with the true Essex accent, it's much more East End than Essex.
Sadly the true Essex speakers are dying out rapidly as commuters take over all the towns within an hour and a half of London, most of the youngest are now in their sixties, but if you come across one have a good listen because they won't be around for much longer, mind you, you might have a bit of difficulty 'unnersandin ym, tickly if'n y taking boot Sm Bartles en Col'ster, booy.'
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As an native born Essex man with Geordie relatives and Welsh speaking friends ......... 'unnersandin ym, tickly if'n y taking boot Sm Bartles en Col'ster, booy.'
cockle: terribly naff of me. Of course I meant estuary. Many apologies. It's Monkey dust 'LUNDERN!!!' 'ESSIIIIIX!!' etc. and jokes, God, sorry, about 'Essex girls'. of course there's no such thing and so on, that make one make these mistakes.
Sorry.
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Hey, Lud, no need for a sorry we're so used to it, it doesn't worry us anymore, we know the truth so it's OK.
Plus we've got thick skins, got something to do with the winter Nor'Easterlies coming straight off the North Sea ;-)
Mind you some of our local lasses.............they've got really thick skin on their mid riffs to keep the cold out even in the middle of winter!
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"don't ANY of you english (sic) use that old chesnut (sic) that as soon as you walk in a pub everone (sic) starts speaking Welsh"
I visited a Cash and Carry with a colleague in a previous job. My colleague was at the other end of the aisle. It was my first visit to the place, and I listened as the owner and his buyer walked down the aisle talking English then switched to Welsh as they got into earshot of my mate.
That's not a tale about a friend of a friend. That was me.
Welsh roiadsigns are no help WHATSOEVER to drivers and are a (very expensive) sop to the Welsh.
V
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How do the Welsh speakers get on when they go to then continent?
How would the English survive if all roadsigns in Wales were in Welsh only?
Can Welsh and English survive when driving in Greece/Russia/Saudi/Israel/Indiaetc - different language/ alphabet. How does HJ get on in Thailand?
I have a feeling that it makes little difference what language they are in. It's a political decision.
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Phil
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"Of course, if you ask people in these Highland communities what they want their money spent on, they will talk about care facilities for the elderly, better facilities for young people, better roads etc. But not Gaelic roadsigns."
Quite right. But nevertheless they push Gaelic (at all our expense) not least in highland and particularly island schools.
They would do better to put the effort into European languages, at which we are all mostly quite hopeless. If nothing better, the lads and ladesses could cope with, say, German or French road signs which tend not to be multi-lingual.
Oh, and a small correction - "what they want OUR money spent on"!
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They would do better to put the effort into European languages, at which we are all mostly quite hopeless. If nothing better, the lads and ladesses could cope with, say, German or French road signs which tend not to be multi-lingual. Oh, and a small correction - "what they want OUR money spent on"!
All right. OUR money :-)
Personally, if they want to spend money on road signs in the Highlands, and fancy having other languages on them, I'd prefer that they would put up signs in German, French, etc, instructing tourists on the correct use of passing places on single track roads!
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I lived for quite a while in South Pembrokeshire - from where the CAR ferry leaves for Cork.
The area is known as "Little England Beyond Wales". Here the first language is English, the churches are Norman, the real local accent is very like the West Country one and when dual language road signs were first erected it was often the Welsh part which was defaced! All this goes back to the days of the Norman conquest, when South Pembs. was as far as the invaders got before giving up.. Strangely, the language divide follows very closely the route of the A40. South is English, North and to the West roughly as far as Llanelli and perhaps, Swansea is VERY Welsh. Just 40 miles separates Pembroke and Carmarthen, but they might just as well be in two separate countries!
Pembroke Castle was the birthplace of Henry Tudor and was beseiged by Cromwell in the Civil War.
The language divide is known as the "Landsker Line"
Roger. (Costa del Sol, España)
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For the attention of those who think that Welsh signs in Wales are a waste of time:
1. What is the objection to using our own language in our own country?
2. God help you if you have to drive on the continent where all the signs are in a language other than english.
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"God help you if you have to drive on the continent where all the signs are in a language other than english"
Had fun driving in Corfu years ago. Luckily I did A level physics and knew the Greek alphabet. Short pause to read signs and you were off again. At least Welsh place names can be read due to the common characters.
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The Welsh spoken here in Pembrokeshire is apparantly derided by those in the north and in the valleys of South Wales as not being the true language. Pembs people on the other hand refer to everyone else as speaking Gog Welsh.
--
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"Gog Welsh"
Gog is derived from the Welsh word gogledd meaning north. South Wales Welsh speakers sometimes call the ones from the north gogs. Anyone familiar with the animated series "Gogs" should note it was made by BBC Cardiff... say no more.
But the Welsh language (accents apart) has differences north and south, e.g.
NOW = "nawr" in the south and "rwan" in the north (note they are the reverse spelling!)
MILK = "llaeth" in the south and often "llefrith" in the north
Weird language which gets worse with the mutation of the first letter of a word... I could go on but the Welsh for "in" is "yn" (for a place anyway as there's also "mewn") and so "in Cardiff" (with Caerdydd being the Welsh version) is actually:
... yng Nghaerdydd
Because a C comes have yn, it mutates to ngh and the yn becomes yng.
Need I say more. but I want the Welsh language to continue and prosper. Far more Welsh bilingual schools now than there were 17 years ago let alone 30+ years ago.
Nos da.
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Had the English not taken it upon themselves with their usual colonial attitude to change Welsh place names to suit their own "too lazy to bother" way with other people`s languges there would be no need for different ways of pronouncing (or spelling) Welsh place names.
How do all the forum little Englanders cope on the continent.? Try asking a Frenchman to have bi-lingual place names in France -and let`s hope you like French hospital food.
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-and let`s hope you like French hospital food.
Pourquoi?
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"bi-lingual place names in France "
Which of course they do - in Brittany (Breizh?)and the Basque regions to name but two. I suspect it also occurs in the Catalan region round Perpignan also
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Phil
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Piggy is spot on about place names. Even then the vast majority are recognisable. Where thet are not (Abertawe, Caergybi, Yr Wyddgrug) addition of the English name to a road sign equates to the paint and possibly a few square inches of tinplate.
Similarly with directive signs, the translations and layouts are standard templates. The extra cost is just paint and tin - how vast is that?
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SWMBO has told me to post "bethbynag" whatever that means. (probably a village in Mid Wales)
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SWMBO has told me to post "bethbynag" whatever that means. (probably a village in Mid Wales)
Apparently it means, " 50% reduction in fees for backroomers." Must be an abbreviation!
Night night................MD.
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Martin,
She would never do that to me being an accountant.
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Nearly there PU. You missed some punctuation.
SWMBO has told me to post "bethbynag." 'Whatever,' that means.
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For the attention of those who think that Welsh signs in Wales are a waste of time:
1. What is the objection to using our own language in our own country?
because most of your countrymen dont know what the hell they mean or care
2. God help you if you have to drive on the continent where all the signs are in a language other than english.
I accept that because they all speak the lingo.
Lets get a couple of points right,
Its not your country, its ours. Wales is not a country,
We ( the british ) are paying for this political madness.
When it does become a country, you pay for your own roadsigns out of your own taxes. Oh and you can pay to cross the Severn Bridge into England as well as we english paid for it.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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'Get your clog down, you foreign wimp!' in 14 or 15 European (more or less) languages... yes, I could live with that.
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Last post is not very serious response to Tomo and tyro. Sometimes one puts too much original post in, sometimes not enough.
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Less general talk, and more motoring discussion please.
DD.
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Maybe the thread has come to an end:
1. Welsh road signs and (some) road markings by law will be bilingual. We might disagree but we won't change it
2. Some Welsh speakers are ignorant and rude to non-Welsh speakers (I am a Welsh speaker so feel I can say that)
3. Overseas you generally accept the foreign road signs. And even in Greece some of these use the Greek alphabet and no English version in sight - easy to read if you know your Alphas and Omegas :-)
I don't think there can be much more motoring discussion on bilingual signs. You see 'em in Wales... and that's about it. OP sorry.
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Barking and Dagenham are experimenting with roadsigns which reflect the local community rather than following DoT guidlines.
No Right Turn is to be replaced by a board sayine "Leave It Out John", and No Entry by "You'e Havin' A Laugh".
--
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Barking and Dagenham are experimenting with roadsigns which reflect the local community rather than following DoT guidlines. No Right Turn is to be replaced by a board sayine "Leave It Out John", and No Entry by "You'e Havin' A Laugh
eerr wrong language for Barking and Dagenham
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Well I like them ... the Welsh that is, they have their own culture, plenty of good original modern music which is on a par with anything else in the World (if not better in some cases), some perfect motoring roads.
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I love the welsh. Well one of them actually.
Seriously, I like the welsh, I like the country, I even like the sheep. I object to paying extra for the damn road signs.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Don't worry, TVM, in future they will do two signs, one on each side of the road ready for when we drive on the right.
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...and TVM just remember you'll have to love them even more when they have the monolopy on drinking water......
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