Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Hi all,

Advice would be welcomed over a little potential problem/dilemma as follows:-

I have recently sold my (deceased) mother in laws's old Nissan Micra (vintage 1990) which had been 'sorned' and garaged for the last 4 years. I advertised it on E Bay with the intention of giving the proceeds to the local church.

It reached the princely sum of £60 but I gave an honest and frank descrption of the car including the above and that it did not possess an MOT and that is probably needed new brake discs (at least). I also advised that it would be best 'trailered away' as it needed a service. The car sold (unseen) to a woman who sent me a cheque some 2 weeks ago, which has now cleared.

She has now contacted me to request to collect it tomorrow (23/8/06) with a friend from Liverpool and has intimated that she intends to drive it away untaxed/uninsured (perhaps),un-MOT'd and 'sorned'.

I have changed the ownership details on the V5 today and photocopied the completed form (for my own benefit) to the address which she gave me which was ''Woolwich Barracks', London..

My dilemma is, and I like to think that I am responsible and law abiding, what should I do if, despite my advice to the contrary, she still drives this care away tomorrow. I feel that without a mechanical check it would be dangerous to do this.

What would you do ??? Any comments and/or advice would be appreciated please

With thanks

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - 3T
Ian
You have done the right thing with your advert and the price reached could probably be seen as scrap value for parts .
If you are really worried you could always get the buyer to sign for the car aswell. I have done this in the past drawing attention to the age and mileage of the car , the fact it has not been driven for years and you recommend it be trailered away.
If they sign this I think you can let them on their way knowing you have done the right thing and anything that happens is really beyond your control/responsibilty.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Thommo
Has the cheque cleared?

The fact you can draw funds on it means nothing. A cheque is only really cleared when your bank receives the funds, until then your bank is loaning you the money for free and if it does not clear will want it back.

Is it a cheque drawn on a UK clearing bank? If not it probably hasn't cleared.

The address also sounds like rubbish but lets start with the cheque.

Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Thank you for your comments and advice to date.

The prospect of getting a signature from the purchaser accepting my advice 'not to drive' and that the car should be trailered away seems appropriate and I will do this. Excellent idea 3T.

The cheque was from the Bank of Scotland the origin of which matched the lady's Scottish accent and looking back, it was presented for payment on 3.8.06. I assume that it has cleared by now. I suppose that I have been particularly helpful in offering to keep the car for this time awaiting collection.

The 'what if' factor concerns me in that I feel - and have advised - that this car is probably not roadworthy or safe. I think that it is her intention to drive this back to Liverppol to have the necessary remedial work done to the car by her 'friend'.

Ian


Car transfer jitters - advice please - Thommo
Assuming its a UK branch of the BOS then all should be well.

I think asking this woman to sign an advice not to drive is a bit pointless. What does it achieve exactly? She is an adult and must make and live by her own choices.

What I would do is get both bits of the V5 signed and hold on to both of them saying you will post them both and post them that day and the consequences from then on should be none of your business.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Dalglish
....What would you do ??? Any comments and/or advice would be appreciated please ..


purely my personal opinion: i would think about "aiding and abetting a crime", and refuse to allow the car to be driven away.
see www.direct.gov.uk/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicl...n
and navigate to "advice on selling" and from there at the bottom of that page
" Legal obligations of drivers and keepers of vehicles ".

Car transfer jitters - advice please - Wales Forester
Hopefully she'll pass an ANPR van/car on the journey home and have it seized for no docs.

Car transfer jitters - advice please - bell boy
make sure woman signs the v5c left hand side at the bottom dates it and the time she came,(as tommo says) keep a record of the ebay listing in case she kills anybody on her way home and you have exonerated yourself,remove the air from one tyre so she has to work a little bit harder (you do not have a pump) turn the lights on now so battery will be flat when she arrives.
Doing these things will give you time to report her to the police so they can arrest her hopefully at the next border county..
Make sure you send the v5c to swansea because if you dont as sure as eggs are eggs this car will come to haunt you.
Dont get friendly with these people when they turn up,it could be your own family they knock down with their dammed stupidity,you can hire brenderup car transporter trailers for less than £40 for the day............
they are muppets (my new word for the day ;-)
Car transfer jitters - advice please - chairmanmatt
I saw a similar query a few months ago on this sight. I recall people commenting that once the car has been sold it is up to the individual how they transport the car home. Technically it' doesn't belong to you. If the police pull her over it will be her in trouble for travelling without tax and MOT ? insurance. I think the driver must make sure that the car they are driving is road worthy?.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Dry bearings
Why not ring the local Police (Traffic section) for advice? Assuming your council tax is paid up to date.Otherwise don't bother.
They'll be the ones pressing charges if you all get caught.Sleep well (TIC).
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Again, thank you for the responses thus far.

That was one of my concerns Dalglish in that - to turn your point around, I am failing to prevent a criminal offence being committed. Apart from the moral and social issues in allowing this lady to drive a potentially unsafe car on the road and thereby putting herself and others at potential risk, I am in a job where I cannot have any criminal offence (no matter how unrelated to child protection social work) recorded against me.

Mmmmmm, should I refuse to part with the car

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Thanks dry bearings, our posts crossed over

Oan
Car transfer jitters - advice please - chairmanmatt
*IF* the police stop her and it comes back to you - you could show them the ebay print out and say that as far as you were concerned they were towing it away. I doubt it would come back to you as you provide her with a SORN V5 and an out of date tax disc.
If your going to lose sleep over it then just cancel the sale. £60 isn't a lot in the gran scheme of things.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - bell boy
you could trash it now and let her turn up and give her her money back yes
better still put 2 lbs of tate and lyle sugar in the petrol tank now, run it up for 5 minutes and it will never run again without a lot of expense,she cant drive it then and you no "nuthing" she will then either demand a refund or have to get it towed (jobs a gudun)
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Adam {P}
Ian,

If you become too uncomfortable at letting her drive away but don't want to say "no" as it could be awkward, just say your brother in law is a cop or something and has "expressed concerns" be ...subtle and hopefully it will fall into place.

How far away from Liverpool do you live? I know your name is Anglesey Ian - do you actually live there?
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Dear all,

Well I asked for it and I certainly received the gamut of advice. Thanks to you all.

Remind me never to fall out with you oldman and others. Lol

I have decided to offer her money back rather than to allow her to put this car on the road. She may, of course, turn up with a trailer and end of problem.

I will let you know the outcome

Regards Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Yep Adam.

a little village 1.5 miles from Beaumaris. I would estimate 100 miles from Liverpool

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Pugugly {P}
Pentraeth ?
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Pug

Llandegfan - 7 miles from Pentraeth

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Xileno {P}
"I would estimate 100 miles from Liverpool"

Quite safe then ;-)
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Adam {P}
>>Quite safe then ;-)<<

You little scamp, you!

I was only saying Ian because Merseyside seem to be getting quite hot on the motorist recently. I've seen more speed traps this last week than I ever have as well as the Police Jags seemingly following me everwhere I go and being very visible on the way into Liverpool. The point I was making is, is that it could get quite difficult if you lived there - or close to there and she got pulled over. I wouldn't think you'd be at fault at all but I've no idea where the law stands and you wouldn't want two cops on your doorstep late at night.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Wales Forester
She' d have had no chance escaping Traffic Taliban Brunstrom's force area without getting stopped anyway.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Yep,
Can get pretty paranoid around here. Burgling OK it seems but drive at 31Mmph............oohh errr- contraversial
.
Come to think of it, there has been one of those vans parked on the Menai Bridge for the past few days, silently watching the passing traffice but with a police car parked at the other end of the bridge.

Incidentally ( on advice) spoke to the Police earlier and they advise me to call them if she attempts to drive away. I hope it doesn't come to that but then I do have a damned social conscience

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Dalglish
I do have a damned social conscience

>>

in which case, i would suggest you google (limit search to uk) for these three words:
selling unroadworthy cars

quoting from first two links that come up:

"The Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell an unroadworthy car. It does not distinguishbetween private sellers and motor traders "

What does the law say? Section 75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 makes it an offence to sell, supply or offer to sell or supply, or expose for sale an unroadworthy vehicle. It is also an offence to repair/service a vehicle and leave it in an unroadworthy state. However, an offence may not be committed if the following can be proven, ? The vehicle was for export from Great Britain, or ? There was reasonable cause to believe that the vehicle would not be used on the road or would not be used until it had been put into roadworthy condition. NB You would need to show that you took all reasonable steps to ensure the buyer was fully aware that the vehicle was unroadworthy and not to be used on the road.
..... ......
Can you sell unroadworthy vehicles for spares or repair etc.?
Unroadworthy vehicles can be sold if: ? They are being sold for spares and the buyer has been made fully aware that this is the case and that the car should not be used on the road in it?s current state. ? The vehicle is to be repaired and made roadworthy by the buyer and the buyer has been made fully aware of this. You should put a notice on the windscreen of the car stating that: ? It is unroadworthy ? It is being sold for spare parts / on the understanding that the buyer will restore to roadworthy condition ? It should not be used on the road in its current condition ? It must be transported from the premises (not driven) ? An MOT certificate or tax should not be given with the vehicle, as this would indicate that it is fit to use on the road. In addition you should put this information on any document relating to a sale and ask the buyer to sign to say they understand .... ..... ....


Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Dalglish

Thorough and comprehensive as always: thank you for the legal chapter and verse which is very informative, helpful as well as useful.

I have slept on the advice provided last evening and have decided upon a strategy to safely and legally effect the transfer of this car.

I will keep you informed as to what transpires

Regards

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Duchess
Following Dalglish's advice, paste the notice onto the windscreen using the largest sheet of paper you can find, straight in front of the driver's eyeline using strong waterproof glue. Not easy to remove and impossible to drive the vehicle with it in place.

Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Duchess

Further advice which I will take. Consider it done

Thanks

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Cliff Pope
This has been an interesting thread with lots of useful advice, particularly with reference to the legal obligations of sellers, which are often overlooked.
It makes a poignant contrast with a very familiar transaction often viewed from the other end, as reported in classic car magazines.
The guist of many similar articles is;

"Found this old XYZ, it had been stored for 4 years, but nothing really wrong with it. Brakes looked a bit rusty, but they should clean up. Felt all right anyway. Fired it up , and it drove all right, so decided I might as well drive it rather than fetch a trailer. Quick call to the insurance company, and arranged an MOT back at Dave's garage. Off we went, no problems. Seems a snip at £60, there's another project for the October issue."

Familiar sounding story, it's never struck me as a dangerous thing to be doing. I suppose it all depends where you are viewing something from.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
Yes Cliff, you could say that I've learnt an awful lot myself over the past 24 hours or so and just how easy it is to fall foul of the law. . The thing is that this was an old lady's car and it really is in amazing condition for its age. The fact that it's been garaged for the past 4 years obviously creates many potential problems for the new purchaser.but I feel that with under £200 spent could create a nice cheap runabout.

I've been anxious not to sell a 'duff'un' and have been transparently honest about the known faults and have tried not to misrepresent it at all. To be honest, I could have done without the hassle just having emerged from an awful family time over the past few months.

The lady purchaser has just phoned me from the A55 on her way to collect the car and so I await with trepidation'

Regards

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Anglesey Ian
And the outcome was..................................................

...................................a young naive couple arrived in a beaten up Escort and were both delighted with the car. He had brought a set of new brake discs to fix by the side of the road and this is he doing now as I write . He was also going to reassure himself that the car is safe to drive. He described himself as a mechanic with the Royal Engineers. He told me that he had an appointment with an MOT garage and therefore the car was OK to drive untaxed and unMOT'd. (I have seen past posts here about this although I advised tham that an MOT appointment for tomorrow morning in Liverpool will probably not satisfy the Police).. I was told (in front of a witness) that the car was insured to drive. I also advised (in writing) that the car was being sold as spares and was un-roadworthy and was not to be driven on a public road.

I had affixed printout of Dalglish's posting to the windscreen and got the purchaser to sign a 2 page typed A4 statement of disclaimer where I advised as per advice above. I cannot do any more.

Thank you to all who posted to my problem and once again, shows the diversity of expertise contained within these portals

Regards

Ian
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Pugugly {P}
a 100 miles to an MoT station may be something that a Court would have a little giggle at ! Being REME may explain the Woolwich address. You've discharged your responsibility in respect of the RTA and your social conciousness. I have a fix on your village now in my mind, nice pub on the Straits ?
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Dalglish
.. I had affixed printout of Dalglish's posting to the windscreen

>>

note: i had pointed these out to you, angelsey ian, only because you had expressed a wish to do everything according to law. otherwise, as cliff pope says, many people carry on with either blissful ignorance or deliberate "don't wish to know" attitude. as is often the case, the law is meant for the law abiding citizen. for the majority of the rest, it is there to be ignored until caught.

Car transfer jitters - advice please - Pugugly {P}
don't wish to know"

I did this yesterday, overtook a Police car in NSL, making some "progress" got pulled and had a finger wagged at me........sorry, sorry, sorry.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Bill Payer
a young naive couple arrived in a beaten up Escort and
were both delighted with the car.

Don't forget to leave them positive feedback!
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Dry bearings
Don't forget to leave them positive feedback!
'Tow back 'and 'cash back' also spring to mind,well mine anyway.Sorry Ian.
Car transfer jitters - advice please - Clanger
I don't know how much of an expert one needs to be to judge a car "unroadworthy". How does one define an unroadworthy car if it seems and drives OK? If you are a private seller and the car you've just sold has brake failure on the way home to the buyer's, would the latent fault have made the car unroadworthy when it was sold, or does the car become unroadworthy at the point of failure? Is a car unroadworthy if a bulb is out, an MoT fail point?

Questions questions.
Hawkeye
-----------------------------
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