Uk and global road deaths - Greg R
Hi

I was wondering what the figures were for in terms of UK road deaths and global road deaths per year.

I once heard that more people had died in road traffic accidents over the years since cars were invented, than in every world war. Are there any statistics to prove or disprove this?

Thanks in advance.

Gregory
Uk and global road deaths - Big Bad Dave
Off the top of my head isn't it about 3,200 a year in the UK? Ten a day?

I know it's about 5,500 a year inPoland. Shocking when you think they have half the population and very few drivers doing very low mileages in comparison. Shows you how badly they drive.

We just had a bank holiday weekend in which 80 people died on the roads.
Uk and global road deaths - Oz
My distant recollection of Australia was that every holiday period resulted in media reports of the road death toll. South Australia annually (pop. ca.1 million) managed about one per day and other states were similar on a pro rata basis. That would be around 60 per day in the UK!
Oz (as was)
Uk and global road deaths - local yokel
oberon.sourceoecd.org/vl=50616062/cl=18/nw=1/rpsv/...m

Graph of road deaths per million population comparing 1995 to 2004. Russian Fed. was the highest, and the only country to increase over period.
Uk and global road deaths - Bill Payer
It's 100,000 a year in China (over 300 per DAY).
Uk and global road deaths - mss1tw
Wonder if the outdated car designs as referred to yesterday are a factor in this?
Uk and global road deaths - Group B
Mind if I do the easy bit and post the World War fatalities? Are we talking military only or military and civillian fatalities, because that makes a *massive* difference. According to Wikipedia:
World War 1 military deaths only - 8,951,346; military plus civilian deaths - 15,596,071
World War 2 military deaths only - 24,456,100; military plus civilian deaths - 62,536,700

So the totals are 33,407,446 military, or 78,132,771military plus civilian deaths. I have no idea how total global road deaths will compare with those figures? I would guess it could exceed the military deaths figure, if the current annual road deaths figure is estimated at 1.2 million. Personally I would bear in mind that the two World Wars lasted 4 and 6 years, but people have been dying in road accidents for 130 years plus. Poor old Mary Ward fell under a steam car in Ireland in 1869; she wouldn't have known what hit her...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_accident

:o(
Uk and global road deaths - drbe
oberon.sourceoecd.org/vl=50616062/cl=18/nw=1/rpsv/...m
Graph of road deaths per million population comparing 1995 to 2004.
Russian Fed. was the highest, and the only country to
increase over period.


Interesting (possibly) that UK was the lowest accident rate country in 1995, but in 2004, we were 4th.

Now, what does this mean? Does it mean that we need more speed/safety cameras and speed humps to slow us down? (TIC)

Otherwise how do you account for the fact that - relative to other countries - our accident rate has gone up?
Uk and global road deaths - Adam {P}
It could have something to do with the fact that not an hour ago I drove through a speed trap on a dual carriageway just after a 30mph limit sign on a quiet Sunday afternoon.

That's the 4th speed trap this week yet I was in a car of questionable roadworthiness the other day - never saw a cop once.
Uk and global road deaths - v0n
I know it's about 5,500 a year inPoland. Shocking when you
think they have half the population and very few drivers doing
very low mileages in comparison. Shows you how badly they drive.


I don't think they drive badly. In fact I think Polish drivers are much better trained than average Brit could ever be after short course and exam that seem to focus more on repositioning mirrors and moving seat every 5 minutes than actually driving. IMHO it's the deadly combo of horiffically bad roads (you don't see many UK country paths and C roads in similar state of disrepair to what's considered Polish A roads), problem with majority of road systems being single lane, narrow and twisted pothole roads with grip factor of 0 and heavy HGV traffic where private cars have to pull "melee attack through" takeovers all the time to keep 50 mph pace and the fact most cars in private hands are home repaired, imported cat B and C German insurance write offs.
Then you have the issue of unroadworthy 20+ year old cars (FSO Polonez, Polski Fiat and such) that pass MOT via sealed envelopes rather than testing procedures, mayhem logics of 1960ies traffic control systems with its penchant to conditional turns and traffic crossing from many directions in the same time with common path and cross collision point in the middle, usually also spot on in the middle of streetcar rail tracks. Add 75% unmanned rail crossings and voila - 80 people dead in one weekend suddenly seems almost like a success.
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
Uk and global road deaths - Big Bad Dave
Spend a day with me vOn. Polish drivers never turn down an opportunity to show me how daft they are. Overtaking is the biggie but they don't do anything very well. 95% of Polish males of all ages drive like UK 17 year old boy racers who have just passed their tests. Desperate to go as fast as possible, and even more desperate to overtake anything that dares to be in front. (Reminds me of walking a few dogs at the same time, the top dog always fights to go through gates and fences before the others). There are just too many examples to give. Apart from poorly judged overtaking there's unbelievable tailgating, driving along pavements to avoid traffic lights, turning left from the right hand lane across three lanes of traffic (well the right hand lane is empty). Ever seen a Polish bloke park between the white lines in a parking space? Neither have I and I've been here three years. Reverse into a space and drive out forwards? Never happens. Stopping at a pedestrian crossing? No but they'll overtake me when I am and cause the people crossing to scatter.

What did you say about the Polish driving test being stricter than hours? Don't make me laugh! All you need to guarentee a pass here is 100 zloty in the examiner's sweaty palm.

Yeah there are plenty of bad cars but all the big accidents I see are idiots driving modern cars very badly. And the old "Oooooh but are roads are so bad" doesn't wash. Good drivers adjust their driving to the conditions. Roads don't kill people. Idiots do. I never observe the speed limits out of town, that's a sure way to get yourself killed here, but Poles are just reckless, dangerous and downright rubbish drivers. No two ways about it. The problem is there are no penalties for poor driving/parking here so it will never change.

It has to be said though, they always indicate to go round gentle bends - really useful.

I'm not down on Poles and Poland. This is my home and my family are nearly all Polish and I love it for a thousand other different reasons... just none of them motoring related.
Uk and global road deaths - local yokel
BBD

Sounds just like driving in Corsica - except that the Northern half of Corsica is one big mountain, so not many straight stretches of roads. If you can drive more than a couple of km without seeing a wreck down the side of the road below you must be driving with your eyes closed, which is how your average Corsican drives all the time.
Uk and global road deaths - Group B
95% of Polish males of all ages drive like UK 17 year old
boy racers who have just passed their tests.


That explains our new Polish neighbour then. We live on a short side turning 50 yards long, serving 5 houses. He looks like he's in his mid 30's but often comes absolutely tearing round the corner in his Astra estate with stereo blaring out full blast. He's now got the hang of parking on his drive, but the first weekend he parked 2 foot onto our lawn! Apart from that they seem to be nice people though.
Uk and global road deaths - v0n
Spend a day with me vOn. Polish drivers never turn down
an opportunity to show me how daft they are.


Where about are you btw? Warsaw?
Poles are just reckless, dangerous and downright rubbish drivers. No two
ways about it. The problem is there are no penalties for
poor driving/parking here so it will never change.


What do you mean there are no penalties for poor driving and parking? A British friend of mine rented a car in Wroclaw, for a week, and managed to get fined for changing lanes across solid line (Wroclaw, would be 3 points I believe, if he was Polish), fined for not switching headlamps on in rail undepass (Krakow, undpass approx 8 meters long, 3 points again) and accumulate 4 parking fines from a form of local parking gestapo known as Town Guards?

I admitt, when it comes to driving in Poland my experience over last 13 years is limited to south west part of Lower Silesia. One of the most prenounced (and funny) things I see every time is at the point of crossing German border in Goerlitz, where perfect, calm, derestricted autobahn changes all of a sudden into, apparently, what's called motorway Jelenia Gora-Wroclaw. The "motorway" is a muddy stock route made of randomly positioned concrete slabs glued together with blobs of sticky, melting tar. All kinds of safety issues, corners sloped outwards, massive level differences, black ice between slabs, you name it. Funnily enough, at that point every van, HGV on the road, not to mention unbelievable numbers of old cars pulling trailers with even older, smashed up German vehicles onboard, all those that followed perfect line discipline and safe distances on autobahn just a mile behind, they all start rushing, swarming, undertaking, overtaking, chasing each other in process, snaking and tailgating slow lorries. Almost like they felt safer on their own, crashy, bouncy, dangerous turf...
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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
Uk and global road deaths - Lud
On-the-spot fines I bet, v0n, just like the cops in Prague who see a foreign number plate as an opportunity to snatch a tenner... I imagine hire cars are recognizable so the same thing would apply.

Can't blame people really after decades of highly moralistic mediocre tyranny, I suppose.
Uk and global road deaths - Big Bad Dave
That's my take on it Lud. Decades of crap cars and then suddenly you're driving a new Vectra/Octavia. What are you gonna do?
Uk and global road deaths - Dave E
That's my take on it Lud. Decades of crap cars and
then suddenly you're driving a new Vectra/Octavia. What are you gonna
do?


You have a point there. I drive a 40ft trailer every other weekend and I find myself well and truly booting my car on the way home. Must be something to do with having just "trundled" everywhere at a restricted 56mph.
Uk and global road deaths - Lud
No doubt what both Daves say is true, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

I was talking about the moral and intellectual climate in those countries after decades of 'communism' and the resulting behaviour of policemen.
Uk and global road deaths - Big Bad Dave
Yeah Warsaw but I drive 100 miles every weekend to the old dacha/dzialka in Lodz.

When I say no penalties, I mean in comparison with the UK I suppose. Yeah you can get speeding tickets but you can also bribe your way out of them. Especially on a weekend when they want their drinking money.

You know it's little things. I was trapped in a parking bay for half an hour the other day when someone 'abandoned' his van half in and half out of a handicapped bay. I was going mental obviously and it was my wife that said "if there was a clamp and a big fine they wouldn't do it" When I first came from London I thought how fantastic it will be to be free from all those fines and restrictions but in reality, there just has to be some middle ground. Parking across play grounds, on pavements, speeding in car parks. I witnessed a head on collision in a supermarket carpark two weeks ago and both cars had to be lifted away on a truck. I'd hate to see it get like the UK but I'd like to see some greater accountability for really poor driving.

I think I cross the German border on the same point you do, it is funny how it becomes slabs of concrete but that is going to change. There are some wonderful motorways continuing the E30 and when they are finished they'll join Germany to Russia. You must try them out, they're absolutely superb. (there you go! A positive point) In fact many of the A roads are good now - Gdansk - Warsaw is pleasant driving. I drove to Lublin near Ukraine this weekend on really nice A roads. Warsaw - Krakow is a good road. And there'll be an end to the disgusting dumping of scrap German cars in Poland soon when the import tax laws are change to make it unproftable to register old wrecks.
Uk and global road deaths - kevin babij
"And there'll be an end to the disgusting dumping of scrap German cars in Poland "

I`ve seen some dodgy looking old Passats and Golf with Polish plates around our way,obviously owned by the influx of migrate workers to the UK.

Are these heaps subject to UK MOT laws
Uk and global road deaths - kevin babij
I`ve heard it said that the Germans/Swiss peddle off their motors to the French as well.
Uk and global road deaths - Xileno {P}
Some of the worst driving I've experienced is in Kosovo. Overtaking where no sane person would and a complete disregard for road signs. Condition of the roads was appalling and the cars not much better. Travelling between the UK and US bases was fun in a Defender.
Uk and global road deaths - Group B
Some of the worst driving I've experienced is in Kosovo.


I wouldn't claim to be well travelled, but the worst driving I've seen was in Egypt 6 years ago. A large proportion of the cars were old Fiats, Peugeot 505's, Ladas etc., and you got the feeling that in most cases roadworthiness was a case of 'do just enough to keep the car going'.
The most entertaining trait of the Egyptians was them driving down unlit desert roads (very dark) with no lights on, then when they realise they are close to an oncoming car, give a blast of main beam to indicate their presence!
We went on a coach journey from Luxor to Al Quesir on the Red Sea coast, with military escort. The coaches had got to keep up with the lead jeep so they were really going for it, overtaking in front of oncoming lorries, on blind bends, nearly forcing cars off the road. When we stopped for a toilet stop I noticed one of the other coaches had the steel belting showing through on a rear tyre. Then after dark we regularly had female passengers screaming, including the tour guide!
Uk and global road deaths - Altea Ego
The worse driving I saw was in malaysia on highway 3 to Mersing ( to catch a boat to Tioman)

Lorry in front of Q two cars in front of me and behind lorry. So one overtakes on the left (the jungle side) throwing flora, fauna and various game over our hire car, the other overtakes on the right on a hill into a blind l/h bend.

It was a long and very scary drive
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Uk and global road deaths - Adam {P}
The worst driving I've ever seen was my sister driving to town the other week.

That was a long a scary drive. Odd, given it was only 2 miles.
Uk and global road deaths - Bromptonaut
I`ve heard it said that the Germans/Swiss peddle off their motors
to the French as well.


Returning from hoiday last week we passed a Belgian transporter headed north with a load of middle aged Swiss cars. Number plates removed but most still had the CH sticker on the rear. IIRC CH has a v strict MoT.
Uk and global road deaths - Leif
I think you've just explained why drivers in Luton are so poor. All the faults you describe are typical here. Whenever I see someone white and male here, 9 times out of 10 they look like a young version of General Yaruzelki and if I hear them speak the language sounds Slavic. Leif
Uk and global road deaths - spikeyhead {p}
>> Spend a day with me vOn. Polish drivers never turn
down
>> an opportunity to show me how daft they are. Overtaking
I think you've just explained why drivers in Luton are so
poor. All the faults you describe are typical here. Whenever I
see someone white and male here, 9 times out of 10
they look like a young version of General Yaruzelki and if
I hear them speak the language sounds Slavic. Leif


The only places I really enjoy driving are London, Luton and North Wales.

In Luton and London, everyone drives asertively.

In North Wales, if you kow the right roads, tehre's loads of fun to be had on empty winding roads.
--
I read often, only post occasionally
Uk and global road deaths - ndbw
Two figures have stuck in my mind over the years,in 1939 some 7500 were killed and in1940 some 8400 deaths obviously the blackout accounted for the increase although a 20mph blanket speed limit was in force during the hours of darkness.

Since these years and in spite of an enormous increase in the number of vehicles on our roads the figure has reduced to just over 3000 per year,it says a lot fot the safety factors built into modern cars plus their brakes and handling.

We do appear to have the lowest death rate of any other country as far as I am aware.

ndbw
Uk and global road deaths - Aprilia
Yes, I've been down that Jelenia Gora - Wroclaw motorway and then on the main road that runs through Katowitz to Krakow. The 'motorway' was awful - I was in a German-reg Vectra and I thought it was going to fall apart going over the joints for mile after mile. The back roads in the Sudeten mountains were interesting too! Some crazy driving. I'm now seeing quite a few Polish-reg cars in the UK. I wonder how they're insured and tested - some look a bit unroadworthy, shall we say......
Uk and global road deaths - Dalglish
According to Wikipedia:
World War 1 military deaths only - 8,951,346; military plus civilian deaths - 15,596,071
World War 2 military deaths only - 24,456,100; military plus civilian deaths - 62,536,700

>>

as soon as someone quotes statistics to that accuracy, you know it is time to move on from the discussion.
(eg. world war 1 figures, i claim that it was 8,951,347 - not 8,951,346 - military deaths. they missed the poor gunner who was never found. now prove me wrong. )

Uk and global road deaths - Group B
as soon as someone quotes statistics to that accuracy, you know
it is time to move on from the discussion.


As I was quoting verbatim from Wikipedia, I didn't see the point of changing it to "about 8.95 million". If you read the Wikipedia pages, it states that the figures are much debated. I posted the figures because I was interested myself in the numbers of war deaths. It was not my intention to provide "the" answer to the op's question, just offered some statistics, and alluded to my opinion that it would not really surprise me if total global road deaths exceeded world war deaths, due to the timescales involved.
Its funny that you have not posted to offer anything new to the discussion but just to split hairs with figures that I clearly said were from another source.
Uk and global road deaths - Greg R
Hi

I have driven in Poland myself a few times and my dad has. We drive from the German Border up to Lublin every year. I can say, to be fair, Polish roads are pretty ok, maybe just slightly worse than the UK's. But on the other hand, we pay a lot more for our roads, and should have better roads compared to a country that is so well developed like ours. From memory, the Polish unemployment rate is 20% unemployed, and the average salary is circa £3000 per annum.

The drivers are overall much better than UK drivers. I remember driving with an accountant in poland, and a lawyer, and they were driving at high speeds (70mph- high for Poland), but so good at overtaking and looking ahead that I wouldn't be able to equal it. But that is because I don't drive on a lot of country routes, and if I do, I try not to overtake too much as there are always risks to be taken.

I think it is the small minority that makes us see them as terrible, but all I can say is I prefer Polish drivers to London drivers. There is no doubt however, there are some terrible drivers there, who tail gate, overtake with no safety in mind etc. But then this happens everywhere.

I think the most difficult driving condition in Poland and on German Autobahns is heavy rain...now that is a challenge. And I can ride scooters all year round in england, in pitch black and was able to do 25000 miles in 2 years on a 125cc, but rain in Poland and Germany and the roads become swimming pools and the lines on the Autobahns disapear. So my driving is quite ok I think.
Uk and global road deaths - Aprilia
>>The drivers are overall much better than UK drivers. I remember driving with an accountant in poland, and a lawyer, and they were driving at high speeds (70mph- high for Poland), but so good at overtaking and looking ahead that I wouldn't be able to equal it. But that is because I don't drive on a lot of country routes, and if I do, I try not to overtake too much as there are always risks to be taken.



When I visited Poland the reason was partly to meet up with a young relative of mine (doctor) who was on a secondment to the Accident & Emergency dept at the hospital in Nysa (South West Poland). She was telling me of the incredible number of road casualties they were bringing in - lots of very nasty head-on smashes. Much worse than in England she said. Also a lot of child casualties because the Poles tend to leave the kids unbelted in the back. That was about five years ago though, so things may have improved a bit since then.
Uk and global road deaths - Big Bad Dave
No they haven't Aprilia, head on from overtaking is still the biggest killer. Greg isn't driving in the same Poland that I drive in.
Uk and global road deaths - stevied
BBD, I have read about the "interesting" overtaking lanes in Poland, ie you have a lane each way with an overtaking lane in the middle. Is this what causes so many head-ons? There IS the odd one here in the UK but I would never use one unless I could see a mile or so ahead....

I will read your answer with interest, as I have TOTAL respect for you since the Antipodean comments. : ) Only ever managed one at a time. Maybe I read too many books...
Uk and global road deaths - Greg R
I think Polands worst driving problem is overtaking. I have had incidents in Poland where lorries overtake and leave an inch between you and the lorry...and Poland have ditches and not pavements. They use hard shoulders as lanes as well. And in some cases, the Police drive just as bad. Do the police still have Polonez's or have they now changed to skoda's?

In any case, lights should be used, speed should be kept to the limits and one should always be fully awake. My cousin who lives near Gdansk has managed 350,000km without accident, but I think this is because he knows the roads and has lots of experience plus a huge amount of luck.

Maybe I just don't like thinking of these things too much, but I am still fully aware of it.

Greg
Uk and global road deaths - Big Bad Dave
Stevie

Oh for a curfew button to stop me posting my drunken ramblings after hitting the bottle. I've got the old DTs today. Lucky Robcars is here to deflect my shame.

They don't have a central overtaking lane here as such, it's stranger than that. The large intercity roads have a single lane plus a "pavement area" seperated by dotted white lines. When you're being overtaken you budge over into the pavement bit which leaves plenty of room for three cars side by side. Work swell if the oncoming traffic isn't doing it. These are 70mph roads.

Normal country roads are just like ours, lined with huge killer trees occasionally decorated with flowers and photos of dead loved ones.
Uk and global road deaths - v0n
They don't have a central overtaking lane here as such, it's
stranger than that. The large intercity roads have a single lane
plus a "pavement area" seperated by dotted white lines. When you're
being overtaken you budge over into the pavement bit which leaves
plenty of room for three cars side by side. Work swell
if the oncoming traffic isn't doing it. These are 70mph roads.


Let me also add this picture - www.kwp.radom.pl/fotki/f_vw02.jpg - Almost four lane traffic on two lane road - three cars overtaking two cars on "zebra" with the cars being overtaken politely nudging to "pavement area"...

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[Nissan 2.2 dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
Uk and global road deaths - Vincent de Marco
I can say, to be fair, Polish roads are pretty ok, maybe just slightly worse than the UK's.


Greg, are you sure you're not mistaking Poland for Holand ?
- - - - - - -
Free enterprise is the basis of western economy.
Uk and global road deaths - Greg R
"I can say, to be fair, Polish roads are pretty ok, maybe just slightly worse than the UK's."

I think the reason Polish drivers seem worse is because they have roads made up of a single lane. On the motorways in Poland the driving standard is fine.

The overtaking in Poland is a culture thing I think, like in England we see lots of people using the middle lane throughout the motorway!

The worst trait of the Polish driver is their overtaking. However, if one adapts to it, then it is like using a motorcycle in London.

Thinking about it more, I think I can put up with Polish drivers easily because I ride a motorbike in London with no stress, and anyone who rides and can ride to a good standard in London will agree this is a real challenge.

Are Polish drivers worse than English? I think the really bad drivers are worse, but on the flip side the better drivers are better than English by far.

There is no doubt that some Polish drivers are lunatics, and sometimes I just wonder how some of them get away with it. Again this is the minority, but they are sure very scary!

The traffic in Poland is heavy, and I think they are in dire need to improve their roads. They have built some great motorways though!

Uk and global road deaths - Big Bad Dave
There are is a major road-building program all over Poland, some of it EU funded. All the new roads I see are big, wide and well-built. I seem to remember that as a condition to EU entry, all roads have ten years to meet a certain standard.

After re-reading this thread I'm going to redress some of the negative things I've said by stating that I'd rather do my driving here than in the UK. It's so much easier to make progress.

"The traffic in Poland is heavy" Yeah at times it can be but one think I've noticed is that the rush hour really is that - about an hour, it doesn't drag on till 8pm like London.
Uk and global road deaths - Xileno {P}
"I seem to remember that as a condition to EU entry, all roads have ten years to meet a certain standard. "

Shame it's not a condition to stay in the EU, otherwise either our roads would have to be improved or we would get kicked out... :-)
 

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