Could you loop the loop in a car? - johnny
.. like the Matchbox Superfast track. How fast would you need to go?
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Stuartli
Anything is possible, but you'd have to be loopy to even try...:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
Yes you could

The problem is the track. you seen how much the superfast track wobbles under the forces exerted by that little car?? Imagine that with a ton or more of rear car at 100mph plus.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - psi
www.newscientist.com/backpage.ns?id=lw574
Could you loop the loop in a car? - johnny
Ok - anyone willing to give it a try ?
Actually I had a go on a Velodrome the other week and was surprised how easy it was to ride (what seemed like) near horizontal.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Galaxy
The Wall of Death !!!


Could you loop the loop in a car? - jon_s
Anyone remember that arcade game from the late 80s with the Ferrari Testarossa? Hard Drivin' I think it was called. One of the first games with force-feedback steering, IIRC. You could do it on that....

I'll get me coat.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Hamsafar
Look how flimsy those walls of death are with just a motorbike! It would have to be very strong, I hope someone can find the formula as I'm curious too.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Stuartli
>>Look how flimsy those walls of death are with just a motorbike! >>

I used to watch such displays when I was a youngster (and that's a long time ago).

I would suggest that the centrifugal force of the bike (sometimes there were two) and riders would be minimal at any given time on the wooden wall because of the pressures involved being spread over an area.

What's more, I doubt if any mathematical formula was used to calculate just how much force such a wall would take...:-)

I also recall a demonstration on TV in a scientific programme some time ago of people using eggs as stepping stones without breaking them - it was possible for the very same reason of pressure being spread.

Also see:

tinyurl.com/fkswu
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Could you loop the loop in a car? - mk124
Hard Driving was my first real car game on the very old Amstrad. They used the game on arcade machines too. It reminds me of a game called stunts in the mid 1990's, where you could go anywhere off the track, and yes there were loop the loops in that as well. In both games you could fall off the loops if not going fast enough I think.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - tr7v8
Peter Dumbreck managed it in a M\ercedes SLR at Le Man in 2004 (I think) & that was with no track!
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Imagos
Elwood Blues managed it in a 1990 Ford crown Victoria in the movie Blues Brothers 2000.

Car was on fire too!
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Dwight Van Driver
Dealt with a few that did a barrel roll but never a loop the loop.

dvd
Could you loop the loop in a car? - No FM2R
Do forward rolls count ?

I saw a metro do it once. On a dual carriageway between Salisbury and Southampton. Very wide central reservation (25 yards ?). A metro coming towards me got a puncture in the fornt wheel, swerved onto the reservation and then did about forward (end over end) rolls while getting closer and closer to me. When it stopped the car was destroyed, the roof crushed down, all the glass broken, one of the doors and the hatch torn off, and bits missing frm everywhere, but the guy driving it walked away from it seemingly uninjured - which I would have bet against..
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Peter D
OP You can do a Loop the Loop np problem but I'll give it a miss thanks. Regards Peter
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Dynamic Dave
One of the James Bond films managed a sort of loop the loop (yes, I know, anything is possible in the movies). Can't remember which one, but it had Roger Moore in it.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - No FM2R
across the river ? Wasn't it more of a twist - it revolved around a front to back axis as opposed ot a left to right axis.

Anyway, The Man with the Golden Gun, I think.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Dynamic Dave
across the river ?


That was the one. Could be wrong, but I don't think it was The Man with the Golden Gun though.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Dynamic Dave
That was the one. Could be wrong, but I don't think it was The Man with the Golden Gun though.


But then again, looking at Nsar's post....
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Nsar
Man With the Golden Gun I think and it wasn't trick camerawork I heard, but someone will be along soon to disprove it.

On the OP, an F1 fan I once knew who wasn't a total muppet once told me that an F1 car generates enough downforce that at top speed it could drive upside down. I raised an eyebrow (Roger Moore style) and let the moment pass. Was he talking complete cobblers?

Could you loop the loop in a car? - Nsar
DD - he was chasing Scaramanga who then parks his horrible little mustard coloured something, fits some wings on it and flies away.

If the car wasn't quite so revolting you might consider that quite cool if you were impressed by that sort of thing.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - tr7v8
Pretty sure the car was an AMC Pacer. Yes definitely Man with the Golden Gun & it was really done, no trick camera work.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
It was man with the golden gun, It was filmed and not tricked, and it was an AMC Hornet.




------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - No FM2R
you looked that up.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - No FM2R
>>and it wasn't trick camerawork I heard

I seem to recall that they made much of that. Hadn't it been designed by computer or some such ?

On which link, did you know that a 3 Series BMW has more computing power than any Apollo ever launched.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - spikeyhead {p}
On which link, did you know that a 3 Series BMW
has more computing power than any Apollo ever launched.


So dies a modern mobile phone
--
I read often, only post occasionally
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Stuartli
>>So dies a modern mobile phone>>

Or a 16k or 48k Sinclair Spectrum...
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
There was one computer in the Lunar Excursion Module (LEM) and one in the command module circling above. It was the first use of integrated circuits, It's cycle time was 1 Mhz, 11 instructions. It had 1K of 16 bit words of erasable (RAM) core memory and 12K of read-only memory (ROM). The ROM held the "Colossus 249" flight control software. There were no disks or tapes in the flight system.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - mss1tw
What service pack did it have installed?
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
It didnt need any, this was before Microsoft invented Viruses

And no

They have no intention of migrating the system to Linux.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - mss1tw
Does it run Unreal Tournament?
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
No, it was only pre loaded with space invaders
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - mss1tw
No, it was only pre loaded with space invaders


:^D
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Number_Cruncher
Even modern space electronics are remarkably pedestrian when compared with what's possible on the ground.

For example, the project I'm currently working on is having great difficulty obtaining a suitable, qualified, and radiation hardened 16 bit analogue to digital converter, and on another part of that circuit board, it is looking like we are going to have to repackage some commercial diodes because the qualified ones are unobtainable, which, if we can't change the design means that the four diodes we need will cost us about £5K, and have a six month lead time.

Number_Cruncher
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Nsar
Tell me about it, NC, that's a bitch when that happens isn't it?
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
What kind of engineer designs a device with out of date and unobtainable devices.

TuT Tut

I know someone at Surrey Satelite Systems if you need a hand?


------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Number_Cruncher
What kind of engineer designs a device with out of date
and unobtainable devices.


Thankfully not me!, but I don't think there was much option. There is a general problem in obtaining even simple components for space use - unless they are common with telecoms satellites, when they become much more plentiful & cheap.

The typical engineering timescale for a space instrument is 10 years, so even if a part is cutting edge during phase A, it is becoming obsolete before you are ready to procure the flight parts - space instruments are costly both in terms of the components, and in terms of fractions of a human lifespan.

I know someone at Surrey Satelite Systems if you need a
hand?


Thanks for the offer - We are currently asking around the usual suspects, RAL, MSSL, Astrium, and the like to see if they have any stock of these diodes from previous missions - if this draws a blank, may I get back to you?

Thanks,

Number_Cruncher
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
Yes No problem by all means

To turn this motoring, Satelite makers use a lot of car derived technology and vice versa. Satelites are routinely built with the same can bus systems, computers and controlers deployed in modern cars.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Number_Cruncher
Sorry to bring back an old thread;

But, we have, at last, found some diodes - yippee!!

They are 3.9 volt Zener diodes. Just over £200 each - bargain!

(Probably £1.99 each in Maplin for equivalent commercial off the shelf stock!)

Number_Cruncher
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Vin {P}
IIRC, the autopilot on the Space Shuttle uses 8K (remember Ks?) of memory.

V
Could you loop the loop in a car? - kithmo
Anyone remember that arcade game from the late 80s with the
Ferrari Testarossa? Hard Drivin' I think it was called. One
of the first games with force-feedback steering, IIRC. You could do
it on that....


I couldn't !!

Was it a Testarossa in "Hard drivin'" I thought car was something a bit more chunky, aUS model IIRC.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - kithmo
Anyone remember that arcade game from the late 80s with the
Ferrari Testarossa? Hard Drivin' I think it was called. One
of the first games with force-feedback steering, IIRC. You could do
it on that....


I couldn't !!

Was it a Testarossa in "Hard drivin'" I thought car was something a bit more chunky, a US model IIRC.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - CGNorwich
I believe no force is actually being exerted on the track. This is why a wall of death can be a comparitively flimsy wooden structure. The only acting force in this situation is the centrepetal force which is keeping the vehicle moving in a circle. This in equilibrium with the "fictional" centrifugal force. _ at least that's what I remember from o level physics.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Group B
I believe no force is actually being exerted on the
track. This is why a wall of death can be a
comparitively flimsy wooden structure.


If there were no forces acting on the loop, then you could remove the loop and the car would keep spinning round in a loop on its own, wouldn?t it? There has got to be centrifugal force acting on the loop, which may approach zero at the top as it is counteracted by gravity; but if it reached zero, the car could fall off..

(Or have I just set the alarm off like on Q.I.?!)

Does anyone know how a wall of death is constructed? I assumed that it will have tensioned steel wire cables (or similar) around the outside of the wooden structure, which will act in ring tension around the wall. Is this the case?
So the force of the bike on one part of the wall is counteracted by compression around the rest of the wall. If this is the case, although it seems flimsy it will actually be plenty strong enough to resist the forces of the bikes. If that is not how it works, then I haven?t got a clue!

;o)

Could you loop the loop in a car? - bobda
As an aside, I've been led to believe (although I can't remember where), that such are the downforces generated, you can drive a Formula one car upside down if you get it going fast enough.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - DP
Yes, entirely possible in theory. The wings on an F1 car can generate something in the order of 5,000 kg of downforce, and the car itself weighs around 600kg.

I remember reading in a motorsport magazine that the approximate speed required to do this is 100 mph depending on wing setting.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - David Horn
Whether it's possible depends on the size of the loop, as the force is equal to the rate of change of acceleration, and since you're going around a circle, you're constantly accelerating . Err - I think that's right, I haven't looked at this stuff for a year or more.

I'll work it out later today.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - bathtub tom
Don't Alton Towers do it every few minutes?
Could you loop the loop in a car? - trancer
" IIRC, the autopilot on the Space Shuttle uses 8K (remember Ks?) of memory."

Why would they need more?. Its not like there is a whole lot up there for them to circumnavigate...or crash into.

I would bet money that the right car (probably one with no suspension and solid tyres) could do a full loop and that a loop capable of withstanding the forces could be built.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - bedfordrl
If ,as you say a formula 1 car can in theory drive upside down, then surely to do a loop the loop in one would be a meer party trick, though if it pushes down with an equivalent weight of 5 tons the track would have to be very strong.
As an aside , working backwards ie knowing the computing power available at the time, would you be able to go to the moon with less computing power than a pocket calculator?.
I do and do not believe that it happend but the more you find out what technology was available you cannot wonder how on (and off) earth they did it,if they indeed did.
ps i would'nt ask Buzz Aldrin as he gets a bit upset when people do not believe it, didn't he lump a jounalist for asking.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - local yokel
FWIW the expression in the aviation/aerobatics world is "do a loop".

The answer is yes, so long as the track and car (inc fuel system...)can handle about 3G, the vehicle has enough entry speed, and the power/traction is maintained until its done 270 of rotation.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - wotspur
My parents just back from yet another SKI-ING holiday- yeah there will literally nothing left!! only joking, this time they went to China- visited one the many circuses, and there in a wall of death there were 8 motorbikes going around at various speeds, angles etc at the same time - yes they were impressed.

About 20 years ago, coming down the A3, towards the Cathedral from the Hogs back, opposite the Happy Eater, I noticed a car somehow coming over the central reservation towards me, fortunately missed, and all I saw was a car spinning behind me several times.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - bedfordrl
The answer is yes, so long as the track and car
(inc fuel system...)can handle about 3G, the vehicle has enough entry
speed, and the power/traction is maintained until its done 270 of
rotation.

Ah , but what i am saying is, if the downforce from the spoilers is so immense that upside down the force is upwards pushing the car down,up.
Erm ,yes that's right , so as long as you are moving forward with enough speed to push the vehicle down/up enough that it does not fall off/up then it will carry on , i think ?.
Will the force pushing the car down/up also stop the fuel/oil falling up ?.
Gosh i am going to have to lie down
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Imagos
>>a formula 1 car can in theory drive upside down, then surely to do a loop the loop in one would be a meer party trick>>

Christian Fittipaldi managed a loop the loop in a Minardi F1 car at the chequrerd flag at the Italian Grand Prix, Monza in 1993.

He passed over the line whilst upside down and was classified 8th!!
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Dulwich Estate
It's a very long time since my heavy maths days, but does this loop have to be so strong? If the car was travelling at just enough speed to complete the loop succesfully then at the top the forces would be balanced. Acceleration of g = to acceleration force keeping it there. Result: no load on top of loop at all. It's either that or the pre-dinner drink !
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Vin {P}
"Will the force pushing the car down/up also stop the fuel/oil falling up ?."

No. The upward force would be generated by the movement of the car through air. All the oil and fuel would gather at the top (now the bottom) of their respective containers.

On a related point, this was a weak point in the Merlin engine. As the pilot pushed the stick forward, the fuel in the carburettors would suffer negative G and the engine would be starved of fuel, leading to misfiring. Bf109s, being fuel injected, didn't suffer the problem. Spitfires and Hurricanes had to roll into a dive to avoid the problem, which added enough time to the manoeuvre to leave them at a disadvantage.

Fatscinating stuff, inertia and gravity.

V
Could you loop the loop in a car? - s61sw
''ps i would'nt ask Buzz Aldrin as he gets a bit upset when people do not believe it, didn't he lump a jounalist for asking.''

not motoring related, I know, but yes he did once deck a sceptic who collared him at some sort of convention. Can't say I blame him myself.

S6 1SW
Could you loop the loop in a car? - barchettaman
The incident is described in very funny detail in the excellent book Moondust.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Big Bad Dave
"As an aside , working backwards ie knowing the computing power available at the time, would you be able to go to the moon with less computing power than a pocket calculator?.
I do and do not believe that it happend but the more you find out what technology was available you cannot wonder how on (and off) earth they did it,if they indeed did."

How difficult can it be? Huge rocket, aim at moon, light blue touch paper and stand back. If you gave me a couple of hundred billion dollars, I'd land you on the moon. Physics is a simple science. Biology is where you have to put your thinking cap on.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Lud
You can certainly loop the loop in a car. The problem is to find the loop of road to do it on. When looping the loop all fuel, driver and fluids would be kept in their usual positions by centrifugal force. The problems experienced by carburetted Merlin engined fighters when attempting an 'outside loop' or simply going into a steep dive without rolling would not be present.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the bit of road didn't exist somewhere. US? Japan?

It would have to be somewhere with more money than sense though, because it wd cost quite a bit and would be more or less pointless.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Vin {P}
"The problems experienced by carburetted Merlin engined fighters when attempting an 'outside loop' or simply going into a steep dive without rolling would not be present. "

Except that if you read the original post to which I was responding, you'll note that it was referring (or appeared to be referring) to F1 cars being able to drive on the roof, in which case, it would only be aerodynamic forces holding them up, so the oil and petrol would indeed slosh the wrong way.

V
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Lud
I did notice that Vin, I didn't think you didn't know that, was just pointing it out in case anyone thought that only an F1 car doing 150mph could loop the loop. Depending on the size of the loop, 40 or 50 ought to do the trick... wouldn't feel very nice though.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Altea Ego
Oil and petrol does not slosh in F1 cars. Sloshing fluids would severelyupset the balance and handling. F1 cars tend not spill petrol anywhere when they are smashed to bits either. all fluids in F1 cars are contained by baffles
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Rob C
On an episode of Jackass, the guys built a plywood loop and after a few attempts managed to loop it on a skateboard and a BMX bike. It had a long ramp to enable them to build up speed.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Cliff Pope
This is from New Scientist in 1999, answering precisely this question:


Transport 08 05 1999 Cars go loopy Can a car loop the loop?
I have just seen a TV advert in which a car travels along a straight track which then veers upwards to loop the loop before returning to ground level. The car follows the road without falling off, even when it is upside down at the top of the loop. Special effects aside, can a car loop the loop, and, if so, how fast would it have to travel?

Scott Croston Manchester
SURPRISINGLY , the minimum speed a car must be travelling at to loop the loop depends only on the force of gravity and radius of the loop. The speed required does not vary with the mass of the car. This is because to loop the loop the force flinging the car outwards (centrifugal force) must equal the weight of the car at the top of the loop. The equation for both forces is the same (mass x acceleration), so the mass can be cancelled from the calculation.

Many a schoolchild is puzzled by the difference between weight and mass and this problem highlights the difference. The car's weight is the force pulling it down and is given by mass multiplied by acceleration due to the gravitational attraction of the Earth. For a car of mass M kilograms this is M x 9.81 newtons.

To counter this the car must be travelling fast enough for the centrifugal force to equal this at the top of the loop. If the radius of the loop is r metres and the velocity of the car is v metres per second, the formula for this is M x v2/r. Equating these two opposing forces and cancelling M gives 9.81 = v2/r, remembering that velocity is in metres per second and radius in metres.

So for a 10-metre radius the car must be travelling at the square root of 98.1 metres per second, or about 10 metres per second. That's 36 kilometres per hour.

This is surprisingly low, but remember it's the speed required at the top of the loop after climbing, so a higher speed would be required at the bottom. An obvious question leading on from this is from what height would a car have to freewheel to loop the loop?

This time the answer does not even depend on gravity. The above equations give v2 = r x 9.81 for the minimum speed at the top of the loop. Equating potential energy gained by falling from height h metres with kinetic energy gained at velocity v gives 0.5 M x v2 = M x 9.81 x h or v2 = 2 x 9.81 x h. Combining the two equations gives r x 9.81 = 2 x 9.81 x h or h = r/2

In other words, dropping from half a radius higher than the top of the loop is sufficient (though friction losses would in practice necessitate a greater height). This seems remarkably small and I did not believe it, until trying it with a marble and flexible curtain track made it seem plausible.

Could you loop the loop in a car? - Lud
Superb CP. End of thread!
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Sim-O
Time to start a thread 'How do I build a 10m radius loop for my car?'
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Dynamic Dave
Could you loop the loop in a car?

Well I stumbled across this whilst looking for something else.

www.metacafe.com/watch/285992/cork_screw_car_trick/

{Link deliberately made no clickable because of the guy vomitting at the end after successfully landing on all four wheels (as well as some ofthe other content on that site) View at your own discretion.}
Could you loop the loop in a car? - L'escargot
I'm sorry but I just have to say this.

There is no such thing as centrifugal force acting radially outwards on an object that is moving in a circle. The expression "centrifugal force" is merely something used by scientists/engineers/mathematicians etc to enable them to construct an equation in which both sides are considered to equal. The fact of the matter is that a radially inward force on the object is required to keep it moving in a circle, and this is known as centripetal force. Centripetal force is numerically equal to the nebulous centrifugal force but it acts in the opposite direction. Remove the centripetal force and the object will continue in a straight line tangential to the position on the circle when the centripetal force was removed. Contrary to popular belief the object will not travel radially outwards.
--
L\'escargot.
Could you loop the loop in a car? - BazzaBear {P}
Hurrah Mr Snail!

I wondered if there were any other exponents of centripetal force on here. When I was doing A-level Physics we were taught centripetal force, and the teacher mentioned that, up until recently (at that point) they had taught the centrifugal force theory instead. Interestingly, in A-level Maths at the same time, we were still being taught centrifugal. It's good to have an organised and systematic syllabus!
Could you loop the loop in a car? - Group B
A video of the Jackass team trying to loop the loop on BMX's and skateboards... (And succeeding eventually!)

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5679293518822550333&q=loop+%26+loop
 

Ask Honest John

Value my car