i would be interested to know in whick major bank they keep this money or do they keep it under the floor boards?
never been in a union in my life never would ,(subs taken at source in many cases as a subject of condition of employement) im not going to the drivel i expect to read at that tinyurl i will just say have they baloted their members before they give their members subs to murdoch and fayed?
soz.....
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.. Apologies if it has been done before, I did a search for Amicus and nothing came up ..
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see previous discussion.
i just tried the forum search (under your login user name on the right hand side) -
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=42...0
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Considering there must be hundreds of Peugeot dealers in the UK, this mighty union managed to have pickets at only 3. This just shows the level of apathy with union members. I bet Peugeot are quaking in their boots.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Amicus are an interesting sideshow and a total irrelevance.
If they invested their money in job creation, I would be applauding.
But will their campaign make any real difference?
Will it attract more companies to invest in Britain?
If you seriously believe that Amicus can persuade Peugeot not to close an old factory, then please explain how yoy would persuade Dyson not to have closed his modern factory?
We live in the real world and people and companies have choices. As indeed do Amicus.
Amicus's choice of how to spend their members' money says more imo about the leaders of Amicus than Amicus itself.
After all, who seriously expects them to prevent the move.?
What about spending the £1M on crating new jobs for those made redundant?
Answer: Amicus does not believe it is its job to create new jobs. It's always someone else's.
And that's why the union movement is as successful as it is in the UK.
madf
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Spending £1m or £10m of their members funds on a negative advertising campaign isn't going to make a difference IMHO, it's a given that the money could be better spent.
Madf's point about Dyson is spot on, would you not buy a Dyson because they couldn't be made economically in the UK? More to the point would you pay extra to buy a product that's been made in the UK?
No, neither would I unless it was demonstrably better.
I'm not without sympathy for the Peugeot workers but the idea of Amicus trying to change global economics with a negative advertising campaign is laughable.
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After all, who seriously expects them to prevent the move.? What about spending the £1M on crating new jobs for those made redundant?
And how many jobs would that create, aginst the nunber that are going to be lost?
Amicus's point, whether you agree with it or not, is to persuade those with control of the necessary squazillions of investment capital to use it in the UK.
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>>Amicus's point, whether you agree with it or not, is to persuade those with control of the necessary squazillions of investment capital to use it in the UK
But is a stroppy union likely to start a negative campaign one of the things that an overseas manufacturer is going to be reassured by ?
I have to believe that there are better tactics available to them than that.
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... Amicus's point, whether you agree with it or not, is to persuade ....
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and they have failed miserably.
this from the independent - www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article1164597.ece
Peugeot sales surge as union boycott flops
By Michael Harrison, Business Editor
Published: 07 July
A £1m trade union campaign to persuade motorists not to buy Peugeot cars in protest at the closure of its Ryton plant in Coventry appears to have flopped after the French car maker revealed yesterday that its UK sales surged last month.
The boycott, launched with a fanfare at the start of June with full-page newspaper adverts, urges the public to "think of England" if they intend buying a new car this summer. The Amicus union began the campaign after Peugeot bosses refused to reconsider their decision to close Ryton next year with the loss of 2,300 jobs.
However, the latest figures show sales of Peugeot models rose 17 per cent last month to 12,675, buoyed by the launch of the new 207 model, despite a 4 per cent decline in the overall new car market. ....
personally, i vote to let amicus carry on wasting even more its members money, until it is bankrupted. good riddance if it happens.
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To be honest I don't imagine many people know where cars are produced these days. Certainly the presence of Ryton producing only one model hardly constitutes a major british manufacturer and would imagine no Peugeot buyer is hugely bothered either way. Things like the cost of the car/special offers/nearness of dealer is going to be more influential.
Surely Amicus must understand the costs of production and the relatively thin margins on a small supermini. If everyone else is using lower cost sites and therefore able to price competitively then the Peugeot plant was doomed anyhow.
What would be much more useful for Amicus to use the cash for is to improve skills training for those displaced and to encourage better industry wide training schemes to allow labour to be as flexible as possible. If they were acting more like a "helping hand" rather than a Ian Paisley esque hectoring pain then they are more likely to retain such members and gain more respect from employer groups.
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"Amicus's point, whether you agree with it or not, is to persuade those with control of the necessary squazillions of investment capital to use it in the UK"
Lol.
You are joking? You cannot be serious?
Persuade those to use it in UK.
Persuade those who can invest that Amicus are someone you don't want to deal with is more likely.
Perhaps Amicus need some training in Selling and persuasion. If picketing is their idea of that, I'd hate to be on the other side when they are protesting.
Reminds me vaguely of Arthur Scargill. He correctly forecast the demise of the mining industry .. and then did everything in his power to ensure that demise came about. - largely as a result of actions he initiated..
madf
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I cant believe this rubbish about PSA Peugeot / Citroen shutting the Ryton plant is STILL dragging on.
A lot of long term Peugeot workers knew a few years ago as soon as the 206 was killed off for the new 207 that Ryton would shortly follow.
Word from the inside was that voluntary redundancies packages where offered just after xmas this year & a fair few people took the offer.
The shutting of Ryton has been on the cards for years, PSA Peugeot / Citroen wont keep the plant open, Why should they be made to change they mind now?
Its time the workers faced facts, The plant is SHUTTING, GET OVER IT! Go out & find another job.
The workers had plenty of warning, Why start whining now?
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Go out & find another job.
I have total sympathy for anyone facing redundancy at Ryton, and I support their right to try to protect their jobs by whatever means they can. People make a big commitment to a company, sometimes even moving house, when they agree to work for the company. Just remember that the chance of someone over 50 finding another job is quite small.
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L\'escargot.
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"I support their right to try to protect their jobs by whatever means they can. People make a big commitment to a company"
Quite so, Escargot, provided those means make sense. As far as those jobs go, PSA has given, and PSA has the right to take away - or put another way, what goes up sooner or later comes down. They can' t expect to be unaffected by global business pressures in a competitive market with growing overcapacity.
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Funny how we always hear that the worker has the right to remove his labour, but somehow the company does not have the right to remove the job.
Still, thanks to Amicus for reminding car manufacturers why they left the UK last time, just in case they had forgotten.
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Funny how we always hear that the worker has the right to remove his labour, but somehow the company does not have the right to remove the job. Still, thanks to Amicus for reminding car manufacturers why they left the UK last time, just in case they had forgotten.
Companies have always removed jobs, in the past, whenever they saw fit and they will continue to do so. For those who don't remember, or couldn't care less, labour unions came about during a time when workers had no rights whatsoever. This kind of treatment of labour is commonplace in those parts of the world (China for one), where UK jobs are disappearing to. Now, those of you who castigate the labour unions (and they are not without fault), how would you like to work under the conditions that the average Chinese worker has to put up with?
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Very uplifting programme on Radio 4 recently about the lives of the ex-Rover workers, 75% had either found jobs or in training and many stories of workers turning their lives around. One became a florist (yes really) which is what he always wanted to do, very Billy Elliott.
Absolute waste of money by Amicus but their money their choice. I will ignore it as I ignore all advertising.
Many moons ago when I had a British Gas company car they had a British manufactured only policy. This like company cars themselves has gone by the board now. Even if you have a company car option most are now user choosers and will go for anything but a Peugeot.
I would be interested to see a study about how the destruction of the company car by ever increasing taxation is linked to the destruction of the UK car industry. I'm sure there is a link. And any green argument doesn't hold water. The cars are still there just user choosed instead of imposed by fleet buyers.
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Interesting theory Thommo and have to agree with you. Was having similar conversation with my Dad who was pretty much always forced british built cars through 'buy british' policy, as was many thousands of other people. Once car allowances and budgets for new cars, pretty much regarless of marque have been introduced the decline of British manufacturing has occured.
To illustrate, my Dads company had nothing but Rover, Ford and Vauxhall in the early 90's and we're talking over 100 cars in a relatively small business, now its awash with Audis, VW's and Mazda 6's. There are no more than 2 or 3 remaining MGs and Fords.
To put it into perspective, in the truck market, Leyland and later Leyland DAF were loosing market share in the 80's and 90's as companies abandoned home grown products and moved to overseas manufacturers. Through the late 90's and more recently, DAF is now the market leader in this country with an overwhealming market share. Although some manufacturing in in Eindhoven, Leyland still assemble trucks here however perception and buyer confidence is obviously second to none.
Lets hope we dont become an assembly only country, however NAC-MG seem to be falling into this already with the TF and whatever models follow.
Always remember the farmer that drove past me every day in his BMW in the middle of the BSE crisis with 'support british farmers' in his back window :-) - Wonder how many Amicus members drive Pugs?
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ill tell you why british was left behind bbroomlea{P} because im obviously older than you ...............
it was due to downtime on the hard shoulder during the seventies and eighties, i could run off all the cars and most of them were british and it was consistent ...............
the latest car i see on the hard shoulder these days in most quantities i dare not say but im not yet 75 ;)
im saying no more...
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Right or wrong about the protest by amicus, I'm sorry to say , the majority of people on here have the attitude of losing jobs seems to be "I'm all right jack, sod you!"
I sincereley hope you are never put in the position of losing your livelihood by a manufacturer closing down and moving to cheaper climates but it's probably the only way you will understand what is happening to jobs.
If we don't stop big companies pulling out then there is very little future for investment. I don't recall many setting up over here.
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I sincereley hope you are never put in the position of losing your livelihood by a manufacturer closing down and moving to cheaper climates but it's probably the only way you will understand what is happening to jobs.
robcars, you've hit the nail on the head. Most people just don't understand the problem that the Ryton workers are facing.
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L\'escargot.
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"Most people just don't understand the problem that the Ryton workers are facing."
I agree . But why should they?
Our society is under fierce competitive pressures regarding cost and quality and design.
Unless you want to go to a soviet (note lack of capitals) style economy where the consumer has no choice, consumers buy from where they want.
And frankly UK volume car manufacturers were killed in the 1970s and early 1980s by recalcitrant and deeply reactionary unions See Red Robbo.
And UK volume white goods manufacture was hit by the Hoover fiasco of free flights which basically bankrupted the company.
And the shipbuilders stuck to outmoded designs and working practices.
Arthur Scargill did his bit for the mines.
It's adapt or die. Many UK compnies did adapt. many did not.
Or would you want us to reopen all the empty cotton mills all around the UK?
Change is inevitable. If you embrace it then you survive. Refuse and companies die. The history of the last 3 centuries of UK since the invention of the steam engine is of continuos change and discarding of industries.
I am sure no Amicus union emplyee owns a Japanese , Korean or Malaysian car, buys only UK produced food , drinks only UK beers and goes on no foreign holidays.:-)
Cos that is the logical extension of their arguments. And of course supermarkets are to be scorned as they displace 1000s of people working in small shops.
Adapt or die.
madf
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>>Most people just don't understand the problem that the Ryton workers are facing
I do. I also knows what causes it. I also know how unions and workers can help the situation or excacerbate it. I also know how ridiculous and half-assed such a £1m negative advertising campaign is.
Seems I know a whole lot more than those poor, down-trodden, much maligned workers at Ryton did. If only car manufacturers understood that their workers were entiteld to jobs for life whatever the economics then everything would be simpler.
What products is it exactly that the entire staff were happy to pay slightly over the odds for just because that means that the workers could carry on and the company could run with the status quo ? Or did they, like the rest of us, expect the best quality and the lowest prices. Perhaps they actually didn't give a stuff for the worker until they found out that they were one of those in danger ? No doubt they all drink freetrade coffee and actually know what it is.
I hate this supercilious "its not happened to you so you don't know how terrible these angels were treated" attitude. I have a job as long as I am economically worthwhile in an extremely competitive market place working for a company in an extremely competitive industry. I know *ALL* about job security and its fragility.
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All very valid comments.
But just remember the ryton plant was hitting all the targets it was set and was actually more competitive than a french factory. But the uk had to go because it was easier for peugeot. (cheaper to close than the french 1).
Thats the reality, thats the problem.
Go bury your heads in the sand, we will end up working together in a warehouse soon I assure you!
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>>But the uk had to go because it was easier for peugeot.
Yeah that is an issue I agree.
However, if Peugeot were British, and they closed a factory at home rather than abroad, there would be a bit of an outcry - so its kind of inevtiable the other way - especially since France is so protectionist.
But I'm still sure that a silly advertising campaign isn't going to work any better than going on strike against redundancies.
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There may be an outcry but it is exactly the point I am trying to make. We need to make it so that companies dont take the easy option and pull out of uk.
Or else where are the jobs ?
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You can't have it both ways. Ease of firing is part and parcel of the flexible economy that is the UK. The upside of all this is that is is also easy to hire staff. If you look to France then the opposite applies.
The union's attitude is pathetic IMO. It almost makes me want to go out and buy a Peugeot.
Manufacturing is a dying industry in the UK. Get over it, move on.
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Like it or not, Pugeot is a French company. They have over production they need to shut a plant. which is easiest The uk because it has less draconina laws than the French.
Honda is a japanese company. The want a plant in Europe,. It boils down to France or UK. France where the labour laws are so tight its a pain. Uk where we have much more flexible working laws. Where is the honda plant? the nissan plant? the toyota plant? Not in France is it. Wonder why that is?
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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"We need to make it so that companies don't take the easy option and pull out of UK"
Perhaps so, but I am certain that responses like negative advertising (especially if it costs £1m) are not an intelligent way to achieve this. Any better ideas, Robcars?
By the way, thanks to all posters on this thread for keeping it civilised !
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I live in Stoke on Trent and have seen HUGE changes over the past 20 years. All the old pottery manufacturers have closed and 1,000s of workers made redundant. The jobs have been exported to Indonesia India etc.
But Stoke today looks and is much more prosperous than 20 years ago.
Why?
Simple economics.
The pottery companies were producing outdated designs in old factories making little money and wages "had" to be low to justify employment. The coal mines were pits at the end of their economic working lives.
The jobs lost were replaced by new industries - many small but one major one: phones4U owned by John Caudwell. All new technologies and many paying much better and in much more attractive surroundings.
The pottery companies left have modernised and most are profitable with new designs and markets.
The old pottery companies could have been kept going by subsidies or not exporting jobs. If so the money spent on those subsidies would have largely prevented the regeneration of the City. Certainly many of the older factories had changed little from the 1900s.
If Stoke is an example of burying heads in sand, I can assure you it's far preferable to the rundown low paid mess that existed before the changes.
madf
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i am not advocating subsidies to keep un profitable jobs going.
i am after keeping profitable companies with well performing factories over here open rather than less profitable ones abroad staying open. That is the idea of a fair european system.
It is fair for most of europe, just not us!
But I am well out voted; you all think the situation is ok, so I just accept it.
That by the way is the apathy that lets us lose jobs! and our kids future!
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we have the lowest unemployment levels for decades and the lowest in Europe.
Ok the jobs might not be dirty greasy digging coal or bashing metal....
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Yep, there is loads of warehouses near me too
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am after keeping profitable companies with well performing factories over here open rather than less profitable ones abroad staying open
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and that is what happens in general most of the time, distorted maybe by some quirks in local taxes or grants.
no commercial company will do anything else. thier primary interest is always the bottom line of thier accounts. anyone who says otherwise is telling porkies.
you are assuming that it would have been better commercially for peugeot to set up their new production plant at ryton rather than somewhere else. peugeot will have done an analysis of the overall costs/benefits before deciding to go elsewhere.
i have recently been dealing with two very large organisations which are engaged in the current trend for "shared service centres". they are both going to locate their european centres in the uk and will terminate staff employed in france, germany, netherlands to name just a few of the countries seen as being difficult for employers rights. those jobs are coming to the uk even though the staff costs are higher but the uk staff speak the universal language (i.e. english) and are seen as being productive, committed, "not--bolshie", etc.; and because if the staff do not meet these criteria, it is much easier in the uk to get rid of the difficult ones with the "attitude problems" and replace them with those who do fit in. some companies have decided to go poland and hungary for their shareservice centres because they feel the cost savings outweigh the risk of language problems.
someone further up mentioned workers rights in china. well, the following is a real typical clause that you will find in employment contracts in the greatest capitalist country - the usa:
" ... employment relationship between you and the Company is 'at will' . This means you and the Company each have the right to terminate the employment relationship at any time with or without cause and without advance notice ..."
as for cotton-mills in north-england having disappered due to the sweat-shop mills in india, you will find (if you search for news itmes in india ) that the indian cotton-mills have now also largely disappeared and the work has gone to vietnam and china.
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TVM, you might might to check the numbers on 'incapacity benefit' before talking about employment levels in UK. Plus your bacon sarnie window just closed but re-opens on 27th August.
Peugeot, like all large French companies, is a special case. Peugeot is the French government is Total is BNP Paribas. They are all manged by graduates from the Ecole Superiors who all know each other, all socialise together in Paris and move seamlessly between each. No decision Peugeot ever makes is devoid of French political input as an ex-Total employee trust me on this one.
US employment 'rights' is an eye opener. I remember one oil company taking over some assets from another one. They fired the ones they didn't and told the ones they did, based in Dallas, on a Monday to be at their desks in Oklahoma City on the following Monday, or else they were fired too. Employment rights do vary from state to state though.
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I?m with you all the way Robcars. ?It ain?t happening to me so grow up and get another job. Or ?this is the way free competition works and you just have to live with it? Its just another way of saying ?I?m OK Jack?.
In my old town which is now a World heritage Centre based on its former industry it is now a yuppies retreat for second homes. All the industry has disappeared including a huge cotton mill which is now used split into little units the main one being to assemble toys from China. Probably 20 textile and hosiery firms gone.
Three foundries making cast iron boilers gone. (They now do it in India.) An oil refinery. And many more?
Where have all these skilled people gone?. Well they got jobs stacking supermarket shelves or the Council employed many in pretend jobs and it helped employment figures so everything is fine.
Every school leaver was encouraged to go to University even if they had literacy problems (Education..Education..Education)
Yes it all seems OK at the moment but this is making us more dependant on other countries to make things for us (who wants dirty hands) and to feed us. Most small farms are now closed down n this area and make lovely big homes and riding schools.
All so fragile Robcars and yet your detractors tell us this is the way of the new world we live in.
Its not so many years ago we were being educated that we must produce to keep the balance of payments but it appears that we have found a new way of doing it.
But for how long?..
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"All so fragile, and yet your detractors tell us this is the way of the new world we live in"
I don't see myself as one of Robcars' detractors; as a buyer of Peugeot cars who has visited the Ryton plant, I would prefer it to remain open. But from PSA's viewpoint, Amicus might be able to achieve that if their skilled members would accept more competitive pay. Would they? - I doubt it. They would rather the public ganged up on their employers. Maybe they could persuade the E.Europeans to strike for higher pay instead?
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nice to see I got somebody on my side i feel like I must be wrong because every one else is right!
There is no ideal answer I know, but we have jobs today; but where is tomorrows wealth coming from.
Our jobs are (or will be) at the mercy of the people making the stuff we are importing. But where does the money come from long term to keep paying for the imports. Unless we sell something abroad we have no money to spend!
Take the thought forwards and to me long term I see our standard of living gettiing worse (and its not that great now compared to huge chunks of europe) and our wages lower (so its economical to produce stuff again) and then we can doff our caps to the new masters who allow us to have a job.
Great if you are happy with it. I am not ! But I am not putting any more into this debate because we all have our own opinions (and no one is necessarily right or wrong) and as I see it no one will move past their blinkers to see longer term.
Time will tell who is right/wrong !
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I don't have sufficient knowledge of Peugeot's costs etc to second guess their decision, but I doubt that Amicus's action will have any effect. More importantly now, I don't think it will have a beneficial effect on future investment decisions.
What mechanism do they expect to operate? If they can persuade the British public to boycott Peugeots (unlikley) then it might deter other manaufacturers slightly from closing plants here rather vthan elsewhere, but it would only have a negative effect on new investment.
I have no doubt there is a political dimension to Peugeot's decision as well, and the imbalance in employment laws in the EU is a factor too.
Fundamentally though these trends are economically driven - trying to stop them is like trying to stop the tide coming in.
It doesn't just apply to manufacturing either - whole IT and finance departments are being 'outsourced' or relocated outside the UK by UK-based companies. I believe even the NHS is/was having patient records routinely transferred to computer in India.
If you care about UK car assembly jobs, buy a UK assembled car, and write to the manufacturer telling them why you shortlisted them.
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Amicus might be able to achieve that if their skilled members would accept more competitive pay.
It's very easy to suggest that someone else should accept "more competitive pay", but I bet you wouldn't volunteer to do this!
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L\'escargot.
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"It's very easy to suggest that someone else should accept "more competitive pay", but I bet you wouldn't volunteer to do this!"
Of course not - that's why it doesn't happen. So one can't blame PSA for thinking similarly.
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"It's very easy to suggest that someone else should accept "more competitive pay", but I bet you wouldn't volunteer to do this!" Of course not - that's why it doesn't happen. So one can't blame PSA for thinking similarly.
What I should have said was .......... It's very easy to suggest that someone else should accept "more competitive pay" but I bet you would fight it tooth and nail if you were in the same boat.
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L\'escargot.
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Amicus have wasted their £1 million IMHO. BTW did the membership vote for the expenditure I wonder? You only have to look at a 207, check the price and test drive it to not want to buy it! Amicus doesn't come into it!
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What concerns me most is that with the disappearance of so much industry is that we lose the skills that have been passed down through generations. The West Midlands used to be described as the ?tool room of the world? and it has now gone together with all these immensely skilled men. No longer will they be passing on their knowledge and experience to the next generation.
This cannot be revived if ever it became necessary and the same applies to farming and the fishing industry in a similar manner.
We are dependant on other countries for almost everything and just hope they never let us down for whatever reason.
Yes I know we still have some industry but much of it is simply assembly work.
Britain one of the previous top manufacturers and now we don?t even make our own cars?.
But never mind, we still have some of the finest supermarkets.
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"and the same applies to farming and the fishing industry in a similar manner."
Well I don't know about fishing but farming should be interesting.
The Law of Unintended Consequences may apply.
As part of the US response to high oil prices, they plan to turn to ehanol production from corn and other cereal crops. Currently the US farmer is subsidised to produce surpluses which are sold on the world market and keep prices down.. and feed China amongst others who import.
Now if US production is going to ethanol, US surpluses will disappear and prices rise.
At the same time the failed WTO talks partly foundered on reducing US farming subsidies (and others of course.. not an apportioning of blame))
Put it all together and in 10 years time farming in the UK may be economic due to foosd shortages and high prices.
(If it sounds fanciful, see what 20 years of low investment in oil exploration did for oil prices eventually when demand and supply eventually started into balance in 2003. Prices have tripled since...)..
Farmland is relativley cheap now : it is unlikely to be cheaper ever again...if the above is true.
madf
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EHANOL! = ethanol
DOh!
madf
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A number of posters on here seem stuck in that mindset that assumes the UK economy is a fixed cake. This is the sort of argument that my Dad enthuses and it makes steam come out of my ears in frustration.
Yes the share of UK output and employment taken by manufacturing has indeed declined....but that is not the same as saying total manufacturing output has declined...in fact UK manufacturing output is at an all time high and is massively more productive than previously with a lower labour requirement.. the rest of the economy in services has expanded hugely so as a proportion manufacturing has declined...this is a good thing for the country as it shows a that our economy is expanding and that there is a net transfer of jobs to new higher value adding sectors such as services. As some have noticed the wealth effect of higher wages and employment in such sectors is re-invigorating existing ex-manufacturing towns.
Remember also that the UK does not need to earn all its crust overseas by selling "stuff". We earn from selling anything overseas including services and also from receipts from investments overseas.
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I didnt want to contribute any more but I have to.
Uk manufacturing is at an all time high? Please tell me what and where this is , or do we mean uk assembly of foreign product? A totally different thing; ideal for short term employment but very poor for long term financial security.
In my area I know of no big scale production at all; only small scale localised stuff (better than nothing i agree)
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Why do some people imply that life is more rosey if we have high(er) levels of industrialisation?
The average person in UK today has a far better standard of living than before.
Britain in the 1970's (mostly producing carp cars) ? No thanks.
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Because I am worried for my and my childrens lifestyle in 20+ years time.
Supermarkets selling foreign produce and warehouses storing foreign product, and uk assembly of foreign product do not bring any wealth into the country at all.
I repeat unless "stuff" is sold abroad no money comes in. As for services sold abroad, I beleive these are decreasing steadily too; according to reports and trends. We are no longer the worlds banker like we used to be. If you look closely we are still spending more abroad than we earn.
At my house that would mean going bankrupt eventually! Where is the better standard of living then?
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We had higher levels of industrialisation in the 1970's and yet the state of the economy was pitiful. Remember 1976 and the IMF?
A lot of this is down to personal choice. Supermarkets would not stock foreign produce if people did not choose to buy them. The UK car industry has collapsed because people prefered to buy foreign, for whatever reason.
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You are correct, we buy foreign product by choice.
Where does the money come from to keep buying this product is my concern.
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