Fines for idling engines - BobbyG
One of the councils up here are running adverts on the radio saying the usual, how bad it is for the environment etc if you leave your car engine running whilst parked up, so you will now be fined if caught doing this.

But how bad exactly is it? If you are sitting stationery at side of road and a car drives past at 30mph who is polluting the most? If your car is warm surely it is more efficient and less polluting than if you switch it off and let it get cold again?

Will it really make any difference, I mean at any one time how many stationery cars are sitting with their engines running compared to cars that are being driven?

As buses are often the worse polluters should they switch off every time they come into a bus stop?

Fines for idling engines - bell boy
interestingly i read james may"s piece in motoring (telegraph) yesterday and although i usually find his pieces boring on this subject i totally agreed with him in this instance
Fines for idling engines - frazerjp
But surely this also puts strain on your battery, alternator & starter motor right? The only time i switch off my engine is if im parked in a car park or stop somewhere & if i have an accident which involves liquids spilling everywhere of course!!
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
Fines for idling engines - Stuartli
Another classic example of control freaks officialdom.

Unfortunately it is becoming rife in all too many areas, including motoring, and the general public appears completely apathetic about the eventual consequences.
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Fines for idling engines - robcars
Amazing how much/little pollution is actually caused by cars, compared to power stations, aeroplanes, cows etc.

But they keep building more airports/runways and flying more planes but taxing them even less for their pollution.

I dont agree with pollution caused by cars but it needs to be in perspective is all. Real polluters are getting away with murder compard to the easy targets ( individual motorists rather than big money making power influencing big businesses)
Fines for idling engines - LukeMH
Eh?

How will this work then? How will this be enforced?

What will be the maximum ammount of time before you get fined?

I'm one of these sad mpg watchers that always has the trip coputer set to real time mpg, but if I am only pulling up for a minute or 2 to wait for someone or while my girlfriend pops into the shop to pick up a pint of milk etc, then I leave the engine running. I assumed this was sensible to avoid excessive start stops, which use fuel and cause more engine wear

Fines for idling engines - Blue {P}
Wheni'm doing tuition I never get the pupils to switch the engine offm even if I intend talking to them at the side of the road for 10 minutes, the reason is very simple, as soon as the engine is off, so is my A/C. Without it the car becomes very uncomforatble very quickly.

Blue
Fines for idling engines - Roger Jones
One thing to avoid in your own interests and for the sake of the environment is cold idling.

As for the general issue, a very interesting article in Saturday's FT had a clear priority for those who care about the environment: "Never, ever, fly on an aircraft again."
Fines for idling engines - Manatee
>>Saturday's
FT had a clear priority for those who care about the
environment: "Never, ever, fly on an aircraft again."


Do they tell you how you should fly?
Fines for idling engines - Dipstick
Excellent. That'll cut down the queues at the airport nicely.

Fines for idling engines - Cliff Pope
Cold idling may be bad, but surely turning off a cold engine and then restarting is even worse? I thought the warning for catted cars was never stop the engine unless the system has warmed up.
We've had threads before where people have done calculations aimed at establishing the interval of standing before it becomes better/cheaper to switch off.
Obviously its always better to switch off if you are waiting half an hour, and always better to leave it idling if you are waiting 5 seconds. But somewhere in between there must be a critical point. I don't see how anyone monitoring it can ascertain that point unless they have been timing from the instant you stopped.
And the crucial figure may well vary widely for different cars.
Fines for idling engines - Number_Cruncher
>>We've had threads before where people have done calculations aimed at establishing the interval of standing before it becomes better/cheaper to switch off.

An ex-colleague worked on this about 10 years ago. He found that the interval was really quite short, and even switching off at traffic lights was beneficial.

I too read James May's article, and while he put his argument well, I don't think much of his opinion. He makes some valid points about oil being a finite resource, and that in the long term, we should begin to use renewable sources of energy, but I don't think that it follows that we should be profligate with the oil that we have.

Number_Cruncher
Fines for idling engines - Bill Payer
An ex-colleague worked on this about 10 years ago. He
found that the interval was really quite short, and even switching
off at traffic lights was beneficial.

There used to be a car that did this (was it VW Polo?) and I'm sure I read recently about the system making a come-back.
Fines for idling engines - madf
If a diesel, surely not an issue. Fuel consumption at idle is very low.
If a petrol , then definitely.

Like to see them make GPO vans switch off engines when postie empties Post Box, etc etc.. or mayor's car when waiting etc..
madf
Fines for idling engines - R75
Like to see them make GPO vans switch off engines when
postie empties Post Box, etc etc.. or mayor's car when
waiting etc..
madf


The Artic tractor units a few years ago were all starting to be fitted with a device that cut the engine if the hand brake was applied and engine had been idle for 5 minutes. If it happend in a traffic jam you then had to turn off the ignition, open the drivers door for a couple of seconds, close the drivers door and restart the engine - in the winter it was a real pain as many times you could be waiting to load/unload for a couple of hours with the only form of heating keep cutting out!!!!!
Fines for idling engines - Roberson
There used to be a car that did this (was it
VW Polo?) and I'm sure I read recently about the system
making a come-back.


Formel E. Introduced in the very early 80s by VW, and fitted to a range of cars including the Polo, Golf and Passat. Worked very well, giving some surprising economy figures. Can't say these engines lasted any less than standard engines neither.

A lot of areas in Newcastle city centre are designated 'clear zones' where engine idling is not permitted. This includes most taxi ranks and bus stations.

Personally, I turn my engine off if its going to left idling for more than a minute or so.
Fines for idling engines - local yokel
I too saw some research on this in an earlier existence - 25 seconds was the magic number on a fully warm engine. Wear on electrical components was not calculated.

What is the MTBF of a starter motor?
Fines for idling engines - Peter D
Do not get caught in the detail of this. An example, At one of the modern shopping centres a few miles away there is a Bar/Bistro with outside tables and very pleasant it can be too. However there is a Taxi rank 7 or so yards away and the Taxi's often sit there with their engines running burning fuel and pumping out carp. No it's not for the Aircon, they mostly have there windows open. This happens all over the place. I took great pleasure when noting a police car stopped with his engine running as he was doing paperwork whilst parked in a layby, I just could not resist going back, parking and requesting the officer to turn his engine off. The officer who was not wearing a seat belt started to get out of the car and I took even more pleasure in reminding his that he was not wearing a seat belt and to leave the vehicle with the engine running would be his second offense of the road traffic act. Then the other PC ( passenger ) got shirty so I requested they call for a senior officer to attend and that shut them up. They belted up and drove off. They are probably just waiting to pull me for something, mind you that was last year. I think there is a general law now covering 'Excessive Idling' and rightfully so if sensibly applied. I note that quite often when I am in my local supermarket that there are drivers waiting for there passenger to return from the store and they sit there with the engine running. Nice day, not hot nor cold, why should they burn fuel and pollute un-necessarily. Regards Peter
Fines for idling engines - stevied
Good man Peter./.. vive la revolution!

Don't like being told do they? There must be some character defect in terms of social skills you have to declare before doing police training, without it you'd be considered a reasonable, sane person and therefore unsuitable for police work!

Likewise you have to pass an interview entirely conducted in the third person before you can do traffic police work.... to quote The Old Gits from Harry Enfield: Policeman to Old Git driver: "Have we been drinking Sir?" Old Git "I've never met you before in my life, how could we possibly have been drinking?".
Fines for idling engines - Fullchat
It is not an offence to sit in a layby with your engine running and without a seatbelt? Nor is there an offence committed if the driver got out leaving a qualified person in the vehicle. There is no such law as 'excessive Idling'

pnld.hosting.pdms.com/DocManager/Content/@36.htm
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Fullchat
Fines for idling engines - Fullchat
Having said all that I stand corrected, there would appear to be some local by-laws in Campden which they are attempting to enforce. This would appear to by no means to be national.
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Fullchat
Fines for idling engines - Dalglish
... There is no such law as 'excessive Idling' .....

>>

fullchat - the law that peter is referring to is probably this one:
www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents...f
".....
1.1.2. Regulation 98 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986[ 1 ] , as amended,
already makes it an offence to leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is
parked. Under this scheme local authorities will be able to instruct motorists to switch off their
engines while their vehicles are parked and to issue Fixed Penalty Notices to those who refuse to cooperate.
1.1.3. It is not the intention to target motorists who leave engines running when parked for no more
than a few seconds; rather, action will be targeted on more serious offenders (eg coaches which park
in busy town centres with their engines running).
1.1.4. The scheme is designed to encourage all motorists to have due regard to the local environment
when parking. Good public relations and effective publicity will be vitally important to ensure that the
scheme is understood, accepted and supported by the majority of motorists.
1.1.5. Action should be purely advisory in the vast majority of cases. Very few Fixed Penalty Notices
should need to be issued: their effect is that of a deterrent. ..... "
Fines for idling engines - Mike H
I'm not sure of the legal weight, but in either Germany or Austria (can't remember which) there are road signs at, for example, traffic lights and railways crossings asking/telling you to switch off your engine if stopped for more than a specific time (one or two minutes, once again memory fails me!).
Fines for idling engines - Stuartli
I'm not sure of the legal weight, but in either Germany
or Austria (can't remember which) there are road signs at, for
example, traffic lights and railways crossings asking/telling you to switch off
your engine if stopped for more than a specific time (one
or two minutes, once again memory fails me!).>>


See:

tinyurl.com/pone3
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Fines for idling engines - Mike H
Thanks! :-)
Fines for idling engines - Group B
Citroen Stop and Start system - engine automatically shuts down when braking at speeds below 6kph, then "instantaneously" restarts itself when required. Citroen claims it can reduce fuel consumption by up to 10%. www.citroen.com/CWW/en-US/TECHNOLOGIES/ENVIRONMENT.../

Makes me wonder about long term reliability of systems like these. Imagine in 5 years time you're in busy traffic behind an old stop/start car which has been neglected and inadequately serviced. It stops itself at traffic lights, but then tries and fails to restart itself?
Fines for idling engines - mss1tw
From cold, you can't tell me that system is good for the engine...or any temperature in fact. IC engines weren't designed for it.
Fines for idling engines - DP
From cold, you can't tell me that system is good for
the engine...or any temperature in fact. IC engines weren't designed for
it.


Agreed. Not to mention the battery. I wonder how many times could you start and stop a typical engine (particularly a diesel) in an hour before the battery quits on you?
Fines for idling engines - Bill Payer
Agreed. Not to mention the battery. I wonder how many times
could you start and stop a typical engine (particularly a diesel)
in an hour before the battery quits on you?

BMW is to introduce this system next year.
Fines for idling engines - stunorthants
I was just wondering what piece of legislation allows the councils to do this?

I must admit, If im sitting at a set of traffic lights which I know will be three minutes or more for example, I do switch my engine off, but not for enviromental reasons, its just a habit!

Mind you, i wouldnt have done it with my old Reliant - there was never any telling, esp when cold, if it would fire up instantly again or if I would be left sitting in the middle of the road hoping it will catch before someone honks their horn at me!
Fines for idling engines - mss1tw
Wouldn't do it in a diesel. Efficient anyway, and I've heard that stop/starting places most strain on the timing belt and it's components.
Fines for idling engines - mjm
If the councils are going to do this, then are they going to fine themselves for not ensuring that traffic flows freely through the areas they control? The amount of fuel wasted by badly phased traffic lights, speed humps, parking on through routes and causing obstructions etc must surely outweigh the amount wasted by idling parked cars/buses.
Fines for idling engines - Dalglish
One of the councils up here are running adverts on the radio saying the usual, how bad it is for the environment
etc if you leave your car engine running whilst parked up, so you will now be fined if caught doing this.

>>

new rules and guidance on enforcement are described at
www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents...f

actually, they have apparently been fining people in glasgow since february 2006 at least - according to:
thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=198022006
....City council officials in Glasgow said yesterday that they had issued 16 drivers with £20 fines for the offence since the local authority launched the crackdown two months ago. ....

camden also are taking a tough stance:
www.camden.gov.uk/print/ccm/content/environment/ai...l
....We use these powers to deal with the most serious offending drivers, such as coach and bus drivers. The officers are able to issue an on-the spot fine of £20 to drivers that do not turn off their engine when asked. We can issue a fine more than once to a driver. ....

Fines for idling engines - DP
If this becomes commonplace, there will be traffic chaos as cars fail to restart.

Can you imagine it? Middle of winter, cars used for short journeys having their engines switched off every few minutes? Flat batteries galore.
Fines for idling engines - David Horn
Hundreds of times, I'd have thought. Most diesel cars I've been in require about 1/4 second of cranking to fire up.
Fines for idling engines - DP
At a current draw of about 400A

I wouldn't want to risk it.
Fines for idling engines - Bromptonaut
As the links posted by Dalglish make clear it's not aimed at running engines in stationary traffic but at those who leave cars and particularly buses idling at the roadside. Aside from emissions there is also the question of noise affecting surrounding property. Few things are more irritating then a waiting bus going boggler boggler outside your window at 06:30.

Having said that there's usually no good reason not to turn your engine off if held up for more than a minute in traffic. Local level crossing at Banbury Lane has now been replaced by a bridge; 20 minute waits were not unknown if the trains were speed restricted.
Fines for idling engines - Pugugly {P}
Just driven the office Honda Hybrid thing for 50 odd miles, it's engine cuts out at traffic lgihts at junctions - very disconcerting. Bizzare. Dangerous if it's not your every day car.
Fines for idling engines - Lud
Dangerous, PU? Doesn't the thing go again when you press the go pedal?

What I was thinking was, how do you tune your 6-carb Ferrari without doing quite a bit of idling as you listen down the trumpets with your stethoscope, twiddle screws etc... Every 1,000 miles too.
Fines for idling engines - Pugugly {P}
Nah, you've got to put it first gear, which is fine if it's your usual mount and are used to it. Got to use it again tonight for the same trip or risk a nice stripey BMW.
Fines for idling engines - Peter D
Hi, FullChat, I can assure that not wearing a saet belt whilst stationary is an offence on a public highway as you are deemed to be driving the car. I.e. if a 10 year old was sitting in the drivers seat even with a seat belt on he is deemed to be in control of the car i.e. driving. In addition to leave a vehicles driving seat whilst on a pulpic highway, which a layby still is, is I assure you a road traffic offence. I know I was done for it when I left my friend in the car whilst I popped in to the tabaconist for some of my fovourite mints, came out to find a police officer waiting. This was back in 1972. People keep doing this outdise cash machines and the like. IT IS A ROAD TRAFFIC OFFENCE. Do you not think the two policemen would have pulled me up on it if I had been wrong. The excessive Idling fixed fine has been here ( Scotland ) since Jan 3rd from memory. Regards Peter
Fines for idling engines - Fullchat
Peter D.

I will take it on the chin re 'allowing a vehicle to idle' ; as they say you learn something every day!

However I will take issue with the remainder of your points. I will try to be brief but unfortunately to demonstrate the legislation and 'case law' requires some cutting and pasteing.

" ROAD -

I n relation to England and Wales, means any (length of) highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes. (The words in brackets are added to create the definition in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.) It always includes obvious public highways, footpaths and bridle ways maintained by government agencies or local authorities."

"A hard shoulder may be seen to form part of a road. A more delicate question could arise with regard to a lay-by, but where it is designed to serve only as a temporary stopping place incidental to the function of the road it may well be correct to treat it as part of the road. "

It is generally accepted that the road extends to the boundies of properties at its extremities.

The terms 'drive' and 'driving' appears on numerous occasions in road traffic legislation, however, when someone is or is not 'driving' a motor vehicle is not defined by statute. There is a large volume of case law relating to this particular subject and the majority of it has appeared as a consequence of the drink/driving provisions. The subject may be summed up fairly simply:

Whether or not someone is driving is predominantly a matter of fact and degree, and the court or jury will make the final decision in each individual case.

DRIVE -

Case law has laid down two tests:
1 R v McDonagh 1974 (at C177) which states:

'the essence of driving is the use of the driver's controls for the purpose of directing the movement of the car however the movement is produced' .

2 Edkins v Knowles 1973 (at C179) which deals with the point at which driving stops.

1 The vehicle does not have to be moving. A driver is still driving until he has completed the normal operations such as applying the handbrake, that occur at the end of a journey.

2 A vehicle may halt temporarily such as at traffic lights. Each case will have to be looked at using three questions:
a) What was the purpose of the stop ?
b) How long was the vehicle stopped ?
c) Did the driver get out of the vehicle ?

Therefore being parked in a lay-by does not constitute 'driving' - 'in charge' maybe but not 'driving'.

SEAT BELTS

Requirement for adults to wear adult belts
5(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every person:

(a) DRIVING a motor vehicle (except a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar);
(b) riding in a front seat of a motor vehicle (except a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar); or
(c) riding in a rear seat of a motor car or a passenger car which is not a motor car;

must wear an adult belt.

So you will see that to wear a seat belt you must be DRIVING which we have established the Police Officer you challenged was not!!

AND just to cap it all:

Exemptions
6(1) The requirements of regulation 5 do not apply to:

(f) a person driving or riding in a vehicle while it is being used for fire brigade or in England, fire and rescue authority or POLICE purposes................

However it is considered that Police Officers should wear seatbelts for safety reasons(of course) and to set an example.

QUITING

Regulation 107 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 creates an offence of leaving a motor vehicle unattended without switching off the engine and applying the parking brake.

107(1) No person shall leave, or cause or permit to be left, on a road a motor vehicle which is not attended by a person licensed to drive it unless the engine is stopped and any parking brake with which the vehicle is required to be equipped is effectively set,,unless exempted by paragraph (2).

(2) The requirement specified in paragraph (1) as to the stopping of the engine shall not apply in respect of a vehicle:
(a) being used for ambulance, fire brigade or in England fire and rescue authority or POLICE PURPOSES.

However I would suggest that this was more intended for use at a scene with blue lights etc switched on, but that is not what the legislation says.


I'm sorry if this has not been presented to DVDs standards but I must learn a bit more about how to alter the lettering etc,!!


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Fullchat
Fines for idling engines - P3t3r
But how bad exactly is it? If you are sitting stationery
at side of road and a car drives past at 30mph
who is polluting the most? If your car is warm surely
it is more efficient and less polluting than if you switch
it off and let it get cold again?


The person doing 30mph is getting 100% more mpg than the stationary car.
Fines for idling engines - Aprilia
The person doing 30mph is getting 100% more mpg than the
stationary car.


I would say infinitely more! ;-)
Fines for idling engines - BobbyG
Yeah but this isn't about mpg, its about pollution.
 

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