What is he being accused of and pleading not guilty to that your daughter can testify about ?
e.g. she cannot testify that he was either drunk or sober, insured or not, etc. etc.
|
What is he being accused of and pleading not guilty to that your daughter can testify about ? e.g. she cannot testify that he was either drunk or sober, insured or not, etc. etc.
Sorry for lack of info ,daughter was followed by him for several miles witnesing his erratic driving-she was going to pull off the road and let him pass but he overtook and hit an oncoming vehicle (elderly get rushed to hospital)she witnessed collision and erratic drivig prior to this.
The individual is from a well known gipsy family who think they control the area, my daughter knows this from the family name
--
rustbucket (the original)
|
Should have said (elderly gent rushed to hospital)do not know of outcome to this gents health
--
rustbucket (the original)
|
|
|
PU is better placed, but FWIW I would go to the Police Station concerned, ask to the the officer in charge of the case, and see what he has got to say. I would also suggest that you went with her.
As a general rule I would say that they are more likely to scare to prevent attendance rather than punish attendance afterwards; but whilst I would certainly take that risk myself, I am not sure I would allow my daughter to take it.
|
|
Difficult situation but the court can summons your Daughter to appear as a witness and not attending is an offence. However if the guy was breatherlised at the scene and was positive and a blood test confirmed same. and he has no MOT Tax or insurance and his car is inbedded in the front of the innocent drivers car how come he can pleed Not Guilty and do they really need any more evidence or witnesses.. Solicitors are a strange breed, they know he is guilty but still take the case on. Hope everything works out OK Regards Peter D
|
>>and he has no MOT Tax or insurance and his car is inbedded in >>the front of the innocent drivers car how come he can pleed >>Not Guilty and do they really need any more evidence or >>witnesses..
Its a case of him denying everything,not driving ,not me in the car,not my car,do not know anything about it. Hence the need for the witnesses,other witness can identify him as the driver and the cause,but my daughter was the person being followed erraticaly and being overtaken.This happened a year or more ago.
--
rustbucket (the original)
|
|
OK but was he breathalised at the scene of the accident. ??? If so they have the ID and the result. Regards Peter
|
And whilst this is by no means a certainty, I would not be surprised if, presuming the witnesses turn up, he pleads guilty and gets his 10% credit on the day, maybe some charges are withdrawn, and everyone forgets about it without there actually being a trial.
Alternatively the CPS could balls it all up or witnesses (including police officers) could fail to show and he walks away without a conviction, which is probably what he's hoping.
|
By what has been stated the 'heavy' charges against the Itinerant (is that racist?)are such that the evidence of 'the daughter' is not crutcial and could be dealt with by just reading it at Court without her attendance.
I would suspect that when called to plead a Guilty will be entered so again non attendance.
If however she is called immediately on arrival make known the past threats/intimidation to the Court Official so that she is not housed waiting with the 'clan' and ask CPS for early release after giving evidence so she can be away before the case is over.
Don't know what the procedure is now but in my day on the witness statement taken the address section one wrote "as recorded" and that information put on the back of the statement.
The effect of this was that if copied then address did not become common knowledge under disclosure rules and only brought to light from the witness box. Maybe Fullchat or Midlife Crises can confirm.
dvd
|
Surely if he was breathalysed at the scene and found positive he would have been arrested taken to the police station, re-tested/blood sample taken, fingerprinted photographed and DNA tested.
Surely his identity is now beyond question.
Did this not happen?
|
|
Perhaps the prosecution is pursuing a charge of 'Dangerous Driving' which could carry a sentence of up to 2 years imprisonment? This would require witness testimony on the state of the accused's driving prior to the accident. Just being in an accident isn't proof enough (for a court) that the driving was dangerous.
|
This sounds remarkably similar to an incident in my local area. Without giving the location away rustbucket, does the travellers' site have the initials C.P?
In any case it's a tricky situation and the 'travellers' in this area have been known to exact revenge on a councillor who blocked planning permisssion (had his business premises' windows put through!)
Pat
|
Even I was intimidated I would still give evidence. If someone threatened me I would report that as well. They might scare me but they wouldn't scare me off.
People who make threats tend not to carry them out. Those who really seek revenge keep quiet about it until they pounce.
|
|
I wasn't trying to make light of the dilemma in my post above - I suppose it boils down to me thinking that someone who makes no threats against witnesses is just as likely to harm them as someone who does.
|
>>They might scare me but they wouldn't scare me off.
I agree. But would I let my daughter take the same risk ? Perhaps not.
>>People who make threats tend not to carry them out.
Perhaps. But I wouldn't bet on it.
It depends on whether they are looking for revenge, in which case I probably agree, or they are looking to prevent you doing osmehting in which case I probably do not agree.
|
Surely if he was breathalysed at the scene and found positive he would have been arrested taken to the police station, re-tested/blood sample taken, fingerprinted photographed and DNA tested. Surely his identity is now beyond question. Did this not happen?
He refused a breathalyser and blood smple at police station as far as I know as two out of the 7 or so charges are failing to give both.
We are still in discussion as to the next best step if there is one.As my daughter is an adult it is her decision with our help,she has to think of her family,now that the witness details have been given out its easy to find addresess.Its the rest of the mob left behind after any conviction that is more worying wanting revenge.This particular mob fight among themselfes but as soon as an outsider gets involved they all mass together.
--
rustbucket (the original)
|
It appears to me to come down to what one perceives to be the greatest risk ~ the wrath of the law or the wrath of the accused and/or his associates. From what you've said I personally would decline to say anything further and risk the wrath of the law, which would not entail physical violence. People employed in the judiciary system are paid to risk retribution from lowlife, but innocent citizens aren't. If your daughter is concerned about retribution she should take the safest option, and not feel ashamed about her choice.
--
L\'escargot.
|
|
Its up to the Individual to decide,but if it was my car that had been crashed into and a witness refused to testify then i would be furious with them no matter what the threats.
|
I agree. It may be old fashioned, but your daughter does have a civic duty as a citizen. Moreover, she has a moral duty to the victims who were nearly killed by a madman who does not give a thought for anyone. If my daughter backed off, my opinion of her would fall like a stone.
It is likely that they need her evidence to get a serious penial conviction, otherwise he will argue the 'road was wet' or slippery and anyone in the same position would have had an accident.
You must protect her though. I suggest the following strategy.
1). Explain your reservations to your MP and ask him to help with the police.
2).Write to your Chief Constable asking for protection for your daughter. Be persistent
2). Register your worries by letter to the Clerk of the Court, and ask that he confirm that the Chairman of the Bench has been informed.
3). When she is in the box, regardless of the first question, she should say 'Please excuse me sir, as I am very nervous, as I have been threatened for appearing here today. I will try to do my best in these circumstances.' Then answer the question normally.
Let us know the outcome.
Good luck.
|
|
Well put MW.I myself would struggle to contain my rage at anyone threatening a member of my family.I expect I would get about 5 to 8 years for manslaughter.
|
" When she is in the box, regardless of the first question, she should say 'Please excuse me sir, as I am very nervous, as I have been threatened for appearing here today. I will try to do my best in these circumstances.' Then answer the question normally."
Not sure that from a legal & court proceedings standpoint this is a good idea.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
As a statement made without reference to a specific question, It marks her out as a hostile witness and can be used to rubbish the rest of her testimony.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
|
rustbucket,
What I don't understand is this. Being in the vicinity of an accident is not necessarily the same as being a witness. You can be close by but not necesarily be aware of exactly what has happened. In any case I thought that to be a witness a person had to volunteer to be a witness, i.e. had to be prepared to state what they had seen. How exactly did your daughter get embroiled in all this?
--
L\'escargot.
|
>>How exactly did your daughter get embroiled in all this?
L'escargot
The answer in a short to the point form
1.Daughter followed by the accused for some distance, he was driving erratically and in a manacing way trying to overtake dangerously.
2.Daughter was about to pull over so that he would overtake and get off her tail.
3. The accused overtakes and hits a vehicle head on causing elderly gent serious injury(taken to hospital)
4. Police arrive eventually
5.accused very agressive (drunk) also has a passenger (his son I believe slightly damaged).At this point daughter did not recognise accused.
6.all witnesses questioned.
7.nothing heard of till last week (accident a year or more ago)when 7 charges outlined in letter stating that as accussed pleaded not guilty to charges, witnesses reguired for the court case. AT this point my daughter now knows the accused name and address, she also knows the family from previous contact ie school live in same area ect.the family also know her through same contact.This now puts my daughter in a spot as before the court released her name she would be a reasonably unknown to the family of "travelers".But can now be traced very very easily. The main concern is revenge by the family after the conviction as they do have a history of this kind of thing.
--
rustbucket (the original)
|
Interfering/threatening a witness is taken very seriously by the courts, and by the police, and I suspect that your offender knows this. Far more likely that they are all talk and no trousers, and are playing the case for what they can, and will plead guilty to enough on the day for the CPS to ask that the remaining chrages lie on file, ie, are not pursued in court, but are still open for a laetr case should the CPS change their mind.
Your daughter should explain all this to the court clerk, and/or the local police, who should then bend over backwards to ensure her confidence and protection, both during the case and afterwards.
|
Rustbucket - this is a nasty dilemma and not one that I would wish on anyone I know. Please accept my sympathy.
It strikes me that the offender and his family have plenty to gain before the hearing by appearing likely to interfere - if they scare her into not giving evidence, he may get off and plod will have other things to keep them busy.
However, once she has given evidence, they have nothing to gain and plenty to lose - the conviction is there and cannot be undone, whilst plod should feel some gratitude to her and will hopefully pursue any concerns she has. On that basis, her best bet is to give evidence and get rid of them.
I appreciate that this may be a little too logical for the offender's family, though....
|
OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but my interpretation is that your daughter has become involved somewhat deeper than she originally envisaged. In her circumstances I would want to embark on a damage limitation excercise. I go back to my original assessment ~ "It appears to me to come down to what one perceives to be the greatest risk ~ the wrath of the law or the wrath of the accused and/or his associates. From what you have said I personally would decline to say anything further and risk the wrath of the law, which would not entail physical violence."
I'm aware that not everyone will agree with me on this. However, your daughter's (and her family's) self-preservation must take priority. We can't solve all the wrongs of this world ourselves.
--
L\'escargot.
|
OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but my interpretation is that your daughter has become involved somewhat deeper than she originally envisaged. In her circumstances I would want to embark on a damage limitation excercise. I go back to my original assessment ~ "It appears to me to come down to what one perceives to be the greatest risk ~ the wrath of the law or the wrath of the accused and/or his associates. From what you have said I personally would decline to say anything further and risk the wrath of the law, which would not entail physical violence." I'm aware that not everyone will agree with me on this. However, your daughter's (and her family's) self-preservation must take priority. We can't solve all the wrongs of this world ourselves. -- L\'escargot.
L'escargot
Thank you for your opinion,yes this is basically what it is coming down to here the lesser of the two evils is definately the wrath of the law.As you say at least they are not going to use physical violence against her and the family.
--
rustbucket (the original)
|
rustbucket
From your original post you state "This person also threatened my daughter at the scene of the accident." Remember this was said over a year ago and he was drunk. There may be other subsequent comments that may have been made to your daughter to make her believe that these threats would be carried out. If this is the case then I understand your daughter's reluctance to give evidence as she has a connection via a local school.
However as already stated she does have a civic duty and the law does not look favourably on those who do not carry this out. All BR's can say we wish this bad driver should be removed from our roads, unfortunately this may come down to your daughter giving evidence of what she saw to carry this out.
This situation reminds me of Edmund Burke's quote "For evil to succeed, all it takes is good men to do nothing". The defendant has everything to gain at present, and is using every trick (legal and illegal) in the book to avoid punishment.
My advice is to notify the court of your daughter's security concerns and then she should turn up on the appointed day and give evidence if required. As stated before these threats have more impact before a court case to try and change a person's willingness to give evidence than after.
--
Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
|
"your daughter's (and her family's) self-preservation must take priority. We can't solve all the wrongs of this world ourselves"
A difficult situation for one person, and only too easy to back away from, especially for a young woman. But as others have said, bullying must be resisted or it obviously pays and will be repeated. On a much larger scale, one does not negotiate with terrorists.
|
But as others have said, bullying must be resisted or it obviously pays and will be repeated. On a much larger scale, one does not negotiate with terrorists.
Easy to say when it's not you on the receiving end.
--
L\'escargot.
|
Easy to say when it's not you on the receiving end. -- L\'escargot.
Quite right.
Which is why those of us for whom it is easy must remind those for whom it is not, so that they can return the favour later.
In no way whatsoever am I saying that I would like my daughter to be in this position. Ever. But if no-one will be a witness, then we might as well disband the police and arm ourselves to the teeth :-(
|
But if no-one will be a witness, then we might as well disband the police and arm ourselves to the teeth :-(
The police and the armed forces are paid to risk life and limb in the execution of their duties. The general public owe no such allegiance. I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero.
--
L\'escargot.
|
There are three options.
- No police, everyone for themselves
- Police on every corner and in every room, watching all of us in every move we make
- Police supported by other citizens willing to act as witnesses
If we won't help them achieve the last then we default to one of the first two. I worry that we are heading that way already.
I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero.
Me too. But if we opt for the safety of cowardice then we find ourselves called upon to make the choice again. And again. I have been bullied in the past; it continues right up until the moment you stand up to them.
I am acutely aware that I am typing this while sitting in a nice safe comfortable office, though. In the end, the decision is not mine to make and if the person concerned disagrees with me, I can well see why.
|
>> But >> if no-one will be a witness, then we might as well >> disband the police and arm ourselves to the teeth :-( The police and the armed forces are paid to risk life and limb in the execution of their duties. The general public owe no such allegiance. I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero. -- L\'escargot.
Errr..no we're not. There's nothing in my contract of employment that says I should have to accept being attacked!
There's a big emphasis on witness care these days, to an extent that the rear of statements have been changed to provide better info for the victim support scheme.
I would suggest your daughter contact the appropriate Crminal Justice Support Unit and ask to speak with the witness care officers. (Or someone with a similar job description)
|
The police and the armed forces are paid to risk life and limb in the execution of their duties. The general public owe no such allegiance. I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero. -- L\'escargot.
>>
I was raised differently.would rather be a dead hero than thought of as a coward.Thats why I joined the Royal Marine Commandos in 1985.
|
I think this might be bit strong. I sit on an Employment Tribunal, and any witness that is straight and honest will always get a sympathetic hearing. All she would be doing is explaining her nervous voice. It is very common for individuals to look at the bench and apologise for being nervous. I have seen many witnesses who have never been in a formal public setting actually shake with nerves when reading out documents. Most judicial bodies are very use to this, and always know that 'ordinary members of the public' get very scared 'in the box'. The most important thing is to be honest and straight forward and simply 'tell it as it was.'
I really hope she goes and I bet afterwards she will feel so much better, and if she were my daughter, I would be very proud of her.
Good luck.
|
|
Sorry, I was replying to this note.
|
|
|
|
