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I suspected so, even the 2.4 JTDs are going for £3k on ebay!
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Plenty of other people use Alfa JTD engines including Ford ,never had a problem with 156's or 166's both petrol and diesel.The plugs on petrols are expensive and a longish job to change, change the cam belt at max 35k and plenty of oil changes to weak pump on petrols .Diesels are generally very good but let down by extremely poor main agents.
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Not sure about Ford, but certainly all new Vauxhall diesels and Saab 9-3s all have the same engine. No problems over and above the norm I wouldnt have thought
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Yes, engine is quite robust. Other problems, including electricals that let it down.
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The 1.9 JTD in my Fiat Brava 105JTD, with servicing at recommended times and cambelt change at 60k (all done by my Independant Italian specialist) has been faultless so far, especially as I have a 120 mile round trip commute every day. My Indie tells me that Airflow meters going on Brava/Bravo/Marea JTDs are a common but easily rectifiable fault. Don't know if it is the same for other JTD cars though.
It's far more refined than previous diesels I've had too (Fiesta 1.8 Diesel & Tipo 1.9 Turbodiesel).
I was told that the Italians invented common rail diesel with (I think) a Swiss University, and is now industry norm. Don't quote me on this though :)
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Yup Iveco Fiat invented Common Rail.
Had a 156 JTD SW on an X from 37K to 106K. Alfa bits were rear bushes on the suspension (common, an airbag ecu (rare) & clutch at 96K after the rear oil seal leaked onto it (fairly rare but expensive as it's 7.7hours labour!). Rubbish bits are the AFM & MAF (at any mileage) & diesel pumps which fail regularly at high mileage but are all Bosch. Mine only had a HP diesel pump fail but it took ages to diagnose it & it was £ 690 + VAT + Fitting, even a Bosch agent couldn't sort it. Cambelts NEVER fail on JTD & it's deffo 72K on a diesel not 36 which is petroll only.
Mine was blindingly quick, very economical (40ish MPG) handled very well & never failed to put a smile on my face. Oh it's the only car I've ever owned where people remark on how pretty it is.
Cheap of course they are, every bar room pundit talks them down based on what they heard a few years ago. The troublesome 156's were the very early ones. After 2000 they improved immensly.
Some dealers are dire but a fair few are very good & their are loads of indies around.
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Thanks for that. Noticed Alfa Diesels themselves are used in Saab and Vauxhalls, so the engine design itself cant be bad.
So I take it that these engines used the spring based HP pumps, which have been noted to have higher failure rates not just on the 156 JTD?
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Thanks for that. Noticed Alfa Diesels themselves are used in Saab and Vauxhalls, so the engine design itself cant be bad.
This is true, however talking to people with these cars/engines indicates that whilst they are reliable and fairly robust, they are not returning the sorts of MPG figures that most of the other new-generation diesels are.
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They are the new generation diesels.
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Depends how you define the same series of engines. Mine was 140BHP & used to do 40+ anyone else I know with diesels of similar size in similar cars was doing within 2-3MPG of 40!
If you're comparing with say a 90 or 110BHP lump in the same car then they'll get better economy but it'll be correspondingly slower. Mine regularly used to run rings around 130TD Golfs & the like. So you need to compare like with like. If you want hugely better economy buy accordingly, drive it like miss daisy & you'll get 55+ which is what I see a lot of diesels doing. A given amount of horsepower takes the same amount of fuel regardless of who makes it!
On one trip back in a 156 16V MJet I averaged 75MPH & 45MPG seems fine to me.
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Appreciating that you can prove anything with statistics - if last year's respective percentage decline/increase in sales for Alfa Romeo and Aston Martin are maintained this year, AM will sell 6 more cars than AR (5066 v. 5072).
Maybe now's the time to buy AR for their rarity value.
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Nowt to do with the fact that the 156 has been a run out model for the last year, no secret that the 159 was on the way for 18 months for so.
I suspect that the GT hasn't sold the amount it should, possibly because it's too expensive & the 147 is due to go.
I've always liked the rarity of Alfa, means it's unusual in a sea of Germans & the depreciation means they're a cracking buy at 2-3 years.
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Colinh, thats exactly what ive realised, the Alfa is as beautiful as a merc amg or Astom but costs a fraction of those high end brands, makes Alfa ownership a bargain, as for rust or reliability see Merc for rot and Bmw for swirl flap digestion leading to blown engines, german cars are not as bullet proof as the gullible crowd were led to believe, its just the dealers fix these issues very fast before the word gets out, just google and see.
Im sticking with the Italian quater, never seen a rusty pre 90's Alfa.
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Hi tr7v8,
Can I ask what did fail on your 156 2.4 JTD when you had it? And how long did you have it?
Despite the bad reputation im still tempted. Then again I was told my 306 td would be a pain where the sun doesnt shine out... certainly proved otherwise.
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SS, most is detailed above but I brought it at 2 1/2 years old 37K 1 owner £10,995 (dealer price & quite high but very rare at the time for Veloce spec JTD Sportwagon) & sold at 106K just before it's 5th b/day for £4K. &apart from straight servicing, tyres etc.
It had 1 front suspension arm, 2 new rear hub bushes, 1 turbo (according to Turbo Technics due to 12K service intervals, I also suspect previous owner had fried the turbo), 1 x Clutch at 96K because rear oil seal went, 1 airbag ECU, Front discs & pads (after market Rossini one) rear pads, 3 headlight bulbs.
Cost all in was 30.63 pence per mile. So 65K miles in 2 & 1/2 years. Total cost £ 19,770 including everything & averaged a nadge over 40MPG.
Bear 2 things in mind,1. I drive very hard & 2. I'm quite picky & when the car went it was absolutely 1st class apart from some stone chips on the bonnet.
Everyone talks of suspension on Alfas failing, but don't blink when Vectras & Mondeos do exactly the same thing!
If you pop me your mail address to tr7v8atromeoconsultingdotcodotuk (obviously @ & .) then I'll send you the full gory details on a spreadsheet.
Would I buy another yes in the blink of an eye, do I regret selling mine err... yes, although it was for the right reasons at the time. Which would I buy probably a late new shape 156 with the 175BHP 20V JTD! Although any of the JTD 2.4s will shut down German posuer wagons up to quite big engines, whilst still looking a million times better & costing much less!
Biased you bet yer!
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Ooops forgot HP diesel pump which was £ 968
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Hello,
Will drop an email in the next few mins. Still hasnt quite put me off! :-)
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This is true, however talking to people with these cars/engines indicates that whilst they are reliable and fairly robust, they are not returning the sorts of MPG figures that most of the other new-generation diesels are.
Depends who you're talking to? I've got the Vectra with the 1.9 CDTI and it returns an average of 47mpg. Not bad for a heavy car driven by someone with a lead right foot - me!
So what are the figures you'd expect from a new gen diesel? ;)
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>> This is true, however talking to people with these cars/engines indicates >> that whilst they are reliable and fairly robust, they are not >> returning the sorts of MPG figures that most of the other >> new-generation diesels are. >> Depends who you're talking to? I've got the Vectra with the 1.9 CDTI and it returns an average of 47mpg. Not bad for a heavy car driven by someone with a lead right foot - me! So what are the figures you'd expect from a new gen diesel? ;)
The latest generation of diesels is also significantly more powerful/torquey than diesels of (say) 4-5 years ago yet don't seem to have lost much if anything in economy. They also, from the ones I tested deliver the power far more smoothly & quietly than older engines.
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Agree 100% with the above.
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The JTD is quite a robust engine, the main points to look out for are -
* Mass Airflow Sensor - This is prone to failure, if it does fail do not buy the cheap Chinese versions as they are rubbish. Buy the proper Bosch version.
* Suspension - Wishbones and bushes are prone to clonking while driving.
* Clutch - As a clutch change on a JTD is a very long job to do.
* Radiator - Only good for about 3-4 years
If you get hold of a 2.4 JTD you can have some fun with a remap, as a company that I know of has one thats churing out 260bhp with 104k on the clock.
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Thought about remap. Wouldnt things like the clutch and maybe the brakes be upped in the process?
Also you might have missed brakes, unless these ones come with vented ones by standard.
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Clutch is generally fine mine failing when it did was quite rare. Brakes are debatable they felt weird but all JTDs are like that, with the uprated Rossini disks & standard pads it wasn't bad, but upgrade to GTA Brembos come on the market for not a lot of money so I'd probably do that. At least with the Rossinis I'd want EBC Greens or better.
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Think I will end up upgrading the brakes, they do seem the weak point in the package.
Is your mailbox setup ok? Gmail received:
PERM_FAILURE: SMTP Error (state 9): 554 : Relay access denied
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Cheers to whoever stripped the email address out - just occured to me too!
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Sorry SS try
tr7v8atphaetonconsultingdotcodotuk
Brain fade after a long day in Brighton!
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I don't think Iveco/Fiat 'invented' CR diesel engines. I was operating and maintaining common rail engines on Vicker's engined submarines in the 1950s and the boats were built during the second world war. Admitedly the rail pressure and injection timing were all controlled 'handraulically'. Sorry, not very motoring oriented.
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Quick Gooogle gives:-
Bosch Common Rail injection system ?
Milestones of development
1997:
First Common Rail system in the world for passenger cars.
Injection pressure: 1,350 bar.
First production use: Alfa Romeo and Mercedes-Benz.
1999:
Common Rail system for trucks.
Injection pressure: 1,400 bar.
First production use: Renault (RVI).
2001:
2nd generation Common Rail for passenger cars makes diesel engines even more economical, cleaner, quieter and more powerful. Injection pressure: 1,600 bar.
First production use: Volvo and BMW.
2002:
2nd generation Common Rail for trucks gives lower emissions, improved fuel consumption and more power.
Injection pressure: 1,600 bar.
First production use: MAN.
2003:
3rd generation Common Rail with rapid-switch piezo inline injectors for cars.
Advantages: up to 20 % lower emissions or up to 5 % more power or up to 3 % lower fuel consumption or up to 3 dB(A) less engine noise.
Injection pressure: 1,600 bar.
First production use: Audi.
The 3rd generation Comon Rail from Bosch is characterized by rapid-switch, compact piezo-inline-injectors. The innovative injection system provides for low exhaust emissions in the new V6 diesel engine of the Audi A8.
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Fiat group designed and developed high pressure diesel injectors, they sold the patent to Bosch, fact.
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Thought about remap. Wouldnt things like the clutch and maybe the brakes be upped in the process? Also you might have missed brakes, unless these ones come with vented ones by standard.
The company that does the remaps also sells uprated clutches, if you wish to replace it if it's on the way out. But many people have kept the original clutch and havent had any problems at all.
The brakes on the 156 are a bit rubbish anyway, and it's best to uprate the pads to something like a set of Ferodo ds2500.
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The Jtd engine is no less robust than any german or jap brand, an engine will perform for years if serviced correctly esp high powered 16v variable turbo engines as used in the Alfa Jtdm.
150bhp is a lot for a 1.9 derv and so will need the correct oil ie fully synthetic and changing every 12000miles not 18000 as Alfa state.
Alfas main failing years back was the very poor dealership service.
Today the dealers no longer trawl along the bottom of surveys but are right up there with VW and the like.
Alfa Romeo are exclusive cars (great) and this is mainly because there are so few dealerships around unlike the VAG group esp skoda ,and thats great for Alfa owners as they are rarer on the roads in the uk and have no snob value whatsoever (at the moment, hands off audi/bm owners).
Alfa Romeo real drivers car with looks to die for at a bargain price, mad.
Edited by Bruce100 on 08/08/2015 at 22:33
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My cousin has a 2003 1.9JTD Sportwagon with 220K on the clock. He bought it with 180K on it, and fsh from Alfa and Alfa independents. He considers it a very strong car.
When GM bought Fiat, the Economist noted that the deal was done for the quality of JTD engines.
The 156, and certain other Alfas, have a rather useful quality if one regularly uses the Dartford Crossing these days....work it out ;-)
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Would that be that the anpr cameras can't read the number plate as it's to one side?
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