Aprilia
Hm, yes, 'lifetime fill'. Asked the BMW dealer to change this stuff on my 323 at service time as I don't beleieve in leaving it forever, and I thought the gearchange was deteriorating a little, especially when cold. 50k miles was enough. Got the usual 'not needed' reply. Yes, I said, but I'm a careful type, and I'd like to change it. Effectively they refused.
So, the car went to a local specialist for the service, who said, yes, I'll change it, don't have to, but it's not a bad idea.
Result - improved the gearchange quality.
JS
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It seems inevitable that when mechanical transmission components are bedding in, there will be fine particles of metallic swarf which will impact on gearbox/transaxle bearings if the oil is not changed.
I also find it difficult to understand why manufacturers like BMW, reckon this practice to be unecessary with modern synthetic lubricants. I can only assume with their refusal to replace transmission oil, that they are factoring in premature failure to keep their spanner monkeys in employment and charge the customer extortionately to boost their main dealership margins.
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Interesting to note that H.J. recommends changing mechanical gearbox oil after 12 to 15k miles :-
www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=13
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Aprilia
Noting the wealth of automotive engineering knowledge from which we benefit so greatly in general, and your Jaguar experience in particular (and without wishing to hijack the BMW thread), I would very much appreciate any thoughts you may have on the "lifetime fill policy" applied to Jaguar's 4.0 litre V8 autos as fitted to 5 speed autos in normally aspirated XJ and XK8s.
Jack
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I assume here that you're talking about the ZF 'boxes.
They use a 'lifetime fill' of Esso LT71741. This is an amber-coloured ATF that has slightly different properties to regular 'red' Dexron III ATF.
I think 'lifetime fill' actually means 'not during warranty period'. I wouldn't let any A/T run longer than 60k miles without a change.
Look at your ATF, is it still amber? If it has 30k+ on it then I bet it looks a bit dark.
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If you drain out any transmission oil with more than about 20-30k on it then you'll find its sheared down a bit and is thinner than the new stuff.
Tranny oil is pretty cheap, so well worth changing.
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Aprilia
Thank you very much indeed for your speedy, helpful, and interesting responses. The car is 2000 MY and therefore well out of warranty (2000 MY)despite only 32000 on the clock - and in a nice warm garage a little way away. I hope I may therefore be allowed to come back to you as necessary when I have a. had a look at the colour and b. checked up what, if anything, the handbook says about it - especially since I now note that HJ's XJ/XK8 Car-by-Car Breakdown states "No easy means of checking 5-speed autobox oil level or refilling it. Jaguar says 'sealed for life', but no oil changes mean a 'life' of 10 years tops"!
With and best wishes, and renewed thanks for your contributions, both on this issue and in general.
Jack
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The transmission you have in the Jag is either a 5-speed ZF5HP24 or a 6-speed ZF6HP26.
They are a bit awkward to drain and refill for the average DIYer, but an auto transmission specilialist will find it easy to do.
Note that these transmissions have a variety of problems associated (not least a reputation for 'lurching') and I believe updated control software was released a year or so ago. If you have not been into a Jag dealer recently then it may be worth a trip to enquire about the relevant TSB's and whether they apply to your car.
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im a "grease monkey" retard...
and probably know alot more about you about BMW servicing.. working for BMW and all... Lifetime is an oil which is designed to pick up swarf collected during bedding in ect, it is also designed to leave a film on the gears to create a lubricant when first started. the oils which are considered lifetime have been throughly tested on engine/gearbox rigs in germany, where they are tested NON stop for approximatly 200 000 mile ( KM conversion my be slightly out ) this is tested at different loads speeds ect. then the oils, components are tested and checked for condition..
make no mistake it is throughly checked and BMW would not fill a transmission with second rate oil then claim it doesnt need to be changed in order to increase profit...
dick
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The 'lifetime' oil (Esso LT71141) is not that special. There are a number of 'multi-vehicle' synthetic ATFs which meet the same spec (e.g. Amsoil, Pennzoil etc.).
If you service BMW's then you must have seen what I've seen. E.g. changing the transmission oil on a 2002MY E39 528i with 80k. Old ATF comes out grey with specks of silver in it.....
I know BMW do all these test etc etc but given that these ZF transmissions aren't the world's most reliable I'd say its preferable to change out the fluid every now and then. Cheap insurance I'd say.
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Exactly, with all these vehicles which are having catastrophic failures of engines, turbochargers and transmissions these days, I'm sure some of this is due to inadequate lubrication. Why chance it? I know a few people with cars still under the three year warranty having major work done, aswell as the stories on here and elsewhere.
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It might also be worth adding that many of these 'lifetime' oils are no different than regular off-the-shelf oils. For example, BMW's 'lifetime' manual transmission fluid (part nr. 23 00 7 533 514) is nothing other than a regular synthetic 75W-85 GL-4 gear oil. They just call it 'lifetime'.....
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Hm, yes, 'lifetime fill'. Asked the BMW dealer to change this stuff on my 323 at service time as I don't beleieve in leaving it forever, and I thought the gearchange was deteriorating a little, especially when cold. 50k miles was enough. Got the usual 'not needed' reply. Yes, I said, but I'm a careful type, and I'd like to change it. Effectively they refused. So, the car went to a local specialist for the service, who said, yes, I'll change it, don't have to, but it's not a bad idea. Result - improved the gearchange quality. JS
Why has BMW changed the servicing requirements on this transmission.
I have a trusty 1994 E36 320 coupe with the 5 speed auto box and the service schedule calls for repacement ATF at inspection 2, which generally works out at around 30k miles (only 7.5 - 8k miles between indicated service intervals - I bet that's longer on the E46 too).
Still changes perfectly at 108k miles - touch wood!
Anyone know what would be a reasonable life expactancy for this transmission?
JB
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John 2002
My car is actually an E36 323 with a 5 speed manual box. Doesn't appear to have any gear box or axle oil changes recommended. Even if it did, BMW, like other manufacturers, seem to regularly update service schedules, so what your original service book states isn't necessarily what you get at service time. You're right that service intervals have increased too. My old E30 put out its green lights every 7.5k miles or so. This E36 gets over 9k. E46 cars seem to have stretched to 15k or more. It's by no means clear what is so significantly diferent with them though.
As a mechanical engineer I consider this 'no change' policy for gear and axle oils plain wrong. These applications subject the oil to high shear strees and they will deteriorate. Gear oils will collect debris from synchro wear and the odd bothed gearchange. But, as has been commented here regularly it keeps down service costs for company cars and will see out the warranty period.
JS
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On a US BMW forum I frequent on more than one occasion I have seen members there state that their dealers told them that BMW consider "lifetime" to be 100,000 miles That mileage is well past original or extended warranty mileage and for the most part beyond the amount of mileage the average new BMW buyer will put on their cars, so I don't see BMW suffering too much if their transmissions and diffs go bang past 100,000 miles.
No clue if thats the official BMW USA stance, just what was supposedly said by the main dealers.
If one changes "lifetime" fluid where is the harm?. If anything the transmission will now last for longer than a lifetime 8-)
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I've just developed a problem on my 530 auto (140,000 miles, 2001) where it's slipping in first gear. This happened about a week ago. I now set off in second gear but it's now seems as if it's slipping in second as well. I thought the first clutch band had gone until it started slipping in second. If I set off in first it doesn't seem to go anywhere and then suddenly bangs into second.
I had an expert look at it and he said there were iron filings in the fluid. Bearing in mind this thread I wondered if it was worthwhile changing the fluid. Or has the damage already been done. Anybody any ideas?
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I have a 1999 with 150K on the clock... the other day she simply would not drive... rev'd it hard for while and bang she jumped into gear.. it then drove great for about 30mins, but then it started to slip and the gearbox warning light came on. I turned the car off for 10mins and she worked again.. approaching a junction it slipped again.. I dropped her into manual mode and got a horrid dry noise..... the car got me home but smelt bad !!!!
and hour later started her again and she drive fine.. I drove her all the way to the dealer in manual mode and auto no issue's. Dealer showed NO errors codes nothing.. they simply said the gearbox was gone... errr thanks.. after a heated discussion they have agreed to replace the tranmission filter and oil (not all if it, just the 6/7litres that would sit in the sump) I hope, PRAY this sorts it and the old oil is really nasty and upsetting the Torque converter. Stories of Lifetime oil are bull cr@p..... ask BMW to define LIFETIME and they can not.... LIFETIME = Warrante Life to me.
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