I *think* the 280cdi is in fact a brand-new engine - but definitely of 3 litre capacity.
What Car (yawn) tested the two alongside a BMW 525d the other month, which ´won´the grouptest FWIW.
Regards,
barchettaman
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Yep 280DCi is a different engine to the 320CDi. 'Car' said it wasn't worth buying the 320.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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thanks - spoke to a guy at a merc dealership today who told me about the upgrade offer - also said they were doinf the 320 for the same price as a 280 - facelift presumably causing that.
Will obviously have to test both, but still wondering whether the 4WD on the audi would be a clincher.
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>>Yep 280DCi is a different engine to the 320CDi. 'Car' said it wasn't worth buying the 320.>>
As has been said the new 320 and 280 are the same 3.0 V6 in different states of tune, the old 320 was a 3.2 inline 6 and the 270 a 2.7 inline 5.
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I think that there is a current campaign offering the E320CDi for the price of E280CDi - saloon only.
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Merc website confirms that the new 320 and 280 are the same 3 litre engine in different states of tune.
Presumably deals on the 320cdi are on the model with the outgoing engine.
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Well the new 320DCi must be good, because the old 320CDi inline is superb.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Presumably deals on the 320cdi are on the model with the outgoing engine.
I don't believe so.
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I guess if the only difference between the E280 and E320 CDI is software,it's a very cheap 'upgrade' for MB to offer...
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Saw an E280 CDi yesterday and thought I'd not seen one before. Don't forget the A6 is available in 2.7 TDi guise as well as the 3.0.
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yep - good tip re 2.7 - that's 345 a month cheaper too - but performance seems quite a bit down on the 3 litre (more than the difference between the 280 and the 320, actually).
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Oops - £45 a month - £345'd be good!
Actually just perusing the list again and we get to choose 3,4 or 5 years - the E280CDi is only £6 a month more to have it over 2 years - and I do like a new car...
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I've gone bonkers - 2, 3 or 4 years!!
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I drove a E270cdi against a 525d and 2.7tdi and for me it was the least appealing. The engine is smooth and powerful and the ride is super smooth but for me the drive seemed lifeless and remote even against the Audi and considerably so compared to the BMW. I also couldn't get on with the style of the cockpit though my father in law, loved it and what he refers to as the "sofa on wheels" ride. So it certainly didn't have any obvious flaws and my objections were largely subjective. I'd say a great car for passengers and motorways.
What I think this reinforces the need for test driving these cars yourself. I got no problem getting 2-5 day test drives on whatever cars I wanted from our fleet. Most of them were dropped off on a flatbed and picked up afterwards - no sales shtick. Get your leasing co. to sort it out with corporate sales.
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"BMW ... won the group test"
Well what a surprise... Don't get me wrong, BMWs are good cars, but the regularity with which they come out top in group tests is rather boring.
Have you seen the interior of a non-upgraded 320i or 320d? Very low rent indeed.
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thanks Martin - helpful as always - you were very helpful with my "2.0 vs 2.7" audi in the summer last year!
If I didn't have an A6 now I'd be even more drawn to the 3L quattro, but you know how it is sometimes when you get the chance of a different car! the new 320 and 280 are reckoned to be way better than the straight 6 engines they've replaced, and I've just found I can do the 280 over 2 years for £40 a month less than the audi over 3 - but you're dead right, I do have to drive them all. The info I received this morning says they can organise "one test drive" - which seems a bit daft - may have to go and tell fibs to the local merc dealer...
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Glad to be of help. I know what you mean about trying out a different car and especially if the figures add up and it's only for 2 years. The 270cdi was a very good engine so if the new one is better it should be a hoot. That 1 test drive business is nonsense. You can book a test drive through both the MB and Audi sites or otherwise, as you say, just speak to the business sales guy at the showroom and spin him a line.
BTW, I spoke to our fleet guy about us getting this ECO scheme. Apparently, we had a firm in pitching for it but for us the figures didn't stack up since so many of our cars do only private miles. His other concern was that the IR have already got a select committee working on a plan to hit car allowance schemes with an emissions related tax to make up for the substantial drop in BIK revenue. So with that possibility, it might be worth bearing in mind that either of the Mercs, with lower emissions than the Audi, and with the £40 monthly saving, would be the shrewder choice.
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Worth bearing in mind the future tax treatment, martin - good point. It'd be interesting to see how the revenue could treat this scheme any differently to any other 'cash allowance' scheme, though - apart from the fact that they have a group insurance and maintenance arangement, they're effectively giving you some money to lease a car with - I suspect that if they change the way they treat it then the companies would simply change the way they run the schemes. I'd assume they'd have to give a year or two's notice to allow cars to 'wash through' the system anyway.
Just checked the difference on BIK if it ever came to it - 280CDi just short of £500 a year less than the audi, the 320 only about £120.
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From what I could gather, the Revenue is not looking only at the ECO schemes but at all the drivers who use a cash allowance from their employer to buy a vehicle. He flashed me an article in a fleet mag, which seemed to confirm what he was saying about treasury moves on this matter. Our fleet chap?s concern with these schemes was that employees who spent up to the hilt on high emission vehicles would be fairly unhappy when they were additionally clobbered by the Revenue and that it would be his dept which would get the grief.
Your plans in respect of list price and emissions look fine and it?s hard to see that you?ll have any concerns, but I would suggest that you push for even a brief test drive of the Merc on the kind of routes that you would normally travel.
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Curse those men from the revenue! Mind you, in that case they might as well just tax every car - if the firm gave you an extra £7500k a year, then you went out ad bought a car, how's that different to the bloke who buys his x-reg escort? whatever - my new job means I can cycle to work every day in the summer, and will probbaly train it there and run home once a week!
As you suggest I'm going to try and get a decent run out in both, but it's a really tricky choice - suspect I'll end up going for the merc over 2 years (don't s'pose you know which model you drove, btw? I'd be getting the avantgarde which has slightly lowered suspension) as a low risk option, cos by the time I get bored it'll be time to start looking again!
Can see what your guy's concern would be about people getting caught with high tax vhicles - which is why I'd have thought they'd give the high emission vehicles a year or two to flush through the system.
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They're hurting from the loss of BIK tax as people are opting out. Also, because they're out of the system people aren't choosing with regard to the emissions anymore. Funny you mention about taxing every car as I recall reading that they were considering redrawing and taking the cap off the VED to take the shine off the big gaz guzzlers for everyone. My reading was that he doesn't think that the treasury will give everyone a couple of years to sort it out and they'll get hit sooner rather than later. Whether this is just a hunch or he's read something, I don't know.
Sorry, can't remember. It was either Elegance or Avantgarde, definitely not the Classic. But I'm pretty sure that it didn't have sports suspension. It's hardly a chalk and cheese situation so whichever one you choose you're unlikely to be disappointed.
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One other benefit the merc has is an iPOD connector for £170 - when a CD changer is £300+ in both - even though I don't have an iPOD (I'm a Creative Zen boy...) it's worth getting one - £170 plus a 20Gig iPOD for the same as a CD changer...
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I'd go for the Audi, alot less common. Everywhere ya look there's a E Class. Isnt there an improved 3.o tdi out now or am i getting it confused with something else?!
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Don't think they've changed the engine since it was launched.
I'll certainly be taking the audi for a spin - it's just that I've got one now, so maybe fancy a change (except of course a 3 litre quattro is a bit of a change from a 2 litre FWD!!).
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I've seen a road test of an A6 2.7 TDI recently - might have been in Diesel Car - where they thought there was little difference between the 2.7 and 3.0.
I don't know how much snow and ice you get in Embsay (if as I think it's in the North Riding) but a rear-wheel-drive Merc may be no better than a BMW in icy conditions.
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I had an unaccompanied test drive in an A6 3.0 TDi. Don't make your decision before driving one of these. Audi have transformed the handling of the A6, the engine is sewing machine smooth and you wouldn't know it was a diesel inside or out. The interior quality is as good as anything on the market.
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I agree. Have done 6,000 miles in an A4 3.0Tdi and the engine is superb. Quattro makes a huge difference to the road holding.
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Re the Gordon Brown out to getcha points, I dont believe that emmisions related taxation on cars bought or financed with allowances provided in lieu of a co car could be brought in within two years.
The 525d has been mentioned, what about a 530d or a 330d if you do not need the space, or - if you do - a new 330d touring?
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As someone who is getting fed up with his increasing tax burden, I certainly hope that you're right, though the article stated that the details were currently being worked out. What are the lead time is on these matters and do you have extra information on this that I can pass on to our fleet manager?
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Thanks all - embsay is just a weeny bit inside the Dales national park - we don't get a huge amount of snow and ice (does anyone, any more?), but good point on the rwd thing.
Will call the audi people today to get a go in a 3.0Tdi.
Decided against the beemers as the monthly cost is a lot more than either merc or audi, although it was top of the list at one point.
Keep 'em coming, folks - all good stuff!
One question - is the e-class an 'old blokes car', as my mate said yesterday?
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Once again I'm going to suggest that you take a Chrysler 300C CRD out for a road test.
The same engine as the E320 CDI, more room than an A6, a spec list at standard which makes you wonder how Merc/Audi/BMW get away with it.
OK the emissions are highish (@215 g/km), but at a list price of £25750 (or in other words AT LEAST £10000 less than a Merc/Audi when you've added auto box, powered & heated leather seats, xenon lights, parking sensors etc) you're going to be quids & quids in PLUS, you're not driving the same identikit German box as everyone else.
By all means dismiss it AFTER a test drive (or if the looks don't suit), but can I suggest that you give it a shot.
MTC
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I've had a look on the list, Murphy - and bizarrely even though the list price is so much less the monthly cost of the Chrysler is actually higher than the merc or the audi - I assume it's resale value.
Will look up a local dealer and go and have a peek anyway!
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Ahhh leasing, the last dark craft ......
seriously though, I still buy my cars outright so for me leasing rates are a mystery.
By the time you've added some goodies on (auto box, leather etc - which are dear on a Merc/Audi/BMW) does it make a substantial difference ?
I'm sorry to keep banging the drum but I'm having such a good time in my 300C CRD taht I want to share it with you (& everyone else).
Here are a few owner reviews which make fairly interesting
www.whatcar.com/car-review-readers.aspx?RT=669
- please bear in mind that I'm talking about the diesel, not the 5.7 lt V8 HEMI or the 3.5 lt V6 (the guy from Worcestershire has more money than sense IMHO). The only gripes seem to be the handling on American roads - don't be put off as the european cars are tweaked in that department.
For my curiousity, if you manage to fine a dealer with a diesel demo and take one for a blast - can you let me know on here what you thought of it ?
MTC
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What are the lead time is on these matters and do you have extra information on this that I can pass on to our fleet manager?
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No, just thinking how long the emmisions based BiK took to implement from when it was first touted as an idea. That being said I suppose some of the work then was in establishing benchmarks etc which now exist so is work that does not have to be done again.
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Re the Gordon Brown out to getcha points, I dont believe that emmisions related taxation on cars bought or financed with allowances provided in lieu of a co car could be brought in within two years.
How the heck are they going to do that? The allowance is (almost) exactly the same as salary, so all empoyers would have to do is roll the allowance completely into employees salary. As both allowance and salary are tax and NI'able already, the only obvious difference is that a 'rolled in' allowance would have to have both employers and employees pension contributions, but that's a relatively minor incremental cost.
What I *have* heard, is that the Government is recepetive to the idea that road tax (VED) should be dramatically increased on 'gas guzzling' cars, however I would imagine that there are many more people who buy their own cars who would be hit by this, than there are company drivers who have chosen gas guzzlers.
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God knows, but presumably that's the knot that the genuises at the treasury are trying to cut. I can't imagine it's an insurmountable problem but the way they've dealt with company car tax thus far doesn't give me any comfort. I've read about the VED proposals so maybe they're thinking of targeting this at particular groups. Dunno. Luckily Andy's not going for a Hemi or a V8 Range Rover so it's not an issue.
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presumably that's the knot that the genuises at the treasury are trying to cut. I can't imagine it's an insurmountable problem but the way they've dealt with company car tax thus far doesn't give me any comfort.
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the article here (several monhts old now) tells you how these genius these genuises got it wrong lot are:
tinyurl.com/oh7uz
Government figures suggest that 250,000 company car drivers have "disappeared" according to Inland Revenue estimates of the total number of tax-paying business car users. This news has prompted a policy review at the Inland Revenue into why the number is falling.
Estimates released by civil servants reveal that the total number of tax-paying company car drivers plummeted from 1.6 million to 1.35 million in the two years to November 2003. .....
There has been growing interest in cash-for-car schemes and employee car ownership schemes since the government introduced the new carbon dioxide-based company car tax system. While it is working on encouraging drivers into greener company-owned vehicles, it means any driver choosing a more powerful car with high emissions is heavily penalised. The most obvious impact has been in the growth in diesel sales. ....
When the new tax system was launched, experts at the Inland Revenue expected the number of company car drivers to increase by hundreds of thousands because the new tax system was fairer and cheaper, if you chose the right car. So when the estimates of company car numbers landed on the desk of government ministers, they proved expensive reading.
As a result of the drop, revenues from company car tax have taken a nose dive. Tax of £2.66bn in 2000/2001 fell by £120m in 2003/2004. It will fall by a further £140m in 2004/2005. That is enough to keep a large local authority or a hospital going for a year.
Experts are now examining what has caused the change in company car levels at a time when the economy is relatively healthy. Certainly, there has been growth in opting out, particularly in employee car ownership schemes. ...
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I think I mentioned earlier that the eco schemes that allow the employer to keep the employees business mileage tax rebate are nothing short of bizarre. That just smells of Tax Dodge.
For people who are fairly occasional business users, however, I don't see there's very much difference in tax? Tax on a typical A4, 3 Series etc would be around £150/mth, depending on model etc. If you take an allowance instead, of say, £500/mth, then you still have to pay tax on that of £200/mth. It only really starts to make sense, and cost the Government money, if you do a fair old business mileage.
Am I missing something? Maybe because the tax from allowances is bundled together with other PAYE, the Government can't see it as a separate amount?
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Am I missing something?
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no, the revenue are losing just the carbon emissions related tax. and thus losing the influence on people to buy more eco-friendly cars.
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>> Am I missing something? >> no, the revenue are losing just the carbon emissions related tax.>>
Yes but the cash given in lieu of the car is taxed at 40% ....
and thus losing the influence on people to buy more eco-friendly cars.>>
... and the vehicle that is purchased is subject to VAT, the fuel used is heavily taxed which is an incentive not to buy a gas guzzler, likewise big, expensive and thirsty cars are more expensive to service, tyres etc, lastly RFL is less for economical cars. I.e. there are quite a few incentives for the driver who is used to a fully expensed co car to be sensible in how he/she uses an allowance without emissions based taxation in this area.
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IME when people opt out they tend to go big or sportier and don't give much thought to the various expenses you mention; they don't drop a bundle on tyres or a service and think about their car's high emissions. Four chaps who opted out from our marketing dept. drive respectively a V8 Touareg, an XK8 and 2 Boxter S. They wear the costs as a badge of honour, they love their cars and scoff at the idea of driving a company oil-burner. They know nothing about cars but know what they want to be seen driving. These guys were previously driving 3 series and A4s on the company list. Andy could save some money by sticking with his A6 2.0tdi but is quite understandably looking to get something more powerful. I was the same position with my curent car. It costs more, I didn't need it but I wanted it so I went for it. It's human nature to stretch to what you can get right now.
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I agree 100% Martin, the point is that if someone goes from a co A6 2.0 TDi to, for instance, a V8 Toureg then the gov is getting a big hike in tax revenues irrespective of whether the tax burden is emissions related.
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But from the governments point of view they lose the opportunity to influence emissions over a significant sector of car users. If they can claw back just as much money with an emissions related charge then they're seen to be hitting 2 birds with one stone.
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Difficult one. If they are going to tax allowance based purchases on emissions then why not all private purchases? - perhaps they will one day. However the reason for co car emmisions based taxation was that in having a fully expensed car there was no need for the co car driver to select based on economy or any cost factor other than list price/benchmark value. This is not the case with a private purchase/lease where economy and running costs are considerations for the buyer, if he want to splash out on a V8 Toureg he pays for it, if he goes for a 1.6 diesel Focus he saves.
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To you first point yes, I said just this in one of my posts above and I suspect it's inevitable. To your second, yes in theory people would want to save money and downsize or at least stay the same, but it doesn't seem to happen like that as many people will pay more and don't consider emissions as, VED aside, they is no clearly flagged tax directly linked to emissions.
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Yeah, that seems to be the jist of what my man was saying, though he gave the impression that plans were moving apace. Whether it's just a hunch or he knows more than he's letting on I don't know. I'm sure that the end of the 3% euro IV exemption will see a substantial fall off in company car users which might speed up any proposed measures.
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Don't know if this makes any difference to the taxman, but the scheme where I'm going charges interest at 7.25% pa - and that's obviously charged to me.
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Right - got the quotes, includes insurance, maintenance and of course no benefit in kind tax:
E280CDi auto, DVD sat nav, phone wiring, parktronic, iPOD prep:
£636 over 3 years, £687 over 2.
A6 3.0Tdi tiptronic, DVD sat nav, phone, parking aids, lighting pack (xenons that look round corners): £692 over 3 years - 2 years was over £800.
Firm gives me £360 net towards it, so anything else comes from me (but really from my BIK saving). Getting a reasonably poky pay rise too, so not really bothered over £50 here or there.
So - obviously be test driving both but need to make a fairly speedy decision.
Merc pluses: option to take over 2 years, or taking it over 3 years saves £56 a month. I've not had one before, and I've always liked the look of the e-class.
Merc minuses: some reliability questions in the past, "old blokes car"(?), 2WD, stupid foot/hand brake
Audi pluses: Got one and like it, 4WD, quality unquestioned.
Audi minuses: Got one(!), slightly more expensive (specially over 3 years), auto box not quite as good as new Merc one(?), stupid electronic handbrake.
Stumped - this could come down to the toss of a coin if they both drive well!!
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Aarrrgh!! Don't confuse me further! Was quite keen on the beemer, but the cost was much, much higher - like £100 a month.
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Do you know the A4 now has the 230 bhp 3.0 TDi? Reckon a 330d touring would be good on lease.
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