What springs to mind is events like the G8 summit this year where police from all over Britain were working in Edinburgh. Slightly different I know.
Maybe watched too many US films like Smokie where the Sheriff had to give up cos he had passed the boundary line!
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I may be wrong but I thought that a police officer based in one force only had the right to carry out a citizens arrest in another force boundary.
Where's Fullchat when you need him;)
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There must be exceptions H. My Dad's gone all over the country to "re-arrest" people and take them to a prison here.
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There must be exceptions H. My Dad's gone all over the country to "re-arrest" people and take them to a prison here.
I understood that to be fine, but a e.g. Wiltshire officer couldn't patrol e.g. Frome (in Somerset) or Gillingham (Dorset) because he or she would be out of area. Going to "retrieve" people is different.
I'd imagined that someone somewhere must have sat down and agreed which bits of the motorway network each force patrolled, i just wondered if in fact this was the case.
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Sorry mare - kinda went off track a little.
I would imagine in your case it was pre-determined. When you see all the chase programs, they always have to radio and ask permission to chase them into another county.
If that is true, it is stupid. The Police are the Police. They shoudl have predetermined routes yes but not all the red tape associated with chasing in other counties. An argument for the alamgamation of some Police forces (even though I'm against it on the whole).
That reminds me, I saw a Merseyside Police panda car in Skem (Lancashire) last week. A fair distance from the motorway too.
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Police officers don't have "citizens" arrest powers. They have powers enshrined in law. Those laws will change from next year under SOCPA which also give citizens power to arrest under certain circumstances.
Without wishing to go into the whole act:
The old power of arrest without warrant for an "arrestable" offence is replaced with the power of arrest without warrant for an 'offence'
A police officer may arrest (without warrant)
(a) anyone who is about to commit an offence;
(b) anyone who is in the act of committing an offence;
(c) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence;
(d) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an offence.
(certain conditions are laid down, I won't bore you with them)
There is nothing to stop Leicestershire officers getting off their backsides and trooping on masse to Southampton to arrest miscreants.
As regards Joe Public:
You...yes....you.....may arrest me....yes....me for an indictable offence, It must be necessary to make the arrest and an officer must not be available to make it for you (Currently, that is going to happen a lot when 43 forces are merged into 1 and a fat, sweaty PC has to cycle from Penzance to Nottingham to deal with your call for assistance)
The other caveats to your arrest powers are to prevent the arrested person
(a) causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(b) suffering physical injury;
(c) causing loss of or damage to property; or
(d) making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.('cos by now, the PC from Penzance is only 400 yards from his nick, stopped at his tea hole for a tea and toast & jam, so only hundreds of miles to go!)
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They are usually allowed to cross borders if in "close pursuit" but would normally ask their control room to contact the control room of the next force.
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The M58 motorway begins in Liverpool (Merseyside) , passes through Ormskirk and Skelmersdale (Lancashire) and ends in Greater Manchester (my house!) but is policed entirely by Lancashire Police. Of course, you may see a Gtr Manchester cop car using it to get to another junction or the same with a Merseyside cop car no matter where you are on the motorway, (it's not that long to be honest), the marked Range Rovers will always belong to Lancashire.
So obviously there must be some preset agreement somewhere.
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Police Officers in England and Wales can excersise their full powers anywhere in the two countries. In fact there is a tale of a Met Officer who calls a rural control room to book on duty (so he could claim the money - overtime) when he witnessed a crime and nicked the fellon.
Officers going to G8 had to be sworn in as Constables in Scotland to excersise their powers.
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The Met frequently wander over the border into Surrey.
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TourVanMan < yes its RF reborn >
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Forget what I said above. Even though I could go back and delete it, I won't. I shall leave it as a shrine to my ignorence, slightly diminished by those who know - thanks ;)
I stand corrected,
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Ah but Hugo you know far more useful things for the real world whereas I know next to nothing useful.
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The cross boundary issue is nothing to do with police powers. it is to do with the juristiction of the courts. A constable in an English or Welsh force has full powers anywhere in england and wales. No or very limited powers in scotland.
A special constable only has powers in his own or an ajoining county, whilst on duty.
When I was in the job my station area in Derbyshire was bounded by leicestershire and staffordshire. We has to pass through these areas at times to get to parts of our own area. All that happened is that if I arrested someone in another force area then if possible the offender was taken to one of their police stations for processing as it would be one of their court areas.
One exception is if an offence ocurred within 200 yards of a county boundary when juristiction could be claimed.
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Most of what back roomers here are talking about are about "polite protocols" not law i.e, letting another force know you are about on their manor. This is mainly good etiquette, as well as for health and safety reasons, prevention of Blue on Blue situations, seeking assistance of locals and maybe sharing a jar or two and a curry/kebab/chinese with them later on, swinging the lamp, swapping war stories etc.
There will be occasions where you will NOT tell the locals you are coming. Not because they are tight tee-totalers, but for sensitivity/confidentiality reasons. In those cases, they usually know that you have been once you have gone or have turned up in their custody area.
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The M58 motorway begins in Liverpool (Merseyside) , passes through Ormskirk and Skelmersdale (Lancashire) and ends in Greater Manchester (my house!) but is policed entirely by Lancashire Police. Of course, you may
Sorry Adam, not wishing to be pedantic ;) but the M58 doesn't begin in Liverpool.
It goes from Aintree, which is in Sefton, through West Lancashire and then to Wigan (Gretaer Manchester).
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>>It goes from Aintree, which is in Sefton>>
Not wishing to be pedantic but the M58 starts at the end of Northway/Switch Island and this is in Maghull..:-)
The M62 from the M6 to The Rocket at Liverpool is mainly patrolled by Merseyside police but there is one stretch that is covered by Cheshire - both forces often help each other out, particularly with regard to pursuits etc.
Before the arrival of digital radio sets, I used to listen to the police channels and once followed a pursuit which started in Crewe, went along the M6 south, down the A500 and A50 and finally ended in Leicestershire, where a Leicestershire police crew assisted Cheshire with the stopping of the vehicle involved.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Jeez I knew the north was a bit uncharted, but not knowing where the motorways are?
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TourVanMan < yes its RF reborn >
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>>but not knowing where the motorways are?>>
Ut's not quite like that..:-)
Maghull and Aintree are adjacent to each other.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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>>but not knowing where the motorways are?>> Ut's not quite like that..:-) Maghull and Aintree are adjacent to each other.
Got confused with the M57, but I'm not sure I was right about that. Looking at an A-Z it seems that both start within the Melling boundary.
In any case, Aintree, Maghull and Melling are all in Sefton and some miles outside of Liverpool.
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They have 0151 area codes and Liverpool Post Codes. And people who come there speak with a friendly scouse accent.
Therfore - Liverpool to the people who don't live anywhere near there ;-)
Let's stop the pedantry now;-) I've exceeded my daily allowance.
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Traffic police cover large distances on training runs to get a complete mix of roads.
Senior police officers go to conferences all over the country in official cars.
There are probably many other reasons why police are seen in other areas.
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Some Forces have arrangements for for practicallity reasons to cover areas within other Force boundaries particularly as regards Motorway Policing.
For example Humberside covers a stretch of the M18 between the junctions with the M62 (Langham) and the M180(Ings).this stretch is mostly within the S.Yorks boundary.
Breath test legislation requires a detained person to be taken to the nearest Police station with an Appproved Device. This can necessitate crossing a boundary to the nearest station which is in another Force area. No great shakes as the equipment is universal and paperwork has a national format. A National Police Force?? Watch this space.
Fullchat
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Fullchat, thank you for the answer from someone in the job. Presumably Wiltshire cover the M4 between j.14 and either 17 or 18, in agreement with neighbouring forces.
Ta, curiousity back in box
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Last saturday, fully liveried transit sized van with blues+twos going joined the M6 northbound at stoke (Staffordshire) and proceded at (about ;-)) 80mph through Cheshire, and was still hairing north past J25 (Greater Manchester)
what was that liklely to have been about ?
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Last saturday, fully liveried transit sized van with blues+twos going joined the M6 northbound at stoke (Staffordshire) and proceded at (about ;-)) 80mph through Cheshire, and was still hairing north past J25 (Greater Manchester) what was that liklely to have been about ?
Police going to a football match perhaps?
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I'f he'd gone off down the M56, I'd assume he was rushing someone to Manchester airport !
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The M58 motorway begins in Liverpool (Merseyside) , passes through Ormskirk and Skelmersdale (Lancashire) and ends in Greater Manchester (my house!)
Having a motorway end in your house must surely cause a few inconveniences, as well as the odd interrupton to the domestic peace
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No-one's being pedantic - you're right! I could say I didn't want to confuse people so I said it began in Liverpool (because technically to people who don't live near it, it is) but I'm not going to!
Stuart saying that reminds me of something. I've heard it's on the cards as a possibility that Merseyside and Cheshire Police are going to merge.
NW - damned inconvenient. I've managed it now so that as soon as you round the bend to the end of the motorway, you can slam on and skid right into my drive.
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In the there are 43 police forces, 44 if you include the british transport police, sorry 44 if you also include the royal parks police, sorry 45 if you include the RUC.
Now I really can't see the point in having 44 sets of administration, 44 sets of uniforms, 44 chief constables, 44 deputy chief constables, 44 headquarters, 44 control rooms, 44 gold commands, etc etc etc.....
Its time the UK police force was reorganised into one national police force, with (and here is the motoring link) a seperate Highway Patrol type force.
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TourVanMan < yes its RF reborn >
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That seems to be happening RF.
Like I said earlier, one of the proposals is Merseyside and Cheshire merging, then Lancashire and Cumbria merging and leaving GMP on it's on. Another proposal is a variation of that but I can't remember!
I imagine it's much the same across the country. I can see the argument for it - avoiding cross county problems but I can see it all going horribly wrong. I don't know why - but I can.
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It was not that long ago (3 or 4 years maybe) that Scottish police were only able to pursue suspects into England if they waved a burning torch at the border.
As I live within sight on England and regularly travel south to Carlisle, I always wondered what it would be like to be chased by the police near Gretna. Would they wind down the window of their partol car and stick a big burning torch out, or would they have to stop to get it lit properly?
Things have changed now and they can follow you with no problems at all.
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I suspect you are not wrong Adam, 43 x n IT systems to amalgamate for starters....
And when are they wanting this all done by when? :-)
I'm sure they'll try and I'm sure it will revert. This has been looked at before.
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Its time the UK police force was reorganised into one national police force, with (and here is the motoring link) a seperate Highway Patrol type force.
I can see the logic in this. Simple things like i once called 999 on the Frome (Somerset) bypass to report a fight (on the side on the road, about 6 people), and three times got put through to Wiltshire, in Devizes. We'll pass the message on was the reply. They couldn't transfer me to Avon and Somerset in Portishead, let alone Frome Police Station.
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The officer has a warrant , which theoretically is issued by the Queen , and can certainly arrest you anywhere. In practice if well out of his/her "home" and the offence was also "away" may hand you over to the local force for processing.
The M40 is another example where the police -Met, Thames Valley, Northants, Warwicks, West Mids, etc -divide the road between them based on exits rather than force boundaries.
They will make a judgement as to how far they will pursue someone into another force's section based on offence severity, safety, conditions,cover on the "home" section etc.
A few years ago police from West Mids pursued an armed robber right down the M40, thru 2 other forces areas ( who helped) then arrested them near here (Thames Valley)
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Sounds more like mobile/cell phone issue than a policing problem.
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Sounds more like mobile/cell phone issue than a policing problem.
granted, we were less than a mile from the border, so the cell picking up my signal was in Wilts, but shouldn't the police be able to either:
a) transfer you
b) turn up
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I agree it would be nice if they just took the call and dealth with it as appropriate. I think its a case of lack of control room resources or maybe some other issue on the day - who knows.
I can assure you neighbouring forces did have the ability to transfer calls on the old fashion PBX phone systems.
When I had a puncture "n" weeks ago, I used the roadside phone wich rang and rang and rang. Eventually had to call using mobile. Chap who answered explained he had seen my call incoming but was tied up on an existing call. It happens I guess, but I know mobile incomings weren't popular as you could be anywhere and this assumes people are where they say they are. The number of bogus calls diverting resources are unreal, and mobiles are favourite for this.
A&S got more than there fair share of Welsh callers from the M4 - best signal = across the estuary. Would the mobile network guys sort this out - erm no.
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But surelt there are this many due to the sheer size of the national force?
If you went with one force you would still need a tier of management in each area, you would still need admin in each area etc etc.
Yes I could see savings with one uniform but going down your route, then before long your 999 call would be getting answered in India......
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>Yes I could see savings with one uniform but going down your route, then before long your 999 call would be getting answered in India......
My calls get answered in M Keynes (40 miles) or Slough (35) - whereas they used to get answered in Abingdon (11). As a result there is no local knowledge (computer normally says No) and I get the impression that I'd have done better calling the Salvation Army.
Top tip for elderly relatives - if they think there is a person on or close to their house in/post the act of burgling them, and they can call 999, call for Fire and Police. Response times for Fire, esp. in rural areas are often half of Police. If I was a burglar I wouldn't argue with five guys each with an axe on their belt....
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Funnily enough they can show you in TVP that they can improve response times running 2 centres than they did with the 6 they had before .Unfortunately criminals don't commit crime in an even pattern , so with 6 smaller areas you could have a crew in one area attending a minor call while in another area they were swamped by major stuff.
Yes I know the perception is that it takes longer than it did- the big chnage is mobile phones, people are far more likely to report things than they were when they had to find a phone box or even go home to call.
They also have pretty clever mapping and other software to give info about the area . There was , before, no guarantee that the operator in your local centre had any knowledge of your area- could well have commuted to work there. Also in the 6-centre system when calls to one centre overflowed they would be answered at another depending on who had capacity ( just like other callcentres do) - this meant you got answered sooner than you would have otherwise, but created inevitable delays then as the operator elsewhere had to interact with your local centre to get a crew dispatched.
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I duty at a suite were Officers from neighbouring Forces routinely arrive to interview suspects from this neck of the wood either by arrangment or otherwise.
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Loosely related, fire brigades (authorities) have reciprocal mutual assistance agreements so that if a RTC/incident occurred near one brigades boundary but within another brigades boundary, theoretically the nearest appliance would turn out. In some places I think the MOD fire service would turn out to RTC's close to their base.
Maybe not just the police that are amalgamated to one organisation in the future. The vote against regional assembly in north east stamped talk of regional brigade out. Recent murmurs of police amalgamating are in the news though.
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