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Cars to my knowledge do not pay road tax but VEL for the right to polute and damage the enviroment,the majority of car drivers are quite considerate about cyclists but the exceptions are pure danger on wheels.I would think looking around on dark mornings there deems to be ever increasing number of cars with faulty lights ,I see the same cars day in and out with the same lights out with no intention of ever repairing them .I would hate to see what the condition of the parts you cannot see.
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As an ex cycle commuter the original question shows what the problem is.
There are too many road users who do not think and do not care what effects their actions have on others, some are on bikes (don steel helmet) MOST OF THEM DRIVE CARS.
Anyone who doubts this should get on a bike and experience it!
BTW the answer that "I pay tax ...." just illustrates the problem! We ALL pay tax.
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The ones that get me are the groups of "sporting" cyclists that go out on their racers at a weekend - you know, the ones that dress up like power-rangers and ninja turtles!
Why do they insist on riding 3 and sometimes 4 abreast even when on lanes with blind corners, causing obstruction for miles on end?
You can just tell they are doing it on purpose, because every time the road straightens out enough to be able to overtake, they pull even further out and block the road!
They must lead very happy and fulfilling lives!
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I must point out the error in storme's post which started this thread. There is no such things as a 60mph road. There are roads with a maximum speed of 60mph, which you should only do if it is safe, and if you suddenly come across a cyclist or horserider and have to swerve to avoid them then you were going too fast in the first place.
Try driving so you can stop in the distance you can see to be safe, as the law requires you to and it won't happen.
(Fed up cyclist who taxes a high milage car plus a m/bike and spends far more on motoring taxes than most of those who whinge about "cyclists don't pay tax...")
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Why do motorists give inches you when they pass you, and speed past with no consideration to your safety?
The same could be said of cyclists when there's a queue of stationary cars and they come hurtling by, leaving just inches between themselves and your door mirror, or zig zagging in between the cars depending on whether there's a slightly wider gap on the nearside or offside of your car. Try driving around Oxford (the car hating capital of the UK) if you want to see kamikaze cyclists a plenty.
And let's not forget how many cyclists jump red lights.
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QUOTE : Andy Bairsto "We do"
The one that was mowed down by a tipper truck coming the other way last year isn't leading a fulfilling life any more....
I wonder if he was still feeling smug as the Scania's front headlamp smashed through his skull.....
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I used to be quite tolerant of cyclists until an oh-so-respectable middle-class family of them came along the pavement one sunny Sunday morning, prompting me to prevent my partner's 80-year-old mother from being pushed aside into a wall. And you should have seen the looks of astonishment when my action forced the mother cyclist to come to a halt. I refrained from exchanging words for fear that the old lady's anxiety would be made a good deal worse.
I just don't geddit with that kind of behaviour other than in terms of its being yet another manifestation of the me-generation selfishness, thoughtlessness and arrogance that surrounds us all and makes me spit. God help their children. Does attitude and behaviour change when you get on a bike? I would like to think it doesn't, but sometimes it seems to exacerbate innate negative qualities.
Yes, I always give cyclists wobble room on the road. If they didn't break so many basic rules of the road so often, they would make the motorist's role somewhat easier and would be safer for it.
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Do you give them the room as required by the Highway code very few actually do .A bicycle should be treated as though it was as wide as a car
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A bicycle should be treated as though it was as wide as a car
See my earlier comments.
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It would have a far bigger effect on safety if MOTORISTS followed the basic rules of the road. As I said earlier - if you have riden one you understand, if you haven't go out and try it if you dare - if you dare not ask yourself if it is the cyclists or the motorists you are worried about!
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>> A bicycle should be treated as though it was as wide as a car See my earlier comments.
Dave,
I can see where you're coming from (and weaving/blind spot lurking are bad practices) but it fails the reality test. The dynamics of a moving car passing a moving cyclist are completely different to those of a moving cyclist passing a stationery car.
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Dave, I can see where you're coming from (and weaving/blind spot lurking are bad practices) but it fails the reality test. The dynamics of a moving car passing a moving cyclist are completely different to those of a moving cyclist passing a stationery car.
Perhaps I should clarify. I see nothing wrong in overtaking a cyclist without leaving a huge ammount of room when traffic is moving slowly. What really gets my goat is the car drivers who sit behind a cyclist for ages until the endless stream of traffic coming from the opposite direction has ceased.
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I get equally annoyed at irresponsible law breaking cyclists, but it still doesn't justify giving all cyclists a hard time because of a reckless minority.
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On a fast road I tend to ride in the middle of the lane to force drivers to perform a proper overtake. Nothing worse than car drivers passing you very quickly with sometimes inches clearance.
Tho I will pull in if there's a long queue of cars behind me.
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On a fast road I tend to ride in the middle of the lane to force drivers to perform a proper overtake. Tho I will pull in if there's a long queue of cars behind me.
You're kidding, right? So you deliberately ride on a fast road, in a manner likely to cause obstruction??
I'm glad I'm not your life insurer, because one day (probably sooner rather than later) you're going to find yourself either : (a) hit by a car/van/truck/bus being driven by someone who didn't see you or misjudged your position or (b) hit by a car/van/truck/bus who did see you but took exception to your selfish actions!
Nothing worse than car drivers passing you very quickly with sometimes inches clearance.
Erm... yes, there is something worse that a car passing very quick with sometimes inches clearance - and that is a car passing very quick with no clearance because you're driving in the middle of the road!
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A bicycle should be treated as though it was as wide as a car
A car should be treated as a hard metal object weighing in excess of a ton, that is very likely to kill you if it hits you!
Being "in the right" is no consolation to a dead man!
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If the car/bus/van didn't see me in the middle of the road, he's even less likely to see me riding in the gutter.
And I have been hit by someone who misjudged my position or didn't see me, and he would have done if I'd been in the middle of the lane.
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If the car/bus/van didn't see me in the middle of the road, he's even less likely to see me riding in the gutter.
But if you're in the gutter, you're not in his way!!! Therefore it doesn't matter whether he sees you or not!!! Durrr!
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Oh, I forgot, If you're in the gutter, you're not going to pink fluffy dice everyone else off, so scenario (b) above is not going to happen!
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If you ride in the gutter, you make it more likely that someone behind you will try and squeeze past, when there is no room to do so safely due to oncoming traffic.
I have just bought a bike (after 20 years on non-cycling) and the two things I have noticed are that oncoming drivers do not dip their headlights, and overtaking drivers pass much too close. It's had an affect on my own driving and the consideration I now show to cyclists.
Anyone who criticises the way in which people cycle really out to be forced to do a few miles on a bike themselves, they might learn a thing or two.
Nothing in ths post is intended to excuse things like riding on pavements, or riding about at night in black clothes with no lights.
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But if you're in the gutter, you're not in his way!!! Therefore it doesn't matter whether he sees you or not!!! Durrr!
If you're in the gutter he ignores you and passes by without slacking speed, leaving no escape route. The gutter is full of potholes, carp including possibly broken glass, may contain slippy yellow lines and is out of the visual sweep of all and sundry including pedestrians about to step off the kerb. It is a very dangerous place indeed.
The primary riding position David Horn describes is reccomended by all informed authorities on the subject incuding the semi official "Cyclecraft" published by HMSO.
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Sorry - can you refer me to the page of Cyclecraft which recommends that you cycle in the middle of the lane on a fast road, only pulling in when a long queue of cars has built up???
If you can find it, I'll eat my... erm... cycle hat!
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If a queue of cars builds up, it suggests that the only way they could overtake you while riding in the gutter would be to remain on your side of the road and brush past.
Do you also feel that tractors etc should be banned from the road in case they slow you down? I'm guessing that's the case since you refer to them as "60mph roads", when it's the case that 60mph is the maximum speed you can do on that road...
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What on earth are you on???
A tractor (in case you hadn't noticed) is (a) much bigger, (b) much easier to see, and most importantly (c) much much much much much less vulnerable to cars than a little power-ranger on his pushbike!
What part of the law of physics don't you get? Bike versus Car = Bike rider hurt or killed, Car driver unscathed!
I cycle myself. I am frankly appalled by the shocking standards of most drivers. Yet I would never try to "prove a point" by driving in the middle of the road "just because I am right" because I value my life far too much!
What are you hoping to achieve? Do you *really* think that by driving in the middle of the road, you're going to re-educate drivers? Of course not. The one's which are awake enough to see you are going to think "what's this pink fluffy dice doing in the middle of the road" and the other half that don't see you.... well, best of luck!
Use your common sense mate!
I'm going to end my last post on this subject by reiterating my last statement... "being 'in the right' is no consolation to a dead man". Even less consolation to his grieving family...
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Who are you talking to? You seem to have responded to my post, but then start whining on about the words "60mph roads".
I've not mentioned "60mph roads"...
I quoted your use of "fast roads"...
RTFP !!
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Sorry, I assumed from your indignant and self rightious attitude that you were the original thread author. You say you ride... surely your roads have the same cars blasting by inches from you, many times not even seeing you despite being head to toe in fluorescent clothes and flashing lights?
And I assume your roads have the usual grit, broken glass, car parts, tree branches, drains, leaves, and litter in that mine have?
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Sorry, I assumed from your indignant and self rightious attitude that you were the original thread author. You say you ride... surely your roads have the same cars blasting by inches from you, many times not even seeing you despite being head to toe in fluorescent clothes and flashing lights? And I assume your roads have the usual grit, broken glass, car parts, tree branches, drains, leaves, and litter in that mine have?
Yes, regrettably they do. Also, living in the countryside, my local roads tend to be even narrower than those in the cities, so the cars overtake even closer...
However, I accept this as a fact of life, and put up with it on the basis that there is nothing I can do to fix it. I use cycle paths wherever possible. I fit puncture-proof inner tubes. I constantly check behind me and if I'm on a particularly narrow bit of road and I see an approaching lorry or bus, I usually stop until it's passed. I certainly don't respond by putting myself in even more danger by riding like a muppett!
Riding in the gutter may well get me a puncture from time to time (even with the puncture-proof inner tubes), and yes, cars do sometimes overtake a little close. But I personally prefer that to an unscheduled visit to the morgue.
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MoneyMart,
Pursuing a thesis I'll explore later, do you cycle (a)as a commuter (b)for short a-b journeys or (c)solely for leisure?
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MoneyMart, Pursuing a thesis I'll explore later, do you cycle (a)as a commuter (b)for short a-b journeys or (c)solely for leisure?
(a) in the past, yes (did a daily 32 mile commute on urban A roads rain or shine for several years)
(b) frequently (usually on lanes and A roads, and nowadays only in good weather)
AND (c) frequently in the summer yes, through countryside and on cycle paths. Not very often in the winter, and never on busy roads (can't see the pleasure in that for all the reasons already mentioned)
I also drive a car around 20,000 miles a year.
Anything else I can help you with?!?
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Ah. Interesting. From your quoted news articles, one of the riders was struck a "glancing blow". Which stands to reason that he wasn't in the middle of the road, otherwise he'd have been squished. I don't understand the reason for posting them... they were hit-and-run cases that have no relevance to this discussion whatsoever.
From your posts I get the impression that you feel that cyclists should be banned completely from the roads - after all, daring to ride on the road will result in instant death.
Fortunately, I only have to ride on them to get from one bridlepath to another.
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Ah. Interesting. From your quoted news articles, one of the riders was struck a "glancing blow". Which stands to reason that he wasn't in the middle of the road, otherwise he'd have been squished.
How can you conclude that, based on the scantest of information????!!!!. The guy who received a glancing blow might have been completely uninjured if he'd been riding "sensibly".
Perhaps the glancing blow was the result of a driver who wasn't concentrating and only saw him at the last minute but because he was in the middle of the road, was unable to swerve wide enough to avoid hitting him?
From your posts I get the impression that you feel that cyclists should be banned completely from the roads - after all, daring to ride on the road will result in instant death.
Nothing could be further from the truth! As a cyclist myself, I understand your frustration and anger, and agree with the generalisation that most car drivers are oblivious to cyclists.
What I disagree with is your attitude and refusal to accept that as a bike rider you are more vulnerable than the vast majority of other road users and should act accordingly. You are not invincible!
You cannot "teach" drivers a lesson by riding in the middle of the road. The only thing you are doing is greatly increasing your risk of being hit and injured/killed.
It's like swimming in a shark infested swimming pool on the basis that you have the right to swim there. You are technically correct, but sooner or later you are going to be bitten!
Anyway, I have bigger fish to fry, and I'm bored pointing out the bleeding obvious... Enjoy your retort!
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My theory is that newbie/leisure and returnee cyclists have an unfounded fear that leads them to ride too close in to the kerb. Your vulnerability is much less than lower than you think. Very few cycle accidents (around 5%) involve being hit from behind, and of those that do many are the result of careless weaving/stopping. In fact, for the reasons set out in earlier posts the kerbside is more, not less, dangerous. However, using all your senses is vital ? cycling under headphones is Darwin award stuff ? you soon learn the spatial awareness to keep a picture of what?s behind.
Paraphrasing from Cyclecraft and the earlier advice of Richard Ballantine:
Good road positioning is not about keeping out of the way of other traffic, to do so can actually reduce your margin for safety. Motorists tend to focus on what is in their own lane, and give scant attention beyond 25degrees either side of straight ahead. The urban cyclist needs to take account of that. The aim is to keep yourself visible, which you do, as described by David, by riding in the Primary position towards the centre of your lane. Ballantine calls this "riding high". Obviously one should avoid deliberately impeding following traffic, and to this end there is a secondary position, roughly following the nearside wheel track of a car. Do not be afraid to use your road position to restrict the movement of others if necessary to protect yourself.
What counts as a ?fast? road is subjective but I?ve used the technique above to good effect since 1978 on everything from country lanes to Parliament Square and remained intact.
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