Many thanks for the reply, The part I am concerned/confused about is (as you will know) the flywheel came off when the head was rebuilt and just by looking at it, it seems the flywheel can go back on in any position (four bolts), which means the timing hole will be in the wrong place. Or am I wrong (hopefully) and the flywheel will only go back on in one position, as the bolts to fit it will only line up in one position.
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Just thought I would add as not clear, when the head was rebuilt the timing belt was replaced, hence the flywheel removal.
Thanks, Martin
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We must be talking as cross purposes, or I have misunderstood something, There is no way that the flywheel would have been taken off to do the cambelt. The flywheel will only come off if either the engine or the gearbox have been removed.
Are you mistaking the crankshaft front pulley for the flywheel? The front pulley will have the alternator drive belt on it. The flywheel is between the engine and the gearbox, and should be "invisible" with engine/gearbox in the car.
The crankshaft front pulley does look a bit like a small flywheel, but the manual is refering to the "real" flywheel on the other end of the crank.
Even cylinder head removal/replacement does not need flywheel replacement.
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Yes, I am referring to the pully attatched to the front of the crankshaft which holds the alternator belt, apologies for my wrong namimg and confusion. I have since found out it looks like this pulley does not have a woodruff key and can go on in any position, this means the timing hole will most likely not be in the correct place when the no. 4 cylinder in is TDC. Things are just getting worse. The only way around this I can think of is align the camshaft timing hole, then check the crankshaft timing hole (on the alternator pulley) If the alternator pulley is on wrongly the timing hole should be out by either a 1/4 or 1/2 turn. Hope this makes some sort of sense.
Cheers, Martin
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Reading the manual, the flywheel needs locking, not the pulley.
The photo in the Haynes manual isn't brilliant, but it looks like there is a hole in the cylinder block, at the back of the engine, by a plate rivited onto it. It seems to be above the starter motor. The hole goes at 90 degrees to the car, ie if you stand by the front drivers side wheel and look across towards the other front wheel, this is the direction of the hole.
The front pulley is not part of the cam timing set up and its position is therefore not relevant.
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Now you have explained it, I can see the different referrences to the flywheel and pulley, for some reason I had interperated this as the same thing. As the pulley was on the crank sprocket I thought this was the place you would have to allign to get TDC.
I thought it strange that if the position of the pulley was so critical to setting the timing, why wasnt it 'keyed' to the crank sprocket, as it has nothing to do with the timing, it now makes sense.
As you say, the picture is terrible, I think my biggest and first problem will be to find this hole.
Do you think the problems I describe (smoke, no power) could be down to the timing being slightly out, by about a tooth (which I know it is)?
I am extremly grateful for your help and advice and hate to think what I would have done to the engine without it.
Thanks
Martin
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The locking of the crankshaft, camshaft and fuel pump wheels are vital to the correct timing of this engine. Your symptoms sound like a timing fault. On the TUD5, the flywheel (not pulley) locking hole is at the front of the engine on the opposite side from the starter. If you find the engine speed transducer and move downwards slightly, there is a 6mm hole in the block (axis across the vehicle). Using a short piece of M6 studding with a "nose" ground onto the end, push gently towards the flywheel whilst rotating the engine by hand. At one position only, the studding will drop neatly into a corresponding hole in the flywheel and lock the engine solid.
The camshaft is locked with an M8 bolt (borrow one from the alternator idler bracket), and the injection pump is locked with a 6mm pin - I use a drill shank. If the cam and pump wheels are 180 deg out of position, you need to rotate the crankshaft one further turn.
This engine has a type of vernier timing adjustment on the cam and pump wheels, using 3 bolts on each, fitted into slotted holes. This enables the timing to be precisely set, but if you do not understand the procedure for setting this, I would recommend that you seek further help (available here).
659.
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Thank you for your help, any advice onthe vernier timing would be appreciated.
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Could anyone give me an easy to understand way of finding the flywheel timing hole, please? I have just spent 3 hours staring at the engine and only succeded in getting cold. I do not know what a speed transducer is and the manual does not list one. The picture in the manual of the area (near the engine identifiction plate) is in such extreme close-up that it could be in the boot for all you can tell. I have looked for the ID plate as reference to the hole but cannot see one anywhere.
Any help is appreciated, thanks, Martin
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the flywheel hole is just above the starter motor if you cant find it feel with a screwdriver untill you find it. it could be coverd in dirt i had the same problem. i lined the cam up done the injection pump but could not find the timming marks on the lower pully untill i read yours and the techs advice now its dark and i cant see where all the little fiddly bits go lol i hope this helps as much as you have helped me thanks jazzyb ps check between engine and gear box on passenger side for flywheel hole
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I have found a very good drawing in the manual of the enging (page 2B.3)
In the lower right of the engine (as viewed on the page) I can see the ID plate and what looks like the timing hole, on a flange, above it. The plate appears to be attached to the top of a 'pillar'. Directly below the plate is a sensor.
I have just been to check the engine in the car, the plate, 'pillar', and sensor are not on the engine. Nor is the flangle with the timing hole. Approx where the sensor is shown is a plastic plate covering a hole, which from its position, must lead into the flywheel. This hole is approx a cm or slightly larger in diameter.
Can anyone make sense of this.
Thanks Martin
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The pillar is the dipstick tube.Go to page 2b.5, photo 3.4 you can see that area of the engine a bit better.
Can I suggest that, if you are trying to check the injection pump timing then you do it off the cam sprocket? It may be a fair assumption that the crank/cam timing is correct, in which case if the cam is in the correct position then the pump should be as well. 659fbe obviously knows this engine in more detail than I do. He will be able to verify this.
A couple of questions spring to mind.
1 I am assuming that the head was done by a garage. Can you not return to them and ask them to re-check their work?
2 If you find that the pump is not timed correctly, do you intend to try to correct it yourself, and are you confidant that you can do so?
I mean absolutely no offence at all in asking the questions. Your objective is to get the car running correctly again, and if the pump is out of time then the belt will have to be loosened to correct it. There is a danger of loseing the cam/crank timing unless everything is correctly locked up. This can, I think, on this engine lead to valve/piston damage.
As I said, 659fbe will know more.
Keep posting, there are more knowledgeable people on the forum, and they will help.
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Forgot to add, If the cam pulley is locked then the crank locking holes will"should" be lined up.
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The other thing that strike me with the manual is the air filter box is totally different on my engine. Instead of a flat box I have a cube shaped box which sits at the same level as the engine top cover in the upper right of the engine bay (when viewed standing in front of the car) Directly behind the engine (where the haynes manual shows the air filter), is an aluminium metal box with four aluminium tubes coming out of it connecting to the engine above the exhaust manifold.
Dont know if this helps or just confuses more.
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The other thing which strikes me with my engine is, it is quite a bit different to the haynes manual's picture in a few areas. The manual shows a flat airfilter box behind the engine. My engine has a cube shaped airbox in the upper right of the engine bay.
Where the flat airbox is shown in the manual, I have a aluminium metal box, which stands proud of the engine on a bracket, with four aluminium tubes coming out of it (looking much like an exhaust manifold in style) and going into the back of the engine where the actual manifold tubes connect.
Do I have a different engine?
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Thanks again for the reply. The head was done by my brother who is "so great" (in his mind anyway) that he didnt need to either read the manual or lock the timing, but felt putting a mark on the injection pump sprocket and cam sprocket would be enough to retime the engine, he also did not put the engine in TDC before removal. When the timing belt went back on, as it wasnt locked, he couldnt hold the cam sprocket in exactly the right position and it went back on (according to his marks) about one tooth out. I also cannot verify the injection pump sprocket is absolutely right.
As this is now out, the only way I know of making sure everything is lined up again correctly is by starting at TDC (unless there is an easier way).
One thing I have learnt from this nightmare is, he wont be doing any other work.
The pillar I was referring to is not the dip stick tube, it is not clear in the picture but is the pillar the ID plate is riveted to.
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OK, there is a lot of sorting out to do here. There are two different diesel engines fitted to the 106, the earlier 1.4 litre unit with an aluminium block, and the 1.5 (TUD5) with the iron block. The Haynes manual, typically, mixes these two up and uses illustrations from the 1.4, doubtless to save photographs which causes total confusion. There are significant differences between the two engines. Any aspect of poor or uninformed workmanship in this area will result in a broken engine. I've had a look at my TUD5. The flywheel locking hole is best located from below if you don't know where it is. Looking at the front of the engine from below, measure about 7" horizontally to the right as you look, from the top centre of the oil filter. There is a flange here which carries a large (3/4") and an adjacent small hole, both unused. Measure upwards and rearwards about 1.5" from here and you will see a 6 mm hole tucked right in the corner of the block flange. This is the timing hole, and being in the corner, you can't use a bolt to lock it, hence the stud. Above the timing hole is a large hex plug with an inner female hex, just like the sump plug. Read the section on the vernier timing adjustment in Haynes 1882 and see if you understand it. I'll willingly go through this for you, but I think you should have a careful look first and make sure you are comfortable with the issues involved - there are no margins for error. The timing belt is tensioned by rotating the eccentric idler anticlockwise - use a piece of domestic door handle square in the hole, making sure it engages fully with the inner square as well as the one you can see. Good luck.
659.
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I have just dropped the car off at a mechanics to have the car timed. After all the problems just trying to find the timing hole, let alone lock it, and the invaluable advice from the great people on here, i thought it for the best.
I am just hoping the timing is the problem and that having this done will solve the problems.
Many thanks again to everyone who has helped so far, my knowledge has increased if not my technical ability.
I will post the response to having the car timed, which should be within a couple of days.
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You have probably made a wise decision. Hopefully it won't cost an arm and a leg(except, perhaps your brothers!).
It sounds as if nothing has broken, and a simple re-set of the timing will sort it.
It will be worth asking him to cast an eye over the condition of the tensioners, water pump etc while he is at it. It may be additional cost, but will possibly save some grief later on.
Please let us know how you get on.
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I agree too - a wise decision. Make sure that all the work already done is satisfactory before running the engine, especially the tightening of the head bolts, whch ought to have been renewed. Use original PSA antifreeze and ensure that the cooling system is properly vented. In my experience, the tensioners are usually OK on this engine, but I would renew any water pump which has done over 100k miles - they're not expensive. A failed water pump = wrecked engine as it is rotated by the timing drive. I hope you have found a competent mechanic; these engines are wonderful but totally intolerant of poor workmanship. Let us know how you get on.
659.
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Hi
Found a reliable mechanic through my uncle, quite by chance. Dropped the car off Sunday night and picked it up Monday night. He spent a day on the car for £50. The timing has been set and the belt correctly tensioned, the car now runs perfectly. Better than I had hoped, I had given up on ever hearing the the engine run properly. The car has done 60,000 miles. During the course of the work it has had, new oil, new antifreeze, and as mentioned previously, a new timing belt was fitted.
Hopefully I will have some trouble free motoring.
Many thanks again to all who have replied and given your time and knowledge to help.
Best wishes, Martin
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Hi again,
One last thought, is it possible to fit a temperature gauge to the car, to hopefully spot any further problems and act, before its too late.
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Glad it's all sorted. My son had a 106 with the earlier 1340cc diesel, it cost peanuts for fuel and was very reliable.
Afraid I can't help with the temperature gauge, though.
Keep an eye on the coolant level and make sure that the overheating warning light bulb lights up with the ignition.
You had a difficult problem to solve for a first attempt.
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Agree with the above comments - the 1.5l iron block engine is better in every respect. At least PSA had the sense to ditch the aluminium engine quickly, unlike another manufacurer in the UK which recently went to the wall.
I wouldn't bother with the temperature gauge - it's difficult to do this neatly at the dashboard end, and the cylinder head fittings can be tricky. The heat release of this engine is amazingly low, hence its high efficiency. In this weather, the thermostat stays closed all the time, the heater matrix being sufficient to cool the engine, hence 65 mpg.
The really weak point which needs regular checking are the PSA radiators. The OE fitment (mine was an Ordonnez) are total rubbish, and only last a few years. GSF sell Behr replacements, which weigh more when empty, so might be stronger.
Leave the gauge (you might not see a problem anyway) and spend the money on cooling system basic bits and genuine antifreeze.
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I can recommend a 55% mix of OAT Antifreeze: no problems in our aluminium 106 in 12 years (touch wood!)
madf
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