Yes yes yes!
But are there any diesels that equal a petrol with regard to heater warm-up time? The last diesel I test drove was a 1.8 Citroen ZX and the heater warm-up time was atrocious. It seems obvious to me that if you get more mpg then there will be less fuel being burnt to heat up the cooling water.
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L\'escargot.
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Spot on. Quite normal for a diesel engined car to take longer to heat up. As you say, it's burning less fuel and the heat is efficiency loss.
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You can detect a resemblance of heat on my 306 within 30 seconds...it blows warm ish reasonably quickly.
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Yes yes yes! But are there any diesels that equal a petrol with regard to heater warm-up time? The last diesel I test drove was a 1.8 Citroen ZX and the heater warm-up time was atrocious. It seems obvious to me that if you get more mpg then there will be less fuel being burnt to heat up the cooling water. -- L\'escargot.
I don't think you ever drove a ZX with a 1.8 diesel engine. The only diesels ever fitted to the ZX were the 1.9 D and 1.9 TD.
Actually, the 1.9 TD in our Xantia warms up very quickly. The HDI is slower to warm up.
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I don't think you ever drove a ZX with a 1.8 diesel engine.
I stand corrected ~ it was a 1.9D. Like everything else, as you get older your memory doesn't work as good as it used to! I ran the assessment according to FMVSS 105 for windscreen defrosting (which is at idling) as per what car manufacturers do for the US market, except that the ambient temperature was about -5 degC instead of -40 degC. (Just a bit of useless information!)
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L\'escargot.
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I believe Subaru are looking into it.
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I believe Subaru are looking into it.
A diesel Boxer that is...
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I believe Subaru are looking into it.
Yes, indeed they have been; in conjunction with GM.
With that relationship in tatters though, who knows if the engine will be delayed or still born?
Some more info at www.itv-motoring.com/features/industry/2005/7000.a...p
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Just tested 6 cars in the price bracket / engine size you say peterb. I found the Honda the quietest, nut the X type, the A4 and the Saab were not far behind.
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Wouldn't a diesel boxer engine be virtually ever lasting?
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Why do you think this? Anything mechanical will wear out eventually.
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Why do you think this? Anything mechanical will wear out eventually.
In line diesel 4's can last for stupid mileages and with the fact boxer engines are by their design well balanced and (I believe) quite unstressed that is how it seems to me. Just an idle hypothesis.
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I take my point back. Channel4's latest road test of the IS220d is as follows:
"So while the IS diesel could afford to lose a little to the competition in terms of performance or even fuel economy, the one thing we'd all expect is that this would be the outright class leader when it comes to refinement.
The engine lets you know that it is a diesel
It isn't. Under ideal conditions - ie light throttle at a motorway cruise in top gear - it's fine, standing comparison with competitors while not necessarily besting them. But under load while accelerating from stop or negotiating a steep incline, this engine lets you know it's a diesel, with a booming roar and a little vibration through the pedals. Gently driven, it's not bad. But that's not the point - this is a Lexus and it should be head and shoulders above the competition."
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Thanks everyone for comments and suggestions.
Our thinking is to get a petrol engine as I'd rather pay more tax on a car I like than less on one I don't. I'd kind of hoped the IS220d would have been refined, but the C4 review confirms what I'd heard elsewhere.
The point on multi-cylinder is well made. I'be been spoiled by the smooth straight six in my IS200. So, where we've got to is:
Volvo S40 2.4/5 cyl SE - great engine, best equipment (leather etc) and excellent handling. Currently in pole position.
Audi A4 - great car but very firm ride and engine sounds rather boomy. However we've only driven the 1.8T and we'd want a 2.0T
X Type 2.2d - see first post above!
BMW 320i - rejected due to low rent interior, sparse equipment (rear arm rest is extra cost option!) and lousy dealer attitude
Honda Accord - too large
Still to try are the Subaru Legacy 2.0 and Saab 9-3 2.0t.
Will let the BR know what we decide.
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"The noise from the electric clock can be iritating in a Rolls Royce. "
I got driven to Dublin Airport by one of the Bank of Ireland's chauffeurs in a Lexus LS430. It was so quiet that the indicators sounded deafening!
Incidentally, the X-Type has a fantastic, old-fashioned indicator sound
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Peter,
Is there any reason why you're discounting the S60?
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I've just done 9K in a V70 D5 185....pure magic. Just love the growl and 6.8L/100 average fuel economy. Almost 600 miles on a tank! I guess a S60 would be alot cheaper to buy and give even better fuel economy? For me the diesel experience is a european one and should stay that way. Honda,Nissan and Toyota have jumped on the Turbo Diesel band-'wagen' and deserve our attention but, they've missed the boat when it comes to 5,6 and 8 cylinder diesels. Ok...Renault use an Izuzu sourced 6 Pot but that's about it.
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I tried the S60 4 years ago when I got the Lexus.
It's a fine car, although a little larger than we want. Also it now seems very slightly dated next to the S40 and IIRC doesn't handle quite as well.
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I agree with the S40 5 cyl, likely to be a great car. However the Lexus IS220d C4 tested will have been brand new so as per the X-Type 2.2d you drove is probably 10000 miles from it's best.
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It takes me 12-14 months to do 10k miles. I can't wait that long...
Also, the X-Type demo *wasn't* brand new. I didn't check the mileage but the salesman mentioned that they were replacing it soon so it must have done a few thou.
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Well, nice to see that we've moved on from four cylinder diesels! ;-)
S40 v S60 it depends what you want;
The Volvo five pots in all guises are fine engines (of the current range D5 185 and 2.5T are my favourites from experience), but to compare S40 and S60 for a moment:
The new S40 indeed has the edge in the handling dynamics; an excellent car that truly surprised me when I had a Hertz S40 2.4i rental in Sweden for a week. Riding on 16" rims with squidgy high profile tyres it still managed to have electric turn-in, high grip, lots of feel, and a wonderfully compliant ride. I could almost have been in my wife's 306 Sedan that I use as the benchmark! The S60 in comparison has huge grip, but is a little inert on turn in and is less compliant in all suspension/wheel size combinations. Even the 2004 steering revisions don't turn these characteristics in to class leading. Where the S60 scores however is the absence of road noise; in the new S40 and V50 this is more intrusive whereas the S60 is a wonderful, refined, express. The S40 was also quite nervous in a (strong and gusting) motorway crosswind.
Surprisingly, I found the new S40 (and V50) to be more spacious for back seat passengers than the S60 (which to me is still the world's best looking four door saloon by a country mile). Headroom in the S60 is restricted (I'm 5' 10" and my head pushes in to the roof) as is toe room for the centre passenger, and knee room. The S40/V50 have thinner, countoured, seats that help alleviate the latter and seem to avoid the toe room problem and have more head room.
The dashboard in both are paragons of excellence, so it comes down to style preferences. I love the wonderful floating console in the S40, but prefer the "big car" look and feel of the S60 dash. Note that the new S80 (Eighty) gets the floating dash, and from the spy photos it is very well done.
For NVH (Noise, vibration, and harshness), the S60 is the better bet. Not only less dominant road noise as already described, but much better engine isolation too. When starting the S40 from stone cold - especially with the automated high initial revs to help reduce emissions - in relative terms it felt intrusive. In driving too, at all speeds and throttle openings the engine was not as suppressed as in the S60. Of course though the five pot warble is still the cultured and pleasant sound that it always is. No four cylinder "boom" here.
When it comes to performance, I will admit to being a little disappointed by the S40 2.4i. I expected a rocket ship but didn't get one; it was far from slow, and overtaking was easy, but it never really seemed to "get going" and pin my head to the head rest like I would expect of a 2.4 litre engine in a small saloon. Sure, I'm spoiled by a tuned V70 2.4T with 254bhp/444NM torque, but on paper it has more power than the old turbocharged S40 2.0T so should have gone similarly well; without the torque though it isn't the grin inducing swift car that the latter was (my favourite of all variants, including T4, for the previous range). With variable cam timing and stacks of electronics to help, the power band was impressively wide and the engine nice and flexible but it was consequently flat in delivery; engine speed, rate of acceleration, and noise all seemed to increase at the same linear rate. No nice "whoooooooo here we go" that's typical of four valve engines starting to breathe properly (or my turbo boost curve going ballistic at 1800RPM!)
So, conclusions from my week? A smashing car that was great fun to drive, becoming a hoot to do so on Sweden's usually empty A and B roads; the handling composure and ride was that good. This base model was quite well equipped (though no concert hall sound system a la S60), and completely painless to live with. The S40 has smashing good looks and a well well planned interior, though my early model had a couple of small build issues that surprised me (rear window upper seal worked loose and came down stuck to the window and the rear light cluster contour did not exactly follow the body "shoulder"). Did I enjoy its company? Yes, very much so. Would I buy one? Love the looks, love the ride, love the handling, was surprised by the interior space, but I'd wait until I'd tried the T5 (that is also shared with the new Focus RS).
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I am surprised that Lexus would launch a diesel engine which is not refined. The fact that most of their bigger engines are the quietest on the planet, and they took ages to develop a quiet diesel, should lead to a very quiet diesel.
Perhaps Cheddar is right and you'd have to drive a new car which has done a 1000 miles or so for the engine to loosen up?
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Two things: -
1. If the Accord and S60 are too big, so will the Subaru Legacy be.
2. If you are only doing 5k-10k miles per annum a diesel is a waste of money. You are far better off getting a larger discount on the petrol model you want.
Lets say in any of the cars you are looking at you do 8,000miles pa. In diesel at 40mpg or petrol at 22mpg. Fuel is 88ppl (£4ppg) petrol and 93ppl (£4.23) diesel.
Diesel will cost you £846pa and petrol £1455pa. A diesel saving of £608. But servicing will cost about £150pa more and the petrol will cost at least £1,500 less to buy with discount.
I'll go with the Subaru......
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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The reason for going diesel would have been lower company car tax (based on carbon emissions and therefore similar to fuel economy).
The S40 T5 sounds great but would cost a bit more than I want to spend. If I was going to do that, I'd get an IS250.
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Would I buy one? Love the looks, love the ride, love the handling, was surprised by the interior space, but I'd wait until I'd tried the T5 (that is also shared with the new Focus RS).
It is the Focus ST, re the 5 cyl turbo, although similar bhp/nm figures it is tuned for more midrange punch in the Focus and is apparently more vocal with a charaterful sound track where as it is supposed to be more muted in the T5.
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Yes, thanks; I was even looking at a picture of it in a TopGear supplement on my desk and still typed RS!
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I wonder why tickover noise should be more important than noise when travelling? I find a lot of petrol engines suffer from exhaust boom at speed, something that doesn't occur with our C5 2.2 HDI.
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"I wonder why tickover noise should be more important than noise when travelling?"
That's a good question - I've been pondering why this bothers us so much. All I could come up with were:
1. we live in North London and therefore spend quite a lot of time at tickover!
2. it just does! - we are both quite sensitive to noise (perhaps because we have no kids?) and when I hear that clatter-clatter-clatter it does something really unpleasant to my psyche!
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Unless you spend a lot of time standing on the pavement listening to the engine when cold, I'd be surprised if you described the better diesels as clattering. More like muttering.... BTW, have you driven any yet?
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I must say that the Mondeo Tdci I'm hiring is pretty quiet for a diesel. I am impressed!
However, it's winter time so the windows are all closed, different driving experience in the summer.
I put the window down the other day as I was parking up, and the clatter was loud as I was pressing the gas pedal. The insulation must be pretty decent then.
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"I wonder why tickover noise should be more important than noise when travelling?" That's a good question - I've been pondering why this bothers us so much. All I could come up with were: 1. we live in North London and therefore spend quite a lot of time at tickover! 2. it just does! - we are both quite sensitive to noise (perhaps because we have no kids?) and when I hear that clatter-clatter-clatter it does something really unpleasant to my psyche!
With an engine like the HDI, it isn't something that sounds intrusive.
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I must be the only person that likes the sound my HDi makes when I floor it...clattery, yes. But it sounds purposeful. A bit more rough 'n' ready than a whiney petrol engine. (Obviously I'm talking about modern, refined, 'shopping trolley' engines)
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"More like muttering.... BTW, have you driven any yet?"
Yes - X Type 2.2d - loved everything about it except the terrible din INSIDE the car on tickover.
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So thats the Ford eliminated....Try the S60 5 cylinder: one of the better ones.
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If the Ford / Jag diesel is two noisy on idle then no 4cyl diesel will do, if the S60 is too big a 6cyl 330d might be worthy though it has an urgent feel on idle, yes 6 cyl refinement though with that urgent diesel 'hunting' feeling on idle where as IMO the TDCi and DCi's idle in a more relaxed petrol like way. Jag S-type 2.7d, that would fit the bill though is it 1/ too expensive and 2/ too big?
As has been said for 10k miles a year a petrol is probably the best bet and for £20 - 25k or so there is a great choice of petrol sound tracks.
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"... for 10k miles a year a petrol is probably the best bet"
That's where we've got to. I suspect the 5 cyl 2.4 Volvo will win out. I agree with whoever said that it's not a rocket ship, but it has more low down pull than the Lexus so I'm pretty happy with that.
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