The thread about driving to Sheffield reminded me how the rush hour is a completely man-made, or even society made invention. Every day millions of people hit the roads at exactly the same time simply because convention dictates that we all work nine to five. Given that the school run is in full swing between 8 and 9 in the morning it seems crazy to try to get to work before then. Is it time we became a more flexible (even 24 hour) society?
So, who here could or would do the following if their employer allowed it?
(1) Work different hours - ie 4am-1pm or 3pm-midnight?
(2) Work a different week - for example work weekends and take Tuesday and Wednesday off - assuming you had some sort of say in the days you took so you could arrange the same days as your partner?
(3) Work from home? (I expect some people here do that already)
And as a final thought... why do companies refuse to move out of London and into smaller towns? What does a company have to gain from being in central London and Manchester other than employees who have a hell of a commute every day?
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
|
1. Need to do my job during daylight hours and when people are available to let me into a property, but in summer would happily work 7am - 7/8pm if I could have the equivalent time off elsewhere in the week. Doesn't always work like that though.
2. No, I want to work when the children are in school and be home when they are.
3. Could do, but need a headquarters facility for the firm, so might as well work there, it's only three miles from home and not in the city centre. I do not understand surveying firms who operate from the city centre, it adds at least one hour onto the working day, just walking to/from the car and getting into/out of the city centre, compared to my office where the car is outside and I can be on a arterial route within 10 seconds.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
|
I use to commute into Preston daily for nearly 30 years and the morning and evening rush hour traffic (I came in from a southerly direction) just got worse and worse over the years.
Yet during every school half-term or summer six week break traffic jams became virtually non-existant....:-)
Yet still no one has learned the lesson.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
|
Yet during every school half-term or summer six week break traffic jams became virtually non-existant....:-)
Funny that -- I live & work in a rural location and have noticed the very same thing! I wonder what that tells us?
|
I travel 55 miles between the outskirts of Lincoln to Coalville in Leicestershire between 07:00 and 08:00 and go nowhere near a city centre, but still the traffic runs much better during the holidays.
Wonder what that tells us??
|
|
And back home between 17:00 and 18:00
|
|
|
|
....er that people use their cars to drop off their children at school? Not quite sure I understand the point of this thread.
|
....er that people use their cars to drop off their children at school?
People are also more likely to go on holiday during the school breaks. So more than just school run cars are lost from the rush hour.
Me, I go to work during school hours for two reasons. First, I like to see the little patentlies from time to time. Nice to know where the money's going, and all that. Second, if I didn't have the excuse of going to work, I'd have to do the school run. And then I'd have to drive a 4x4. ;-)
|
|
|
Not quite sure I understand the point of this thread.
I'm trying to gauge the extent to which the rush hour is man's own doing (ie choosing to travel at 8am and 6pm despite other options) against how much it's down to employers siting themselves inconveniently and denying flexitime, culture stating that the weekend is sacred and so on.
It strikes me that our road network is more than capable of handling all us motorists, except we all insist on getting in our cars at exactly the same time. Am I being idealistic in saying that the rush hour could be eradicated? What reasons are there for not working overnight etc? Now I'm finding out.
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
|
This is what HMG is trying to do with road pricing.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
|
Nah. That's different. They just want to get the poor off the road.
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
|
|
Nah. They've just found something else to tax. After all, if we had a choice do you really think we'd sit in a queue of traffic? Duh....
|
|
|
Widespread take up of fast broadband services and developments in voice over internet technologies will make it easier for office workers to base themselves at home. The trouble is, there is no real incentive for the employer to offer this to its staff. I can't see HMG offering tax breaks etc when they are after revenue from fuel duty and road pricing.
Ed.
|
|
|
|
|
>>Not quite sure I understand the point of this thread.>>
E34kid {P} outlined his argument quite clearly I thought in his opening remarks.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
|
|
Four day working weeks comprising 4 x 10 hour days instead of 5 x 8 hour days would reduce rush hour journeys by 20%.
|
Employers seem to be back in the days of dark satanic mills over this subject. Many of us have the technology to work at home or a combination of workplace/homeworking tailored to the individual,but all of the 9 firms I've worked for over the years in various contracts would not budge from the 9 to 5 or variants of. It seems to be a cultural issue, I think there's a long way to go yet. At the moment I waste a good 10 hours a week commuting, when I could just switch on the PC and be up and running in 2 mins. Firms must start measuring performance by output rather than prescence in the office!
Baz
|
Employers seem to be back in the days of dark satanic mills over this subject. Many of us have the technology to work at home or a combination of workplace/homeworking tailored to the individual,but all of the 9 firms I've worked for over the years in various contracts would not budge from the 9 to 5 or variants of. It seems to be a cultural issue, I think there's a long way to go yet. At the moment I waste a good 10 hours a week commuting, when I could just switch on the PC and be up and running in 2 mins. Firms must start measuring performance by output rather than prescence in the office! Baz
>>
My company which is a sales-orientated technology company, has extensive homeworking as we operate in a somewhat niche technology area with many key people who will not or cannot (for financial reasons) relocate to the South East. However I will say there is a certain amount of negative culture surrounding homeworking in the sense that if you're at home you are not working etc etc.
What needs to be done is for the Government to introduce some legislation to force companies to allow people to home-work where by job specification it is reasonable to do so.
The State of California did this years ago to alleviate congestion in the Greater Los-Angeles area. I'm not saying it was their saviour but it would certainly be a step in the right direction.
|
|
|
|
Four day working weeks comprising 4 x 10 hour days instead of 5 x 8 hour days would reduce rush hour journeys by 20%.
And fill the roads with people who are absolutely knackered, having spent six hours playing solitaire instead of only four.
|
|
When I worked over the summer in a theatre we had the hours 10-6. Missed the rush hour in the morning, less so in the evening unless I stayed a little later.
|
The answer is flexibility, as no one idea will suit everyone. Thankfully my employer is enlightened, so I am at my desk by 8:15 each day after dropping the kids off at the pre school club, and can finish at 4ish most days if I don't take too long for lunch. I don't miss the rush completely, but it is certainly better than at 9 or 5.
My colleagues do it the other way round (10 til 6) and most people seem happy.
|
I drive to my office (60 miles) at 6:05, arriving at 7:05 - I rarely hit any traffic. I leave the office at 4:30, arriving home at about 5:45. I have always cleared this working pattern with various bosses.
I also work from home as far as is possible. I used to travel to a nearby office until I realised that the extra 40 mins a day was wasted time.
So, all in all, I am able to do my bit in preventing rush-hour congestion. The important point, though, is that I have the option. Shop workers, etc, could not possibly do what I do. There will always be something of a rush hour if only for this reason.
V
|
|
|
|
NSAR said
....er that people use their cars to drop off their children at school? Not quite sure I understand the point of this thread.
So why contribute? Why not sit back, see how it develops and join in when you do see the point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Has anyone noticed that the rush hour is getting earlier? In the mornings it used to be from 8 till 9 (roughly), but now it is from 7 till 8. In the evening it starts as early as 3pm and lasts until 5.30ish. Does this mean that we are all starting to work earlier shifts!!! I noticed this yesterday in particular as I left Exeter at 2ish thinking I would have a trouble free drive back to Southampton, But I got hit with traffic around the north of Poole and it was only 4pm, It did not look like the school traffic either.
|
I noticed this yesterday in particular as I left Exeter at2ish thinking I would have a trouble free drive back to Southampton, But I got hit with traffic around the north of Poole and it was only 4pm, It did not look like the school traffic either.
There is an awful lot of commercial traffic around the A31/A35 at that time of day as reps galore return to their bases in Southampton/Fareham/Portsmouth from wherever they've been for the afternoon. It's my neck of the woods and I avoid the A31 between 4:00 and 6:00pm if I can.
|
It's my neck of the woods and I avoid the A31 between 4:00 and 6:00pm if I can.
I would have done, Some of the hills are not friendly to 44t of artic, but as they have closed the A303, which was my preferred route, I unfortunatly had little choice. Nice scenery though which made for a more enjoyable drive.
|
|
You can't have total flexibility for everyone. None of us work in a bubble where we don't need to talk or interact with other people. If I decided to start doing 1am until 9am I'd end up doing very little unless plenty of those people I do deal with were willing to work similar hours. I currently work flexi hours. If I'm in by 7.30 am (the earliest i can start) and leaving at 4pm (the earliest i can finish) I can guarantee I won't have a call until about 8.30-9am and I can expect voicemails to be left between 4 and 6, but not much later. This actually increases workload as my first job is to call all the voicemail contacts, but don't do so until 9am as this is when most of my day to day clients open their reception.
|
|
daveyjp is spot on. I would love to work flexible hours and avoid all the traffic etc. Unfortunately my customers don't.
|
|
|
|
Has anyone noticed that the rush hour is getting earlier? In the mornings it used to be from 8 till 9 (roughly), but now it is from 7 till 8. In the evening it starts as early as 3pm and lasts until 5.30ish. Does this mean that we are all starting to work earlier shifts!!! I noticed this yesterday in particular as I left Exeter at 2ish thinking I would have a trouble free drive back to Southampton, But I got hit with traffic around the north of Poole and it was only 4pm, It did not look like the school traffic either.
Let me get this right Exeter to Poole in 2 hours in a 44T Arctic, how did you manage to do that keeping within the speed limit? especially as the A303 is being reworked and HGV's are being forced via a M5, A358 detour
|
IIRC, BP at Sunbury supplies each worker with a laptop and encourages home work were possible. They also split the workforce into two groups, and give them alternate Fridays off to work from home. Allows people to visit dentists or get deliveries to home or have odd jobs done - maybe even get a head start for those weekend trips ;o) Probably cuts down on "sick" days
With a work force the size of that at Sunbury it also makes a big dent in the local traffic situation. Cuts car journeys by 10% at a stroke.
Piglet
|
Probably cuts down on "sick" daysWith a work force the size of that at Sunbury it also makes a big dent in the local traffic situation. Cuts car journeys by 10% at a stroke.
This is very true, there are many days throughout the year when you may have taken the day off due to feeling unwell if you had to comute to an office, whereas you can still do a minimum workload at home and not waste an entire day off sick.
|
|
|
|
Let me get this right Exeter to Poole in 2 hours in a 44T Arctic, how did you manage to do that keeping within the speed limit? especially as the A303 is being reworked and HGV's are being forced via a M5, A358 detour
Not too difficult, It only takes just under 3 hours from Exeter to Southampton, and that is keeping to the speed limits.
How long do you think it should take?
|
How long do you think it should take?
If it takes just under 3 how come you did it in 2?
|
|
|
84 miles 1hour 40 minutes
|
84 miles 1hour 40 minutes
Might be 84 mile direct route, but as HGV's are being routed via M5, Junction 25 then down the A358 ( Roadworks on the A303 @ Devon border)it comes out at 104.5 miles ( AA Autoroute).
Assuming its then A303,to Yeovil,thru' Yeovil( nightmare),A37 to Dorchester then A35 to Poole, roads which have a lot of single carrage ways stretches i.e 40 MPH max, or 50 MPH Max( Dual carrage ways), i would say that unless you are breaking the limit there is no way you could do Exeter to Poole in 2 hours in a HGV.
i.e
Exeter-M5 J25 32 Miles @56Mph= 35Min
M5 J25-Ilminster 10 Miles@40MPH=15 Min
Ilm-Yeovil 17Miles @40MPH=20 Min
Yvl-Dorch 20Miles@40MPH=30Min
Dorch-Poole 24Mile@40MPH=36Min
Sum total 156 minutes or 2 hour 36mins not allowing for hold ups getting thru Yeovil,traffic lights,etc
|
|
There is a far simpler way. From Southampton > M27 to A31 to A35 to A30 at Honiton then into Exeter. You only get routed if you go onto the A303, But as I was aware of the roadworks I did not and took the "Low Road". Although alot of the roads have to be travelled at 40mph it is still quicker (and prettier). Oh and it was the A31 just north of Poole I was on about so in fact 8 miles or so to the north.
|
|
|
Erm... what's your point? You think TruckersUnite was doing 85 in his HGV? Presumably he has a 56 limiter and a tachograph like any other haulier. If he can get there faster than you can then good on him for knowing the roads and the right routes to take.
Anyway... we're straying from the subject a bit. Now I don't expect everyone to avoid the rush hour here, and it's been shown that certain people are unable or unwilling to work odd hours for good reason. But there are a number of us who need not work 9-5 Mon-Fri if our employers were a bit more flexible. I'm guessing that we could make life a lot easier for people who need to travel in the rush hour by not doing so ourselves if we don't need to. Ultimately, it's my employer's (you must be in the office between 10 and 4) stance and my own convention that keeps me travelling to work during the usual times.
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
|
|
I actually find the rush hour thing quite amusing - I actually work from home 4 days a week and now only drive a truck one day a week, It is an eye opener looking out of our study window at about 8 and watching all the cars leave the close, then about 1/2 an hour later at least 50% of them return (minus the children), Most of our rush hour traffic on loacl roads comes from the school runs.
|
|
|
Erm... what's your point? You think TruckersUnite was doing 85 in his HGV? Presumably he has a 56 limiter and a tachograph like any other haulier. If he can get there faster than you can then good on him for knowing the roads and the right routes to take.
My point was that is imposibble to do Exeter to Poole via Taunton in 2 hours keeping to the Limits. As Truckersunite took a different route his timing is intirely possible, and i appologise for inferring that he must have been speeding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
"The thread about driving to Sheffield reminded me how the rush hour is a completely man-made, or even society made invention. Every day millions of people hit the roads at exactly the same time simply because convention dictates that we all work nine to five. "
You're right. If you selfish lot changed your working hours, I'd be able to get to work much quicker.
Seriously though, this is the legacy of the changes to society made by Norman 'On yer bike" Tebbit and his mates. We have a much more dynamic society, and we change jobs more often. So family members might work in widely separated places. Most of can't stagger working hours, so we need to interact with others. And our modern society means that we have specialist skills and must travel a long way to find a suitable employer.
I suppose we could all live in yurts and manage yak herds. I'll leave that lark to Swampy and his custard pie throwing brethren.
Leif
|
Looking at the amount of time that some of you spend travelling to work and thinking of how much it must cost surely some of you have considered getting a job close to home? It might not pay as much but you would have the benefits of less travelling time and less cost. I know that many people cannot do it but the benefits are huge for those who can.
This is where living and working in a small town pays off. I am two miles from my work and can walk if I wish. I usually take the car so that I can go home at lunch time. It is great getting out the place. I fill the tank about every three weeks or so.
|
|
|
|
This is quite an interesting thread which seems to reveal that the 9-5 is here to stay with little chance of being altered, even though there are clearly some simple solutions to help the situation we're in, like working from home.
Staying with the notion that its not going away, we should probably turn to the idea that seems to have been neglected, which is how we all go to work. Yeah, I can hear the moans already 'cos you know where I?m going with this one.
The whole reason we have so much trouble at rush hour is because there are a lot of cars trying to go into an ever decreasing amount of space. So, theoretically, we need either fewer cars or more space (already ruling out that fewer cars by staggering peoples starting times is impossible). Well, the latter would be difficult, so the former seems more appropriate.
So, here we go....
If people would try and use public transport where they can, we would probably find that roads would start to become less crowded, because lets face it, 50 people on a bus take up considerably less space than 50 cars do. (as would trains/metro) I know of loads of people who?s commute could be done by public transport in similar time and less cost but chose to go by car.
By now, there are loads of you who are about to reply with one of the following:
- I need to travel 200 miles a day to commute to work
- I have clients to visit
- My car is part of my work
- Public transport doesn't go anywhere near my place or work
(so on and so forth)
Well don't bother saying it. I'm not saying everyone must abandon their cars in favor of the public transport. However, those who can use it without any inconveniencing themselves too much should. It would make the lives of those who have no other option, a little bit easier. There is probably a fair amount of people could, and every little helps. I do it. The bus is far cheaper and less stressful than driving, and doesn?t take much longer.
In the illusive ideal world, it makes sense, but I understand that this isn?t everyone?s cup of tea, as it doesn?t get rid of those who say:
- I have a car so I have a right to use wherever, and whenever I want (which is true)
- I don?t like that ?tist tist tist? of a few mp3 players (if you can?t beat ?em join ?em)or having to ?endure? someone else?s phone conversation.
- I?m too inflexible, I need to be in a space with 100% filtered air which is kept at precisely 20C
- I?m too upper-class for that.
Now, where?s my coat?..
|
I have 2 options to get to work.
(1) Walk a few minutes to the station, hop on a tube, get off at Hammersmith and stroll another few minutes into the office. Cost £2.20 a day. Journey time 35 mintes each way.
(2) Get in my car. Sit in traffic in the school run though Ealing, Acton, Chiswick and Hammersmith, struggle to find a parking space and pay about £8 a day for the privilige. Plus petrol, wear and tear and so on. Cost? Probably £10 a day. Don't know... never tried it. Probably in excess of an hour each way too.
I go with option 1.
But that's half the story. Have you tried using public transport in the rush hour? It ain't any prettier than driving. Trains are rammed full of sweaty commuters, irritated because all the trains are rammed full of sweaty commuters. Stations look like everyone just got out of an Elvis comeback concert with Hendrix on guitar - people are everywhere. If X percent of drivers switched to public transport it'd just grind to a halt. I used to commute from Reading to London by train and I considered myself lucky if I actually got on the train, nevermind getting a seat. The public transport network is no less stretched than the road network *in the rush hour*
As far as I can see there is no way out of this other than to get rid of the concept of a rush hour altogether. This doesn't mean no-one travel in the rush hour. It just means, those that could conveniently travel at other times or work from home should endeavour to do so.
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
|
|
I think you are quite right E34Kid, We will never get rid of rush hour, and as for public transport, well that thing is the biggest joke going. For those of us who have never worked what would be called normal hours it is not a viable option, Try getting a bus from a village at 3am!!!!!!! Or when I used to work in east london and commute from Reading, it would have taken most of the day on a train just travelling, never mind having the time to actually do some work. Unfortunatly our labour market is now far more mobile which means the best people for a job can do that job without having to live within 2 miles of their work - I think it is called progress........
|
|
I used to try and avoid the worst of it in the morning by arriving 10 to 15 minutes later, which made a big difference, and then making up the lost time with a reduced lunch break. My boss wouldn't accept it though, as his boss used to complain about it. It didn't make any difference to my ability to my job. However, they were quite happy to allow the smokers in the office to take several fag breaks per day, of at least 10 minutes each time.
|
A lot of people do use public transport, especially in large cities such as London. But even when it is convenient, it isn't up to the job. A colleague tried commuting by train from Twyford to Slough. It was expensive, and often the train was late. Trains were infrequent. Sometimes it was cancelled, and the next train was an hour later. I travelled by train, from Hayes to Henley, fora few months, and found it inconvenient, often dirty, crowded, unreliable, and expensive. Who wants to be in a carriage with screaming teenagers, rubbish on the floor, etc. Oh yes and railway staff are sometimes rude, electronic displays are sometimes wrong (I got on the wrong train at Southampton for this reason causing a 2 hour extension to the journey) and so on.
The fact is that even with traffic jams, cars are the most effective and pleasant solution to the problem.
The suggestion that people can take a small pay cut and live nearer home is often unrealistic. The option is often to take a huge pay cut and change industry, or commute. People who were laid off from my last client (a telecoms company) got jobs miles away. In one case he worked over 70 miles away, and camped in a field during the week. In another case he rented a flat in the week. Maybe that is the way to reduce traffic?
One valid option is car sharing. The increases in fuel costs might have the beneficial side effect of increasing car sharing.
Leif
|
There are some valid points being raised, I must admit that, and agree that car sharing is a good idea, providing you all start and finish at the same time, all the time. Nothing worse than your lift home having to leave without you!
Although I use public transport all the time (can't believe I?ve just admitted that) I think the train is the poorest out there. I've used it on odd occasions and found it to be slow and it doesn't represent good value at all. However, the Scottish rail network seems to provide a substantially better service at a better price.
Since the train has been mentioned often since my last post, I'm assuming it was used for relatively large distances? What about those people who only commute shorter distances like me (about 20 miles). The chances are, all major towns are linked by a bus network to all other major settlements and cities around about. IMHO, its short runs like this (or perhaps shorter) including the school run (biggest cause of traffic if you ask me) which cause problems.
Cars aren?t really the problem *'inappropriate' use of them however, probably is.
* A difficult term to define, I know. But in this instance I mean those that use the car to go 1 mile up the road to drop the kids off (only to return 10 minutes later) or to go to work, when they could have walked it, or taken a bus. As someone admitted earlier, when the kids are off, how much less traffic is there?
I also acknowledge, this doesn?t get away from the fact PT is just as busy in the morning and thus not much more pleasant, but in an ideal world?.
|
FWIW Twyford to Slough is about 15 miles by road, and Hayes to Henley is 25 miles by road, but with one change by rail.
Leif
|
I used to do Twyford to Ealing. Shocking - and two and a half grand a year back in 1999 including parking at Twyford Station. It zapped my will to live for a year. I never intend to try it again.
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
|
Here's one potential solution: two wheels- bicycles, scooters & motorbikes.
Discuss.
Alex.
--
Dr Alex Mears
Seat Leon Cupra
If you are in a hole stop digging...unless
you are a miner.
|
Discuss.
In a word, Cambridge.
;-)
|
|
