"It happened partly because the majority of British people ceased to be patriotic"
Hmm let me see.
It happened because the majority of the british public got fed up with buying overpriced badly made rubbish, and disgusted by constant scenes of red robbo and his mates walking out on yet another strike over nothing.
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It happened because the majority of the british public got fed up with buying overpriced badly made rubbish, and disgusted by constant scenes of red robbo and his mates walking out on yet another strike over nothing.
RF,
I imagine that you have never worked for a company that would treat you like dirt unless you had the backing of an effective trade union. I have.
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L\'escargot.
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i have to agree with so many of the thoughts here, but strikes were not just some "red robbos" choosing to strike. the troubles were far higher up than the skilled workers on the floor, horrific mis-management led to the decline of most of our industry, but hey we are all citizens of the earth, not just this little island!! and as far as we know we are on topof the game!!!!!!!!!!
(sp30)>>>force without the aid of judgement will collapse through its own mass.<<<
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The only thing the union was effective in was shipping the production and hence the jobs of its members out of the uk.
The unions in the car industry cared not one jot about their members. Other agendas were at work.
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The only thing the union was effective in was shipping the production and hence the jobs of its members out of the uk. The unions in the car industry cared not one jot about their members. Other agendas were at work.
No offence intended, but I suspect you have little experience of unions in car plants. Despite what you may have read in the press, UK car workers have never been particularly well paid by international standards and it is a hard and demanding job, believe me. Management was often so bad and so crass that the workforce was pushed into militancy.
Having visited German car plants I can tell you that they are far more highly unionised than UK plants ever were. Working conditions are also much better (a beer vending machine on the BMW line and superb food in the canteen) and pay is higher. Stangely they are also quite productive and industrial action infrequent.
People are also often quite ignorant of how small a proportion of the cost of a car is accounted for by assembly labour. For lower volume cars, in particular, the cost of marketing (per vehicle sold) is often higher than the cost of assembly..
Incidentally, Ford and GM eventually go almost every concession that they asked for out of their British workforces. That hasn't stopped them moving a lot of production out of the UK and into Europe, where costs are supposedly higher.
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"Having visited German car plants I can tell you that they are far more highly unionised than UK plants ever were. Working conditions are also much better..."
And shortly to be on the dole.......... Ask Bosch, ask Black and Decker and yes ask wolkswagen where the jobs have a: gone and are b: going, due to?
For gods sake get out of 19th century thinking, and reveling in the glories of industrial archeology....
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"Having visited German car plants I can tell you that they are far more highly unionised than UK plants ever were. Working conditions are also much better..." And shortly to be on the dole.......... Ask Bosch, ask Black and Decker and yes ask wolkswagen where the jobs have a: gone and are b: going, due to?
Indeed, DaimlerChrysler announced yesterday that they are to cut 8,500 jobs in Germany. The move will cost 950 Million Euro or roughly £75,000 per employee.
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"Having visited German car plants I can tell you that they are far more highly unionised than UK plants ever were. Working conditions are also much better..." And shortly to be on the dole.......... Ask Bosch, ask Black and Decker and yes ask wolkswagen where the jobs have a: gone and are b: going, due to?
Like many other British engineers I now spend a good proportion of my working life in Germany (where I often post on here from). Demand for engineers is still strong and pay is better than in the UK. I have worked for every German car manufacturer (in Germany) apart from Porsche - I do know what I am talking about.
I'm sorry, but you really have no idea what you are talking about. Don't believe all that you read in the UK press, a lot of it borders on 'Schadenfreude'. The idea that the Germans can learn anything from Britain's economic management is laughable. The UK has a lousy and underfunded educational system, clapped out transportation and a myriad of 'schemes' to make unemployment look low.
German industrial performance is still pretty strong - exports have risen sharply just lately - mainly because the oil exporting countries have been spending their extra petrodollars on German goods.
German companies have cut some jobs in engineering - but manufacturing engineering employment is much much higher than in the UK. There is some outsourcing to Eastern Europe - but crucially most of it to plants that are actually German owned and managed. Moreover, some companies have recently been 'insourcing' following quality problems with outsource suppliers.
Sure, the German economy is suffering stresses and strains, its a fast changing world and they have inherited a lot of clapped out industry in the East. But they have an economy built on a formidable education system, excellent technical training, continuous innovation and improvement and a real commitment to manufacturing from local and national government.
What proportion of the UK populace aspire to owning a German car, or kitchen, or any other product that is 'Made in Germany'? A fair number I would suggest. Sure they make mistakes, and quality can go up and down, but they learn and they make changes and fix things.
The German economy will still be going strong after the British economy (built on housing boom and debt) is in tatters - and that won't be as far into the future as you might think. What exactly do we DO in the UK now, apart from retailing? You can't have an economy built around the housing market and Tesco.
For gods sake get out of 19th century thinking, and reveling in the glories of industrial archeology....
Sorry, but that is just an asinine statement.
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Having also worked in Germany, I entirely agree with all this. The burden of reforming the East has been very heavy, but Germans still invest in training and an economy built around more than customer services.
It's always good to read posts based on real experience and expertise, whether I agree or not...
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"Sorry, but that is just an asinine statement"
only for somone who can't see beyond it....
British engineers and engineering (in the last 75 years) have only been as good, no better than the rest of the world. Its the "we have the best engineers" train of thought that led to the downfall of British engineering and arogance it had a god given right to survive while designing garbage.
Look at the economics. Mass production requires low cost, Low cost mean less expensive workers. The German economy CAN NOT and WILL NOT survive on its cradle to grave high benefit structure.
Why did VW open plants outside of Germany? Hmmm?
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It happened partly because the majority of British people ceased to be patriotic and no longer insisted on buying British cars.
Of course there's an argument that's exactly the opposite.
If we hadn't started off buying what was clearly sub-standard tat purely because it was British, then the car makers wouldn't have got so blase and expected us to continue buying the tat long after we stopped. If they'd realised earlier that their products perhaps needed to be of comparable quality to others, then their industry could have been saved.
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Few people knew what was coming, but my wife's uncle was one of the first. He had a skilled position at Pressed Steel, and when we went to Oxford to see him in her first Toyota she was a bit worried about what he might say. What he actually said, after crawling over and around and inside for a good hour, was he feared the ball was up on the slates; they just did not have the plant or the people at all levels to match the quality of structure (engines and things were not his line) or the finish.
Which includes everything blamed above, I suppose.
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Well, I'm getting a bit old and snaggle-toothed now, but I've been into plenty of automotive companies over the years. It is very easy to trot out the old chestnuts about troublesome unions and idle workers.
I very much believe the union problems of the past were a reaction to the horrific management of the time. In fact, I'm quite certain that on occasion the management actually incited industrial trouble to cover their own bungles.
I remember going into BL (as was) many years ago to install some tooling. The working conditions were an absolute disgrace and the guys on the line were spoken to appallingly. The senior management treated the place like a gentlemen's club and there were directors in the 'Golden Trough' (the director's restaurant) at 10am swigging back the booze (I know because I was taken in there as a guest and took full advantage!).
A lot of the failure was also to do with poor design (often simply not employing enough engineers and not giving them enough time or resources to do the job).
A lot of the smaller privately-owned companies have been systematically raped by their owners and shareholders, with no investment for years.
Not so long ago I did some consultancy work for a midlands company that makes springs (for car door locks, electrical contacts and the like). The factory was unbelievable - like something out of Dickens. There were rows of guys sitting on three-legged stools bending springs using old fly-presses. Their most modern bit of kit was an early post-war German-made spring forming machine! The company hadn't had any investment for decades. The MD sat in a smart office and had a Merc SL500 outside.
Britain has produced some of the finest engineers and designers that the world has ever seen. They have been cruelly let down by a political and economic establishment that is not interested in industry but prefers to reward property developers and gentleman farmers, and taxes earned income at a higher rate than unearned income.
I guess when you're trying to build a land fit for estate agents a few ex-car workers are obliged to sleep under bridges...
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In reply to Aprilia:-
well said my friend, i said somthing like that earlier, but you hit the nail on the head.
(sp30)>>>force without the aid of judgement will collapse through its own mass.<<<
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The company hadn't had any investment for decades. The MD sat in a smart office and had a Merc SL500 outside.
A sure sign of failing leadership and management is when those in senior positions resort to blaming all their troubles and shortcomings on those people they were charged with leading.
Despite the only too apparent failure of this approach, it is of note that today, as levels of UK industrial activity and employment continue to fall, many of those in the same management positions still cling desperately to such transparent excuses.
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i fully agree with renault-family. keeping it to motoring:
the great german engineering story - look at today's news;
news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_4288000/...m
Carmaker DaimlerChrysler has confirmed plans to cut more than 8,500 German jobs at its troubled Mercedes division, many more than originally expected.
i am not a supporter of labour, but the following from tony blair's speech of two days ago sums it up very well.
politics.guardian.co.uk/labour2005/story/0,16394,1...e
This is a country today that increasingly sets the standard: not for us the malaise of France or the angst of Germany. It's a national pastime to run ourselves down, so occasionally it's worth saying: Britain is a great country and we are proud of it.
.....
I hear people say we have to stop and debate globalisation. You might as well debate whether autumn should follow summer. They're not debating it in China and India. They are seizing its possibilities, in a way that will transform their lives and ours. Yes, both nations still have millions living in poverty. But they are on the move. Or look at Vietnam or Thailand. Then wait for the South Americans, and in time, with our help, the Africans.
All these nations have labour costs a fraction of ours. All can import the technology. All of them will attract capital as it moves, trillions of dollars of it, double what was available even 10 years ago, to find the best return. The character of this changing world is indifferent to tradition. Unforgiving of frailty. No respecter of past reputations. It has no custom and practice.
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the following bit of the blair speech got cut off above:
It is replete with opportunities, but they only go to those swift to adapt, slow to complain, open, willing and able to change. Unless we "own" the future, unless our values are matched by a completely honest understanding of the reality now upon us and the next about to hit us, we will fail. And then the values we believe in become idle sentiments ripe for disillusion and disappointment.
In the era of rapid globalisation, there is no mystery about what works: an open, liberal economy, prepared constantly to change to remain competitive. The new world rewards those who are open to it. Foreign investment improves our economy.
....
But there is a lesson here, too. The temptation is to use government to try to protect ourselves against the onslaught of globalisation by shutting it out - to think we protect a workforce by regulation, a company by government subsidy, an industry by tariffs. It doesn't work today.
Because the dam holding back the global economy burst years ago. The competition can't be shut out; it can only be beaten. And the greatest error progressive politics can make is to think that somehow this more open and liberal world makes our values redundant, that the choice is either to cling onto the European social model of the past or be helpless, swept along by the flow.
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If only he practiced what he preaches.
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When Blair decides to hang up his boots as PM (or is pushed out), he will join the great gravy train that is the reward of an ex PM. Like many people who talk about lower labour costs elsewhere, etc, etc, he will not be taking a cut in income, rather it will lead to a massive increase in his income. I doubt that his wife would be prepared to work for the kind of fees that a third world lawyer would get either. It is always a case of do as I say and not do as I do.
With regard to the demise of the British car industry, there were plenty of the same shortcomings elsewhere in the European car industry, with Renault being a prime example. In the case of Renault, the French just wouldn't allow it to disappear.
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If only he practiced what he preaches.
I think he'd love to, but there's plenty of 'old' labour still in the party, plus all that union funding.
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I'll ALWAYS look to see where a product, or part (motor related of course) originates.
I was once a keen Buy British where possible, but now prefer to look Far East.
If companies can build quality & value for money, preferably with a willing & looked after workforce, good luck to them.
VB
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I worked at BL - Longbridge red Robbo time for my sins.
At Allegro launch time.
A clssic case of what Aprilia commented on.
The famous quartic steering wheel. might have been accepted but the crude plastic mouldings left a lip under the wheel which cut your hands.
The front wing dies used in the presses were not properly designed do the steel above the side lights always wringled after pressing and had to be ground down after pressing.. evry one (sometimes twice)
The Paint Plant which had permanent dirty air so all paint was applied with a random collection of dirt particles in the paint finish.
The Morris /Austin 2200s in serried ranks with failed driveshafts becuase the gerbox/driveshaft alignment had been incorrectly designed and the driveshafts failed - usually after 1 to 3,000 miles.
The management playing pool from 12 am to 2pm.
The production control systems which could not match up the number of seats ordered to the vehicles produced.
And so on and so on.
Faults on both sides. And a UK car pricing system setting prices 20% above European rates to protect BL. (both Labour and Conservative Gov'ts)
And to what avail?
Complete disaster area.
I read that some companies are complaining they can't get trained engineering staff. Well what a surprise.
madf
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I read that some companies are complaining they can't get trained engineering staff. Well what a surprise. madf
I hear this statement now, and I heard it when I was doing my engineering degree in Glasgow. Where exactly is this shortage of qualified staff? I graduated with a first class honours degree and had excellent references, but couldn't get a single interview for an engineering job. Not one. Most of the people I knew in uni were the same, and many of those people now stack shelves or deliver pizza for a living (no exaggeration). The lucky few who did get engineering jobs ended up on 18-20K, less than many muppets with human resource or marketing degrees. I decided to bail and come over to the US. Atleast as far as my career goes, it has been a great move. Engineers get so much more respect and value over here.
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Engineers get so much more respect and value over here.
And in Germany. In recent years design/development engineers left the company I worked for in Leeds to go to a sister company in Hannover ~ for more money and more respect.
I agree that there doesn't appear to be a shortage of engineering staff in this country ~ and htere hasn't been since the 1960s. But there is most certainly a shortage of jobs that pay decent salaries.
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L\'escargot.
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It always gives me great pleasure to be able to buy British. My TV, video and microwave were all made here, and are giving fine reliable service. However, I dont buy British if the quality or product is not right for me, so regretably I have had to buy a foreign built car. It certainly not a lack of patriotism on my part (strains of Jerusalem in the background, stands to attention...)
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MG Rover needed a new model range years ago.
VW nearly died in the 1970's because it clung on to its rear-engined aircooled beetle-based designs. The first attempt at a front wheel drive watercooled car was not a sales succees (K70, inherited from NSU) The Passat and Golf saved the day.
MGR needed to come up with a 'saviour model'.
I think there are more Pompeii's to come in the motor industry.
Fiat next?
Cheers, SS
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Fiat next?
Based on preformance? Yes
The Italian state will, however, bail it out. Full stop. EC rules or not. (The Italians are destroying the EC's credibility for fiscal probity imo )
Whilst the Italian Government can borrow money, that is.
So think 10-20 years...
madf
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The new Punto looks good - Might just save Fiat's bacon.
cheers, SS
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I thought Britain still built cars of good quality, albeit with foreign owners? The problem with the post WW II manufacturers was simply complacency. I was in the Excise, and saw things that would make your blood curdle, as did my colleagues. The complacency extended to both managers and designers/engineers. I am sure the workforce had limitations too (my uncle and cousin worked at Longbridge in the days when a job in the motor industry was regarded as a prize), but the British labour force makes good quality cars right now, and at least some of the engineers are British, as are some of the managers. The conclusion might be drawn that the motivation/attitude was the problem, and I would certainly support that. That seems to have been the problem at Mercedes, who with BMW and VW seem to have lost the plot in the quality/reliability area. But Ford now look good thanks to a determined effort on the quality front. There is a tide in the affairs of man..........
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I think the main arguement stemms from the percieved value of all sector (cars, FMGC etc) manufacturing within the UK.
It's not a government thing, it's an economy thing, it's a deep rooted professional view held by many generations.
The arguement is that manufacturing is hard work for all involved, wherever you are. But in the UK it's poorly paid hard work.
The above is true because market forces have long applied pressure. In the South West there are few manufacturing companies, keeping salaries down. In the East Midlands the textiles trade has for many years kept a lid on salaries of most rank and file in manufacturing.
The truth of the matter is that the UK was among the first in the indistrial revolution and we still think we know what's best.
Other contries have mastered the art of learning by both their own mistakes, and ours.
I digress slightly only to make my point.
Unlike a few others who posted here I have not worked abroad but having returned from the USA recently where everything worked, I was actually quite depressed in coming back via Gatwick where nothing seemed to go smoothly at the airport since the moment we touched down.
We were put out on the tarmac where we spent an hour waiting for some steps the right height to arrive to take us off the plane. The third set of steps actually worked! Then they wobbled like hell when we got off the plane. Nobody cared because we were just glad to get off. The airport bus driver took a wrong turn on the tarmac, further delaying our arrival at immigration.
Furthermore, unlike Orlando Sanford the loos at Gatwick were in an awful state, and I had a trolley that the americans simply would not have put up with.
Easily the worst part of that holiday was arriving back at Gatwick!
The fact is, its 's not just the motor industry that has suffered, it's not even just manufacturing. The whole country has simply forgotten how to do things properly - it's that bad.
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You're right of course, Hugo - but so is Aprilia above. The workers at Gatwick don't care because they are badly managed. Heathrow is just as bad. BAA is a complete basket case, and many of the delays blamed on British Airways are in fact caused by problems at the airports.
In the same way First Great Western, a good company which tries to care, gets the blame for delays almost always caused by the appalling Network Rail. And that was a creation of the idiotic privatisation structure imposed on the industry by the Major government.
Part of the problem is that institutional shareholders by demanding their pound of flesh won't allow even good managements to make long-term decisions. Ultimately, it has been short-termism on the part of managements which have caused the problems that started the rot, and the thoughts in this thread. Tony Blair can 'practise what he preaches' only if managements will allow it to happen.
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PS I can't resist pointing out, if we are talking about standards, that Pompeii has two i's.
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I cant resist pointing out, that it "as no eyes gov, they all got burned by the gas didnt they"
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Furthermore, unlike Orlando Sanford the loos at Gatwick were in an awful state
The loos at Gatwick make a terrible "welcome back" after catching the redeye from Minneapolis on Christmas eve! After seeing the state of them, decided to pass and wait till I reached Glasgow.
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The workers at Gatwick don't care because they are badly managed. Heathrow is just as bad. BAA is a complete basket case,
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sadly, unless baa follow the example of "gourmet gateway", they have no chance of changing the situation. they need to start afresh, sack the lot of the current workforce and employ willing hardworking eu member population from eastern europe.
currently the employers have virtually no control over the workers, it the union hardliners who rule, and the tail wags the dog.
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currently the employers have virtually no control over the workers, it the union hardliners who rule, and the tail wags the dog.
So it's these ruling union hardliners who set the wages in Gate Gourmet at such low levels?
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no wheels -
my only knowledge of these matters is what i read in geoarge orwell's book "animal farm" which was pure fiction.
the subject of conditions at airports raised by hugo is very interesting, but as the ex-mod no-fm2r has now pointed it out, this topic won't get very far. so i will not debate the finer points of who benefits from union membership and who sets the wages.
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So it's these ruling union hardliners who set the wages in Gate Gourmet at such low levels?
My sentiments exactly.
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L\'escargot.
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sadly, unless baa follow the example of "gourmet gateway", they have no chance of changing the situation. they need to start afresh, sack the lot of the current workforce and employ willing hardworking eu member population from eastern europe. currently the employers have virtually no control over the workers, it the union hardliners who rule, and the tail wags the dog.
Hey, let's rid ourselves entirely of those shiftless, idle and overpaid workers! Let's bring back slavery!
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"Hey, let's rid ourselves entirely of those shiftless, idle and overpaid workers! Let's bring back slavery!"
I could do with a couple, one to sort out domestic affairs and one to attend to the cars!
Then I could really retire at last.
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British industry and specifically the Car industry was complacent. They gave the buyer what they believed he should have - not what the buyer needed and wanted.
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They have got slavery in third world countries, making clothes, cars and producing food.
Have a good look what is going on in Brazil, rain forest chopped down and workers treated very badly.
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Have a good look what is going on in Brazil, rain forest chopped down and workers treated very badly.
Much the same in China. As industry moves over there, one of the net results is a massive reduction in the wages of the people who build the things we use. Globally, we are seeing a massive transfer of wealth up the social scale.
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How do you know how the workers are treated in Brasil ? And they are treated badly in comparison with what or who and by whom ?
I worked in BMW (Tritec) in Curitiba and VW in Sao Bernado, Sao Paulo. The conditions for workers there were better than most places in Brasil. Actually you'll find the same in places like Motorola in Campinas and others. Their pay would be [significantly] lower than in Europe, but of reasonable standing within Brasil. I can see that there might be shrot-comings, but slavery ? oh please.
More usually poor workers in Brasil are exploited in Brasilian companies, owned by rich Brasilians and oriented around working outside and especially in the smaller companies - but even that is improving.
I realise that's not a convenient set of circumstances, but there you go.
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My late father was a highly skilled engineer and was also works manager for a well known toys manufacturing company for around 10 years.
He told me in the 1960s that union restrictive practices would eventually destroy jobs and manufacturing in the UK.
One classic example of unions ending large numbers of well paid jobs for its members were the printing trade unions in the 1980s onwards.
Eddie Shah, of course, played an initial pivotal role in their eventual demise along with the Wapping episode.
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Agreed, Stuart, the restrictive practices were very largely responsible for British labour pricing itself out of the market, and the demise of the "native" British motor industry.
But Mrs Thatcher - whatever her faults - did manage to reduce the unions' power, and this made it possible for companies like Nissan, Toyota and Honda to set up plants here and run them profitably.
What she didn't do - and it's presty well impossible to legislate for - is restrict management's ability to manage badly. I don't know if Aprilia or anyone has experience of management in the above 3 companies, but I would imagine that it's of a high quality, as we are told it is in Japan.
High-quality products and services coms from well-managed workforces who care what they're doing. You just have to compare the reliability of most Japanese cars, or the good service given by a typical family-run garage, with the output of outfits like BAA and Gate Gourmet.
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>>companies like Nissan, Toyota and Honda>>
I've been round all three UK factories and the standards were very impressive.
In fact I recall the Honda factory was so clean you could have eaten the proverbial dinner off the floor.
I also recall that the Nissan factory was acknowledged by the Japanese big wigs to produce Primeras that were as good - and in some cases superior - to those built in Japan.
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>>But Mrs Thatcher - whatever her faults - did manage to reduce the unions' power>>
If she hadn't we'd probably be a banana republic now.
Even so we're descending into a service based economy and that's not healthy no matter how successful.
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>>But Mrs Thatcher - whatever her faults - did manage to reduce the unions' power>> If she hadn't we'd probably be a banana republic now.
We're definitely not that. Last time I as there (a decade ago), the Italians were calling this country "La Monarchia di Banana".
As long as Big Ears and his family hang on in there, we'll not be a banana republic.
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>>As long as Big Ears and his family hang on in there>>
Seem to have done more damage than all the unions put together..:-)
Manufacturing has declined dramatically over the last few years and only today there's news of 700 jobs going at a steel plant.
There are countless other examples and it will, in the end, put a severe strain on the economy. In fact many believe we are already most of the way there.
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"Manufacturing has declined dramatically"
Tosh.
If I have a company that makes a lathe for the motor industry (look, a motoring link!) then I am classed as manufacturing industry.
If I have a company that makes software for a lathe for the motor industry then I am classed as a service.
All the growth, the new industries (like the powerhouse that is UK software development) are classed as service (and it's clearly a pretty arbitrary definition) so of course manufacturing appears to be in decline.
PC - Manufacturing
MS Word - Service
Shape a piece of metal into a plate - manufacturing
Shape a piece of cow into a steak to put on the plate - service
V
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Agreed, Stuart, the restrictive practices were very largely responsible for British labour pricing itself out of the market, and the demise of the "native" British motor industry.
I find that it's usually people that get paid considerably more than those that they are belittling that say things like that!
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L\'escargot.
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