***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Vol 3 *****
As the title suggests, this thread is for all things Formula One and other general motorsport related stuff.
This is Volume 2.
Usual rules apply. When we get to around 100 posts, the thread will be locked and the next volume will start.
PLEASE NOTE
As with the IHAQ & the Computer threads, When posting a NEW topic, please "Reply to" the first message in this thread, i.e. this one. This keeps each topic in it's own separate segment and stops each new topic from getting mixed up in amongst existing topics. Also please remember to change the subject header.
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news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/world_rally/42...m
Hits home how precious life is and how dangerous motorsport really is.
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Improvements to car design have shielded us from the realities of high speed, the laws of physics and proximity to hard landscape features like trees or crash barriers.
It is remarkable how many F1 drivers have escaped with barely a scratch after high speed crashes.
Our thoughts must be with the family of the deceased.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Any fatal accident is a shock, even those in dangerous sports like motorsport.
However it is certainly safer than it used to be and must be a credit to those in the sport that I cannot remember the last fatal accident.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to add to the thread.
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Marco will probably get done for that and might even go to prison.
There is no need to sacrafice safety for trying to win the rally.
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It depends on the circumstances though.
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The police have sealed the area as a crime scene, and it is feasible the driver could be charged.
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The police have sealed the area as a crime scene,
>>
This is standard practice for a death under these circumstances.
I don't think there is any question of charges against the driver--nor should there be; both crew members were fully aware of the risks.
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The fact that its motorsport or both knew it was dangerous is not a legal defence.
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In the eyes of the law it is exactly the same as a normal motoring accident and is under Causing Death by Dangerious Driving.
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The fact that its motorsport or both knew it was dangerous is not a legal defence.
Only insofar that he willingly consented to the risks inherent in motorsport; that will be a defence to a civil claim provided the driver/others did nothing beyond the normal range of motorsport.
No idea what effect these circumstances would have on a criminal prosecution, though.
Whatever the legal situation, though, it is terrible news.
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I think that if the driver is charged this will see the end of rallying in Wales. Especially when some competitors were caught speeding between stages in 2003/4.There was talk then about never holding a world rally event in Wales again.
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As someone who still competes in motorsport,albeit autograss racing,and used to compete as a co-driver in rallying,much like Michael Park,this tragedy is felt very much by myself.
There is nothing better than the thrill of going between a set of trees at warp factor 9,and the sense of danger doesn't come into it,because you don't have time to think about it,as you are too busy concentrating on other things.
This is in no way any consolation,by at least he died doing something he enjoyed,and lived for.
My guess is,he started in the same way most others do,as a clubman,but through determination,and hard work,has succeeded in being up their with the best of them.
This loss is a tragedy not only to rallying,but motorsport in general.
My heartfelt condolences go to Michaels family.
Ken.
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Having also competed in both seats I echo the sentiments of Quinny.
The Police have a duty to the Coroner to investigate all untimely deaths hence their part in the investigation. This will be conducted with the assistance of The Motor Sports Association.
Sec 1 and 2 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 relate to 'Death by' and 'Dangerous Driving' which can be committed on a Road or Public Place (payment or otherwise). A Special Stage is clearly such a place.
However specific exemption was given to Motorsport as clearly the two do not sit together.
Fullchat
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Aren't the legal rumblings from Ayrton Sennas death still rumbling on? one of the reasons for the F1 organisers and Max M relocating to Monaco with it's lack of extradition treaties?.
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While it's true that motor sport is dangerous and those who participate know the risks, when a motor sport tragedy happens the victim is more often than not the driver of a competing car.
However, presumably a competing driver still has a legal duty of care to others even in a sporting competition on private land.
This tragedy is very sad and fatalities in rallying are surprisingly rare these days (Paris-Dakar aside).
Sofa Spud
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"fatalities in rallying are surprisingly rare"
Especially considering the proximity of trees and suicidal spectators...
I'm in awe of the skill and bravery of rally drivers, who still give it ten tenths without gravel traps or tyre walls. Desperately sorry for all concerned, especially Markko Martin.
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A sad outcome to the type of accident that is common in all forms of motorsport, pushing the vehicle to the limits and making a minor misjudgement.
In my view, any talk of criminal proceedings is ridiculous. Unless it could be proved that a driver deliberately caused an accident, by running another competitor off the track for example, it should be accepted as just one of the hazards of racing.
There are many incidents on the race track that with hindsight could be considered dangerous manouvres, but in the heat of the moment when a competitor is at ten tenths he must be allowed the possibility of misjudging and getting it wrong.
We are too eager to want people banged up just for the sake of it these days. The driver is probably already suffering enough after the tradgedy without the possibility of being dragged through a trial just to satisfy the safety fanatics.
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Tom
I think you've hit the nail on the head there.
My sympathies with the family.
Also, I would emplore you all to refrain from any further speculation on any legal proceedings that may or may not take place. That is all I ask besides the need for respect and sensitivity that goes without saying.
By all means continue other avenues of discussion for the moment.
Thanks
Hugo - BR Moderator
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4 people died on the great north run on sunday. Everyone knows motorsport is dangerous and accept the risk to some extent. Few would expect to go home in a box from a half marathon.
teabelly
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Those of you who aren't familiar with motorcycle road racing may never have heard of him, but road racing is a big sport here in NI and Richard Britton was one of the greats. He was killed at the weekend in an accident while racing in the final round of the Irish Road Racing Championships in Ballybunion, Co. Kerry. Apparently the bike seized on the first lap.
Just this year, he won three times at the Tandragee 100 and had also had podium finishes at the Isle of Man TT. He was 34 and leaves a wife and five-year-old son. His first race was in Aghadowey back in 1991, just a few miles from where I live.
This news saddens me because we seem to keep losing some of the great road racing characters, one of the more famous possibly being Joey Dunlop who was killed in Estonia a few years ago. Richard's key sponsor for many years was reported as having called for the sport to be banned. I have very mixed feelings about that, but don't want to debate it here. My condolences to his family and friends.
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andymc
Vroom, vroom - mmm, doughnuts ...
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I recently watched a few Road Races on the Men&Motors channel, the riders certainly are on the very Edge on very unforgiving circuits.
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According to the ITV F1 website, JB is staying put.
www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=34094
Doesn't look too rosy for Williams next year, what with first losing BMW engines, and also one of their main sponsors - Hewlett Packard.
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'Smug mode on' - told you so -see Vol 1. Smug mode off
I too worry about the future for Williams. As the last truly independent team I think the end is now all but nigh...
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I too worry about the future for Williams. As the last truly independent team I think the end is now all but nigh...
Now now, you're forgetting ...
Williams (the team and the man himself) have deep pockets. They also have a fine collection of personnel in their team and a pedigree history. They have also been performing consistantly better in the constructors championships than McLaren in recent years, and look how they bounced back this year.
I'm sure many companies would kill to sponsor/semi-own a team like Williams. They'll be back.
--------------
Mike Farrow
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My man on the inside of F1 has provided two snippets of info. recently.
Apparently BMW attempted to buy Williams but one of the principals, not Sir Frank, overvalued their share in the company. Thus making it a bad buy.
For the first time in 17 years there is no overtime at Williams, which suggests a number of things, one certainly being they are strapped for cash.
It would be a shame to see Williams fail but it is becoming increasibly apparent that F1 will be the preserve of manufacturers and one only has to look at the WRC to see where that could end.
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Reference the above, I don't know where I got the word increasibly from?! Subsititute the word increasingly and it may make some sense. :)
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According to the ITV F1 website, JB is staying put. www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=34094
Now confirmed
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/42...m
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Interesting to note in some quarters that Button's ability is now being questioned because of his failure to win a race yet. To be fair on his part he has only ever sat in one truly competitive car, in 2004, we all know what happened there regarding Ferrari.
A couple of questions.
Was Hakkinen considered a journeyman with his 97 starts and 0 wins before he was gifted his first win courtesy of Coulthard and Villeneuve in Australia?
Which driver had the most starts before winning a race and then going on to be a future champion?
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BTW, who is paying for the 18 million buyout of Button"s contract? Honda, BAR, Button himself, or is it offset against his future earnings at BAR? Anyone have any idea?
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Button is paying it, BAR are reimbursing him.
I heard ten million on the radio tonight.
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The series starts this weekend with the first round from Brands Hatch.
Shame that Sky have exclusive rights, which slashes the potential audience in this country. Clashing with Moto GP was not too clever either.
Can anyone see it mounting a challange to F1, or is it destined to be a minority interest, rather like Touring Cars?
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I'd like to see how this weekend goes - if it is as fun as it looks on paper, then it may reach a wider audience than F1 - but it has to keep its high profile team owners for that to happen. It has all the making for a great fun series - similar to Formula Renault/Ford/BMW etc and where better to start the series than Brands - a great track which offers a great challenge to the drivers and is great for the spectators at the track. Hope they make it fan friendly unlike F1!!
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A1 GP?
They need to beef up the driver line up considerably, (seems mostly to be a bunch of no hopers or has beens)
Given that it has a good crowd turn out at Brands it seems.
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Well the Sky presentation of the qualifying today was a disaster.
The lead presenter is a very attractive and enthusiastic young girl - ditto the 'expert' young girl in the British pit area with a very fashionable(so my daughter tells me) lob-sided blouse. To keep it politically correct a very fashionable and attractive young man was also in the studio.
The 4 practice sessions lasting 15 minutes were a free for all with all cars out at the same time - the cars waved out by a very attractive girl in a boiler suit. The aggregate of the 2 best lap times from the 4 sessions determined your position on the grid.
The coverage of the sessions I watched - before I switched off - was unbelievably poor. The producer went rapidly from car to car and the only time displayed on the screen was the time left in that session. I had no idea what was happening.
Lets hope the race is better.
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Lets hope the race is better.
It wasn't!
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I note with interest that an A1 car has a flat ground effect bottom with a plank like F1
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Did anyone go?
Was it fun?
Impressions?
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They'll have to get it on more accesible TV to make any impression I guess. Good in theory though.
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Yes - I was very interested to watch - but I refuse to pay for TV - there are enough adverts already so I have Freeview (mainly to get in early for the digital switch over) - so was not able to see it. The BBC website has precious little about it.
I was surprised to see a separate supplement in the DT about A1 GP last week. Surprised because the UK TV company supporting it is SKY.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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I think they've shot themselves in the foot going with Sky. BBC or Eurosport would have drawn a much bigger audience.
The majority of SKY subscribers pay for the football. Most of the rest on there is rubbish, and in my experience friends and collegues who are soccer fans tend not to be interested in motorsport and vice versa.
If mainstream TV wasn't interested in paying enough then Eurosport has a tradition of covering motorsport and is only half the price of SKY. Far from being a challenge to F1 I think it will generate about the same interest as Touring Cars or GP2, ie not much.
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There are a couple of posts in the F1 thread on this. I watched it on Sky and I wrote this after practice.
"Well the Sky presentation of the qualifying today was a disaster.
The lead presenter is a very attractive and enthusiastic young girl - ditto the 'expert' young girl in the British pit area with a very fashionable(so my daughter tells me) lob-sided blouse. To keep it politically correct a very fashionable and attractive young man was also in the studio.
The 4 practice sessions lasting 15 minutes were a free for all with all cars out at the same time - the cars waved out by a very attractive girl in a boiler suit. The aggregate of the 2 best lap times from the 4 sessions determined your position on the grid.
The coverage of the sessions I watched - before I switched off - was unbelievably poor. The producer went rapidly from car to car and the only time displayed on the screen was the time left in that session. I had no idea what was happening.
Lets hope the race is better."
The race presentation on TV today was equally dire.
Nelson Piquet(son of) won both races with ease. Standard of drivers was very mixed. Pit crew were a joke.
The breathless TV presentation was in the style of Saturday morning kids programmes. Like a hyper Murray Walker without a fraction of his knowledge.
As their living depends upon the series, everyone was at pains to say how exciting it was - it wasn't!
Dreadful
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I used to be an avid follower of Formula One but I gave up watching it about 3 years ago when it started to become dull and took to watching the BTCC.
I watched both A1 GP races on Sky and I thought the coverage of the racing was OK - at least there was no ad breaks and they had 2 recognised motorsport commentators. The studio coverage was not so good. As for the racing - bit disappointing but I think they may have shot themselves in the foot having the first race at Brands Hatch which is not the best track for exciting single seater racing.
Considering all the cars are mechanically identical I was surprised how far the field opened up, even during the sprint race. The Brazillians drove from the front much like Schumacher did pre 2005.
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Did any one watch the MotoGP qualifing from Sepang today? Won't spoil the result for anyone waiting to see it later, but do watch out for the lizard that decided to cross the track near the end of the session!
Looked like it could make it, then someone must have hit it, only for the camera to pan to Rossi coming towards it and hitting it again.
I know it may be sick, but it provided some light entertainment to run along side a great qualifying session.
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They had a similar incidend a few years ago when a Cobra got on the track during qualifying in one of the hotter countries. It got hit by about three bikes and was killed, though I thought the marshall who went to retrieve it was rather brave as he did not know that at the time.
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Well ITV did well again didn't they? Bug crash from the grid and they missed it - car goes on fire in the pit lane and they miss it as well!
So thats all the excitement gone already and they missed it!
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To be fair to ITV (and its not normal that I would!) its not them controlling the feed - this race is down to the Brazilian producer.
I've just watched MS coming out of the pits, side by side with Fisi going into Turn 3 - and where do the cameras cut to - Ralph coming out of the pit box :-(
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Congrats to Fernando...nice to have a new champ. Wasn't a very exciting race though
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Yep, the feed is entirely out of ITVs hands.
Still, not as bad as some bikes I was watching on Eurosport the other week. Clearly the commentators were in a studio in England, as when something had happened during a commercial break they said "we don't know what has happened, we can only see what you can"
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Test Match Special started this way with telex report of each ball and the commentator in a studio making it up as he went along!
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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I know Finnish drivers pretty much dominate Rallying and to a certain degree I can understand that, however there seem to be a lot of Finnish drivers also involved in various forms of single seater racing. This got me wondering where the Finns get their motorsport connections from?
Just to name ones that I know of - and I'm no expert!
F1
Kimi Raikkonen
Mika Hakkinen
Mika Salo
JJ Lehto
Keke Rosberg
Up and coming in GP2....
Nico Rosberg (son of Keke, tipped to be getting a Williams' F1 drive next season)
Heikki Kovalainen
I won't even bother to try and name finnish rally drivers - the list is endless and includes most of the "greats"!
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OK, Nico Rosberg may not be such a good "Finnish" example; Though he is the son of Finnish 1982 F1 World Champion Keke Rosberg, Nico was born in Germany and does race under the German flag.
Also his heritage probably meant that he was always going to be involved in motor racing regardless of his "nationality", in the same way as the Piquets, Fittipaldis, Laudas, Scheckters, Andrettis etc. of this world.
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news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/43...m
Team no 11? Any inside info?
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Rumours are that Coco Cola have long been interested in sponsoring an F1 team but were put off by sharing a grid with cars displaying tobacco advertising, thus tarnishing their clean image.
They are at present major sponsors of the Tour de France, but are uneasy at the sports connections with drug abuse. They are one of the names being linked with a new F1 team.
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My analysis -for what its worth...
Now that Fiat are going rallying, of the mainstream motor manufacurers only a few are unrepresented at the top table of motorsport (F1 and/or WRC).
I think VAG must be thinking about it.
Where is GM - huge in USA, dont bother here apart from BTCC.
Of course the new team won't necessarily be a manufacturer, as Honda are willing to supply engines. This sounds like something Richard Branson would enjoy, or how about easyRace, with nice orange cars.
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I taped the live Japanese GP. Watched it this morning.
If you have any interest in F1 or motorsport in general, watch it or tape it. Re run ITV 14:00.
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It's on the TiVo ready for me at about 4 pm. I used to doze through it though - this one sounds different! (More recently I've stayed awake for more of it though).
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Saw it live this morning (at last a benefit of early rising kids!). Best race in ages, so at least try to catch the highlights, because there are some for a change.
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Missed the afternoon showing, so I will catch it tonight. Thanks for not giving away the result.
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BARs Takuma Sato has been disqualified from his home Grand Prix for running Toyotas Jarno Trulli off the road.
After examining video evidence and showing it to both drivers and their team managers, stewards decided that Sato had forced Trulli off the track and subsequently stripped him of his result.
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Watched it in chunks (pub and sleep in between), just finished. Great race. I'm wondering whether Sato shouldn't have L plates - he's made quite a few basic mistakes this season!
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Am I right in thinking that Sato has to have spotters telling him what's around him?
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Am I right in thinking that Sato has to have spotters telling him what's around him?
Spotter? white stick and guide dog!
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Having seen quite a lot of the safety cars during the last two F1 races, I was following some of the idle chatter by the commentators while the cars were following the car. Mention was made of discussion for a replacement for the current cars because they are too slow....tyres go cold, lack of down force etc. Considering the number of accidents that occur either during or shortly after a safety car period then maybe there is something to this theory.
But, I timed the laps under a safety car and reckon that it was lapping at around 80-90mph at a fairly steady speed. I know it is a Silver Mercedes...but what type?
The reason given for not using an old F1 car was suitability for all track conditions without a dedicated support team.
So what production cars would make the shortlist?
StarGazer
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Mondeo TDCi ;-)
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What about something really out of the ordinary like a DB9 or something like that?
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But, I timed the laps under a safety car and reckon that it was lapping at around 80-90mph at a fairly steady speed. I know it is a Silver Mercedes...but what type?
The current F1 safety car is an SLK 55 AMG.
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I seem to remember that at one time in the past Williams-Renault were building an Espace with an F1 engine in it, to be used as a safety car. Don't remember ever seeing it in use though.
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I saw this car being driven around the Dijon circuit years ago. Surreal seeing an Espace coming towards you, but hearing the sound of an F1 car screaming at same time!
Also at Goodwood, saw the Ford Transit version. Not as impressive it has to be said!
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I have seen the Renault F1 Espace at speed as well, strange thing is to see an espace go round a bend, very quickly indeed with not one inch of body roll!
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With China now behind us, I am actually quite disappointed that the season is now finished. The last few races have given us some great racing, and it wasn't solely because the Championships had to be decided.
Alonso and Raikennon (SP?) both had fantastic seasons, and love him or hate him, you have to feel a bit sorry for Schuie and the Ferrari team. IMO Button has failed to live up to expectations a couple of times, but I reckon next year will seee him shine. Years ago I thought Fischy was champion materail but I now think he hasn't quite got what it takes. Oh, and Sato needs to have his licence revoked for a season :-). Most of the new boys showed some promise, in my opinion Doornbas was the least impressive.
The team changes next season should be interesting, proper factory backing for a BMW team will be good as will Honda's involvement. I'd like to see qualifying become more competitive (more than one car on track at a time!) and with hindsight I think many of this year's rule changes made for a more interesting season.
TV coverage is improving all the time, despite the local producers! In-car shots are now almost as good quality as ordinary cameras, and in the last couple of GPs they were using some rail mounted cameras which zoomed along beside the track or pits. I skip through most of the pre-race stuff except the Brundle bits (tech explanations and grid walk) but the commentary is usually good and even Louise and James Allen seem to have upped their game!
There, my views in a nutshell... :-)
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Couldn't agree more smokie.
I would also like to see the return of the hour long qualifying, with light fuel and unlimited laps (to keep cars on the track all the time) Just watch the qualifying of MotoGP.
Reduce the aero packages by limiting the surface area of the wings, this should also help with overtaking. And please bring back tyre changes.
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I rather like the one lap qualifiers. It gives you two races for the price of one, and adds a bit of chance into the equation like when the fast boys had to go out in the rain (Brazil?)
Next season should be interesting, all new engines with no previous to build on. That could lead to a shake up in the pecking order if one or more of the big teams get it wrong.
We are always saying how much more exciting Moto Gp is than F1, but this year it has been the other way round, with Rossi able to spend 3/4 of the race sussing out the track and the competition before deciding at which point he will ride away and cruise to victory. Roll on 2007 if the indications of a switch to four wheels is true.
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The likes of Nigel Mansell, Emerson Fittipaldi, Alain Prost, etc just don't know when to quit....
www.gpmasters.com
* Proven Formula One Masters
* Equal 600+bhp cars
* Saturday open qualifying
* Sunday race day with support races
* 12 World Champions eligible
* Full driver accessibility
* Large international TV reach
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It looks odd, but given the reality that F1 is never going to without wings entirely, if it works and assists overtaking it might just be worth it:
www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=34425
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I love this bit:
"Acting on the results of a detailed survey of F1 fans that highlighted the lack of overtaking as a key concern"
Yeah, because you needed a survey to realise that no overtaking was a bad thing.
The issue with this of course is that the current design of cars has nothing to do with the FIA - the teams design themselves, and as far as they're concerned dirty air on their own car is a good thing, I'd imagine.
I suppose the way they'd have to go would be ruling on a certain central width which was not allowed to have any wings, and let the teams take it from there.
I bet you'd soon get them designing systems which found a way to recreate the dirty air effect though.
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> > I bet you'd soon get them designing systems which found a way to recreate the dirty air effect though
Exactly the conversation I've just had!
How to get maximum turbulence for minimum drag.
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{psst... you're supposed to say something about 'great minds'!}
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Same challenge as they have now, maximising downforce though exchanging drag for turbulence.
Allowing under car venturis and very small wings might help, it would mean that ground effect could be used to create some down force and to do so a clean departure of the air from the rear of the car would be required hence turbulence would be reduced.
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The problem I see with under car venturis is safety; the car will grip nicely all the time it is riding at its controlled height above the road, but as soon as this is greatly reduced or exceeded, grip goes out of the window and so does the intended trajectory if around a corner.
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addendum:
The problem I see with under car venturis generating the bulk of aero downforce is safety.
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I agree, though perhaps 25% via ground effect would help in other areas.
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I agree. This is why 'ground effect' cars were banned in the first place.
Bringing back slicks is a good idea though,perhaps from one tyremaker so that no one team has an advantage.
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