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Lorry overtaking peril - machika
This happened to me (again), today, as I was travelling down to Lichfield. I was about to overtake a lorry and was level with the back end of the lorry, when the lorry driver signalled to pull out to overtake the lorry in front of him. It had been raining heavily and there was a lot of spray, but I did have dipped headlights on, so he must have seen me. I flashed my headlights hoping he would have had the prescence of mind to realise the danger but, no, he just pulled out all the same. I had to brake to avoid a collision, which therefore put me at risk of being shunted from behind. I have tried using the horn before, but it is ignored just the same.

Before the lorry drivers in this forum say that I should be watching out for lorries to pull out, and car drivers are just as bad, there is no way one should have to expect it to happen when one is on the verge of going past another vehicle; the manoeuvre is just downright dangerous, especially on a very wet road. It happens to me frequently with lorry drivers and much less so with car drivers.
Lorry overtaking peril - SjB {P}
I use an anticipatory approach to any vehicle following another at constant speed, or closing to the degree that it might pull out to overtake the one in front:

If they are in the inside lane and the outside (third) lane is clear behind me, I pull out to leave an empty lane between us. If this is not possible or there is no third lane, I drop my speed and sit clearly in mirror view for a period of time before committing myself to an overtake. If I feel it necessary, I will do this in fourth gear, not fifth, quickly.

I also consciously scan the numberplate to see if the truck is left hand drive or not because if it is, I'm going to disappear in to a bigger blind spot when alongside it.
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
One can't keep slowing down and waiting, and then speeding up when overtaking a long line of lorries. I was on a two lane dual carriageway and so had nowhere to go. It is up to the driver in the inside lane to make sure it is sensible and safe pull out. Putting on an indicator doesn't mean they have the right to pull out, or ignore warning signals from overtaking vehicles.
Lorry overtaking peril - $till $kint
It's an indicator, not a god-given right to pull out. This isn't unique to lorry drivers. I've seen this all over the country and it is just as likely to be a car driver.

I can only guess that with the passage of time the driving test mantra of mirror, signal, manouvere becomes corrupted into "manouvere whilst signalling, check mirror to see if drive of car I've just cut up is bigger than me and if not, make gesture of limp wristedness".
Lorry overtaking peril - Happy Blue!
As much I try to do as SjB does when overtaking, machika is right and it has happened to me often enough.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
Lorry overtaking peril - AngryJonny
Is it possible he interpreted the headlight flashing as a "go on, you pull out" signal, rather than a "I'm already here you fool" signal?
Lorry overtaking peril - $till $kint
Is it possible he interpreted the headlight flashing as a "go
on, you pull out" signal, rather than a "I'm already here
you fool" signal?


Well the highway code tells you that a flash is a warning, not an invitation.
Lorry overtaking peril - Red Baron
Same here...I too find myself sitting in lane three when lane two is perfectly empty and I would normally pull into lane two except for the fact that in a procession of five juggernaughts in lane one, one of them is bound to want to pull out one at any moment. Generally at the point where I have just begun my manouevre and with little or no warning.
Lorry overtaking peril - AngryJonny
>> Is it possible he interpreted the headlight flashing as a
"go
>> on, you pull out" signal, rather than a "I'm already
here
>> you fool" signal?
>>
Well the highway code tells you that a flash is a
warning, not an invitation.


Indeed it does. But not everyone knows their highway code as well as the average Backroom reader. It would explain why he did what he did, not excuse it.
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
Indeed it does. But not everyone knows their highway code as
well as the average Backroom reader. It would explain why he
did what he did, not excuse it.


Lorry drivers are full time, professional drivers, so they have no excuse for not knowing the highway code. As I said earlier, I have tried using the car horn before but they have ignored that as well. The car has Xenon lights, so he couldn't have failed to see me before he signalled and before I flashed the main beam.
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
Lorry drivers are full time, professional drivers, so they have no
excuse for not knowing the highway code. As I said
earlier, I have tried using the car horn before but they
have ignored that as well. The car has Xenon lights,
so he couldn't have failed to see me before he signalled
and before I flashed the main beam.


Most of us do know the highway code, however, it is quite normal to use the headlight flash as a means of letting them know it is safe to pull out/in - even tough this is not the use of it in the highway code. As for your horn, it is very difficult to hear a car horn with the windows done up sitting on top of 12 litres of diesel engine, let alone the vehicles moving and having the dopler affect working against you.
Lorry overtaking peril - Dynamic Dave
As for your horn, it is very difficult to hear


You beat me to it TU.
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
Most of us do know the highway code, however, it is
quite normal to use the headlight flash as a means of
letting them know it is safe to pull out/in - even
tough this is not the use of it in the highway
code. As for your horn, it is very difficult to hear
a car horn with the windows done up sitting on top
of 12 litres of diesel engine, let alone the vehicles moving
and having the dopler affect working against you.

>>

I was told about headlight flashing by my driving instructor and he made it quite clear, it is to let people know you are there and it doesn't give any driver the right to assume anything else. If I cannot flash my lights and sounding the horn won't work, how does one warn another driver of one's proximity? Another thing that has not been addressed is, why do I have to anticipate a lorry driver pulling out when I am at any stage in the overtaking process? I have had it done to me when I have been alongside a lorry. Have I done something wrong by placing my car alongside the lorry?
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
I was told about headlight flashing by my driving instructor and
he made it quite clear, it is to let people know
you are there and it doesn't give any driver the right
to assume anything else. If I cannot flash my lights
and sounding the horn won't work, how does one warn another
driver of one's proximity?

Your driving instructor is technically correct, but in the real world it has different meanings!!!

Another thing that has not been
addressed is, why do I have to anticipate a lorry driver
pulling out when I am at any stage in the overtaking
process? I have had it done to me when I
have been alongside a lorry. Have I done something wrong
by placing my car alongside the lorry?


It is either you are just unlucky or as i suspect is that you are putting yourself in the wrong position, A truck has very bad blindspots just alongside the rear wheels of the tractor unit passing under the drivers door until the front bumper. If you spend any length of time sat around these areas expect not to be seen i'm afraid, at the end of the day even truck drivers are human, and though we have pretty good visability we only have one pair of eyes!!!!!
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
"A truck has very bad blindspots just alongside the rear wheels of the tractor unit passing under the drivers door until the front bumper. If you spend any length of time sat around these areas expect not to be seen"

Oh I see now. It's the car drivers' fault for being in your way.

As you have just admitted on behalf of your trucking brtehern that you can never be sure that its safe to overtake then we should pass immediate legislation to ban lorries from moving out of the inside lane on all multiple lane roads. This would mak us all much safer.

It is YOUR responsibility to make sure it is clear to pull out and NOT my responsibility to make sure you have seen me!
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
Oh I see now. It's the car drivers' fault for being
in your way.

And your car is blind spot free is it? Maybe you should bring a law suit against the manufactures for making such dangerous vehicles!!
As you have just admitted on behalf of your trucking brtehern
that you can never be sure that its safe to overtake
then we should pass immediate legislation to ban lorries from moving
out of the inside lane on all multiple lane roads. This
would mak us all much safer.

A
s would banning all cars from public roads because the odd peadestrian geats run over!!
It is YOUR responsibility to make sure it is clear to
pull out and NOT my responsibility to make sure you have
seen me!


WRONG, it is your responsibilty to avoid an accident, if that means not being in a silly place then that is what you should do. I do not know what level of driving you have but I do not think you have been on any advanced courses. If you had then you would know that they teach you not to remain aside a car let alone an LGV.
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
I said I wasn't going to debate this but....

I never claimed cars are, or are not, free of blind spots and that is not the issue in question. You were trying to justify the dangerous antics of lorry drivers by claiming innocennce due to blind spots.

I would agree to banning all cars quite happily exactly one year after all trucks are banned (and don't give me the "how are you going to get food into supermarkets....." carp).

As for being in a silly place, it seems your mental faculties may be questionable since I believe the basic concept of safe driving is checking it is safe to occupy a piece of road before occupying it. And, if you can't be sure due to, oh lets say a blind spot, then don't make the manoeuvre!

Not that it is relevant really but I was taught to drive by a Police class 1 driver just after I passed my test.

Any more insults that you want to hurl or can we debate the subject in question?
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
If you could point out the insult that I have hurled I would be very grateful.

As I have said more then once in this thread alone and lots of times in other threads I WILL NOT TRY TO JUSTIFY THE ANTICS OF ANY DANGEROUS DRIVERS. I have however been pointing out facts about visibilty and the reality of driving in todays environment.
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
WRONG, it is your responsibilty to avoid an accident, if that
means not being in a silly place then that is what
you should do. I do not know what level of driving
you have but I do not think you have been on
any advanced courses. If you had then you would know that
they teach you not to remain aside a car let alone
an LGV.


One remains alongside a lorry for as long as it takes it to overtake it, that much can't be avoided. One shouldn't have to anticipate that the lorry driver will attempt to pull out whilst alongside it. If there are vehicles in front, the overtaking speed will be limited to what those vehicles are doing and there is the little matter of speed limits and general road conditions
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
Not trying to be funny or trying to sound off but I think it would be a wise investment for you to do your advanced driving test, you would learn an awful lot from it.
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
"Not trying to be funny or trying to sound off but I think it would be a wise investment for you to do your advanced driving test, you would learn an awful lot from it."

For someone who is not trying you are doing well. That's 2 peoples' driving standard/ability you have insulted without any justification.

Fact is that you are tring to defend the indefensible.

A good number, if not the majority, of lorry drivers deliberatley, and in most cases dangerously, intimidate car drivers by pulling out.

The ones that do it accidentally because the car was in their blind spot are negligent.

On the basis this seems to be a regular occurence, a proprtion of lorry drivers are deliberatley dangerous and a proportion are negligent. The only question to be answered really is the number!
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
I am trying to point out that on advanced driving courses you are taught a number of techniques that it is clear that neither of you posess. Now if I was trying to insult either of you I can assure you that it would be far more blatent then the comments I have made in this thread.

And as for your last paragraph, well that fits in to the same book with the famous question "So chief inspector have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
"I am trying to point out that on advanced driving courses you are taught a number of techniques that it is clear that neither of you posess."

Clear to whom?

You seem to think that Machika and I do not realise that, wherever possible if one values one's life, one should avoid lingereing in the "blind spots" of truckers. I am perfectly aware of that as I am sure is Machika but the point is that whether we try and avoid it or not (which I assure you I do) the onus is on the vehicle making the manoeuvre to ensure it is safe to do so. How hard is this concept to understand?

I apoogise if I, as a car driver, fall short of your expected standard of driver but I think that, although you may be a paragon of virtue, you need to relaise that there are other lorry drivers out there who are most certainly not.
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
So how come I have never had the problems that you and Machika have expierenced? I don't for one minute think it is luck, therefore it must be down to something else. And I have not always driven trucks, I have spent many thousands of miles driving Vecdeo's around the uk and europes motorways.
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
I suppose you must be a superior being or perhaps on your planet truck drivers obey the highway code!

Or perhaps you didn't notice them pulling out on you! ;-)

Anyone else out there NEVER had a truck pull out on them?

Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
I suppose you must be a superior being


Glad to see you have finally admitted it. ;o)
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
From the OED:

Superior? adjective
1 higher in status, quality, or power.
2 of high standard or quality.
3 (superior to) above yielding to or being influenced by.
4 conceited

Pick your own definition. I know which one I would choose :-p
Lorry overtaking peril - Dynamic Dave
I have tried using the car horn before but they
have ignored that as well.


Do you seriously expect a lorry driver to hear your horn? Haven't been in a lorry cab for years, but I imagine the sound of the engine is surpressed a lot more by sound proofing than it used to be.

Regardless of this, I imagine a lorry driver wouldn't be able to hear a car horn because of either the engine noise, or the sound proofing.

Was the lorry a left hooker? I've read reports that left hookers have terrible blind spots as their mirrors aren't set up for uk roads.
Lorry overtaking peril - Cardew
>> I have tried using the car horn before but they
>> have ignored that as well.
Do you seriously expect a lorry driver to hear your horn?
Haven't been in a lorry cab for years, but I imagine
the sound of the engine is surpressed a lot more by
sound proofing than it used to be.
Regardless of this, I imagine a lorry driver wouldn't be able
to hear a car horn because of either the engine noise,
or the sound proofing.
Was the lorry a left hooker? I've read reports that left
hookers have terrible blind spots as their mirrors aren't set up
for uk roads.


I would hope the lorry cab is a quieter environment these days or they wouldn't be able to listen to their mobile phones which seem to be glued to their ear.
Lorry overtaking peril - codefarm
>>> One can't keep slowing down and waiting, and then speeding up when overtaking a long line of lorries<<<

I don't want to get into a flame-war but would respectfully disagree with that statement. Any advanced drivers here care to comment?
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
>>> One can't keep slowing down and waiting, and then speeding
up when overtaking a long line of lorries<<<
I don't want to get into a flame-war but would respectfully
disagree with that statement. Any advanced drivers here care to comment?

>>

So, you are driving down a dual carriageway approaching a line of lorries nose to tail and you slow down and wait to see if one of them pulls out? Having done that and no lorry pulls you, you speed up again, I presume, and attempt to pass them. As you get alongside one of them, a lorry signals to pull out. Same scenario I think, as the one I faced. You can anticipate all you like but it is ridiculous to accept that a vehicle should pull out in front of you when you are virtually alongside it.
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
I am not about to start to pick this posting to pieces, nor am I going to try and stick up for the Lorry driver IF it was as clear cut as you say it was (but there are always two sides), but what I will say is that in my time driving a car I can not remember having been cut up in this way by a truck. Maybe this is because I read the road ahead, that includes looking to see if one vehicle in front is catching another and so will be pulling out, If you do any sort of advanced driving course they teach you that if you can not get past the vehicle to your left without having to stay alongside it for a prolonged period of time then it is not a safe manoeuvre. As for the spray, it is very difficult to see cars even with dipped beams on if it is raining hard and the mirrors are covered in water.
Lorry overtaking peril - codefarm
>>what I will say is that in my time driving a car I can not remember having been cut up in this way by a truck.<<

>>Maybe this is because I read the road ahead, that includes looking to see if one vehicle in front is catching another and so will be pulling out<<

The first time I got scared to death by a lorry starting to amble out while I was passing him was also the last.

My rule is: if there is more than one lorry ahead in the same lane, one of them is bound to start ambling out. So I storm past them as fast as possible, leave a lane between, or stay where I am. And like Truckersunite I've never had a problem since.


Lorry overtaking peril - cheddar
To reinforce a point already made, there are too many drivers (whatever the vehicle) who believe that by indicating they have the right to manouver and thus completely ignore another driver right of way as defined in the Highway Code.
Lorry overtaking peril - AngryJonny
Now there's a question.

Let's say you were involved in an accident where a lorry pulled out into your lane while you were there. You could have avoided it by accelerating out of trouble but that would have involved breaking the speed limit, so you didn't. Would the police put any of the blame on your shoulders, as to prevent the accident would have involved breaking the law?
Lorry overtaking peril - Hugo {P}
A good motorway tip anyone can apply.

Before even contemplating overtaking a vehicle (whether it be a lorry, car white van man or whatever), check to see whether or not it's closing in on the vehicle in front.

If it is, either wait, or move into the next lane on the RHS if there is one and traffic conditions allow. This gives the overtaken vehicle more room if he hasn't seen you. If conditions don't allow you to do this, hang back for a few secs to see what unfolds and assess the position.

If he is not closing in, then he could be driving close, as truckers often do to one another for slip streams etc, or he could be waiting for the right moment. You need to decide.

This is not a total panacea for every such event but it will work for some.

H
Lorry overtaking peril - SjB {P}
A good motorway tip anyone can apply.... etc...


Exactly what I wrote above!
Lorry overtaking peril - Altea Ego
Bear this in mind. Regardless if its right or wrong, or what the highway code says, a quick flash of the headlights will be interpeted by 99% of lorry drivers as "the rear of your trailor is clear, pull out/in"

The higway code can say what it likes, but in the UK that is the practise.

(Its other way round in Europe - flash your lights to say "dont you dare pull out" or "get out of my way I am coming through like it or not"
Lorry overtaking peril - Roberson
Bear this in mind. Regardless if its right or wrong, or
what the highway code says, a quick flash of the headlights
will be interpeted by 99% of lorry drivers as "the rear
of your trailor is clear, pull out/in"


I think this is the top and bottom of this saga. You flashed as a warning (the continental way) but he took this as 'go ahead, pull out'.

Look at it this way, no one was hurt and you've learnt a valuable lesson about the use of flashing your headlamps!
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
I am not about to start to pick this posting to
pieces, nor am I going to try and stick up for
the Lorry driver IF it was as clear cut as you
say it was (but there are always two sides), but what
I will say is that in my time driving a car
I can not remember having been cut up in this way
by a truck. Maybe this is because I read the road
ahead, that includes looking to see if one vehicle in front
is catching another and so will be pulling out, If you
do any sort of advanced driving course they teach you that
if you can not get past the vehicle to your left
without having to stay alongside it for a prolonged period of
time then it is not a safe manoeuvre. As for the
spray, it is very difficult to see cars even with dipped
beams on if it is raining hard and the mirrors are
covered in water.


You have been very fortunate not to be cut up this way by a lorry driver. As for being in rain, it calls for greater care before pulling out.

With regard to looking to see if one vehicle in front is catching another, many lorry drivers drive nose to tail for miles without catching up and, if they are that close and travelling at a similar speed, which they mostly are, it is impossible to tell if one is gaining on another. Don't overtake if you cannot get past the vehicle to your left without having to stay alongside it for a long time? That is the opposite of what almost every lorry driver does when overtaking, isn't it?
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
You have been very fortunate not to be cut up this
way by a lorry driver. As for being in rain,
it calls for greater care before pulling out.


It was not being fortunate, just driving with for thought.
With regard to looking to see if one vehicle in front
is catching another, many lorry drivers drive nose to tail for
miles without catching up and, if they are that close and
travelling at a similar speed, which they mostly are, it is
impossible to tell if one is gaining on another. Don't
overtake if you cannot get past the vehicle to your left
without having to stay alongside it for a long time?
That is the opposite of what almost every lorry driver does
when overtaking, isn't it?


If we had the option we would like to get past the vehicle to our left as quickly as possible, however, the powers that be seem to think that fitting a speed limiter set at no more then 56mph is a jolly good idea!!!!!!
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
It was not being fortunate, just driving with for thought.

If we had the option we would like to get past
the vehicle to our left as quickly as possible, however, the
powers that be seem to think that fitting a speed limiter
set at no more then 56mph is a jolly good idea!!!!!!

>>

With regard to forethought, if you do slow down every time you approach a line of lorries, you are going to get some very frustrated drivers behind you. As I said earlier, you can wait as long as you like to see if a lorry pulls out, but there is no guarantee it won't try to pull out when you do eventually try to overtake. There really is no excuse for such a manoeuvre, if it endangers the overtaking driver.
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
Look, I know that Truckersunite is not going to like this and I am not going to get into a debate about it but....

I commute 124 miles round trip a day. Approximately 100 of this is on the A14 between J3 (Kettering) and J33(Newmarket), the vast majority of which is 2 lane dual carriageway, except the bit between Bar Hill and the Girton interchange.

To pass the journey, most of which I do on cruise control circa 72mph indicated (wherever possible), I observe other drivers and can usually anticipate what they are going to do, and when, by the position they take up in their lane. There's more to reading non obvious signals than most people realise and many read the road position signals without knowing it.

Anyway, I believe (i.e. it is my opinion to which I believe I am entitled) that, apart from the odd "Saint" like Truchersunite, most lorry drivers will happily use their bulk to intimidate anyone that gets in their way as they believe in their self righteous way that they have a right to baulk any other motorist that they feel like because they have to bring their speed back up to 56mph and it 'takes ages'! Let me make make my point clearly - Any Lorry drivers reading this - You do not have priority because you are unable to accelerate quickly!

Having said the above, if it is convenient and safe to do so I will always make room for another vehicle, car, Lorry or Bike if I can but I will not be bullied. Since A lorry pulled out on me and held me up for 7 miles while he overtook another lorry I am a little more "assetive"

I have lost count of the number of lorries that have cut me up by changing lanes suddenly (swerving rather than gentle drift), often without any indication and frequently late indication.

I saw 2 lorries veering from side to side this evening (admittedly within their own lane but it was disconcerting) and both were on the phone (not hands free).

Before anyone feels obliged to point it out, yes, I am aware that my puny car will come off worse but isn't that what these "professionals" are relying on: Bully tactics!

I'm know there are some good lorry drivers out ther but the majority are as selfish as everyone else on the road but the lorry drivers abuse their size and use intimidation techniques.

Oh, by the way, since when did lorries enetering the main carriageway from a slip road not have to give way? It seems thay don't bother anymore!

Now that the blue touch paper has been lit I shall retire to a safe distance!
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
Going back to the days of my driving lessons, the procedure for pulling out of a line of traffic to overtake (or from stationary) was - mirror, signal (if there is a big enough gap to any vehicle approaching from behind) and then pull out. If visibility is not good enough to see behind, then there is doubt, so that means it is not safe to presume it is ok to pull out
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
The procedure during an LGV test is to "Mirror, Signal, Mirror, Maneouvre" so we are expected to check the mirror more often then in the car test. But I really must stress the point that in the wet and spray a car gets easily lost in the spray, even with the lights on. In the rain last week I saw cars driving with only side lights on, some were grey in colour and were impossible to spot, the more time we spend looking in our mirrors the less time we spend looking ahead, there is always a trade off. Having your lights on does not exempt you from driving in a defensive style so to avoid all accidents. If I drove round all day expecting people to drive exactly like the highway code says we should then I would have lots of accidents everyday - would I still be in the right?? No I would not.....you should always drive with the assumption that other drivers will do the most stupid thing possible, that way you will never be dissapointed.
Lorry overtaking peril - machika
I drive with my headlights on in rain, at all times. On the C5 they are Xenon lights, so as bright as you will find. There is little doubt that the lorry driver should have seen me when I was level with the back end of the lorry, even with the spray. I drive with more caution in the rain and I have had enough experience of lorry drivers to know that they often signal and pull out in one manoeuvre. So I am looking out for them. At some stage I make a decision to overtake and, even then I expect them to signal and pull out in one manoeuvre. I get very near to them and still I am watching for it to happen. If I am alongside them and it happens, what do you suggest doing? No light flashing because they will still assume it is OK to pull out? No horn sounding because they won't hear it?
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
"But I really must stress the point that in the wet and spray a car gets easily lost in the spray, even with the lights on"

In that case you (lorry drivers) shouldn't be overtaking if you can't be 100% sure there isn't a car hidden in your plume of spray!
Lorry overtaking peril - Truckersunite
Look, at the end of the day I am not defending bad driving antics by some lorry drivers - as has been said time and time again there are good and there are bad truck and car drivers, all I have been trying to point out is the physics of driving a large vehicle in the rain and wet. There is reduced visibilty, fact. Everyone has to be more careful, there are more accidents in these types of conditions for good reason, and it is the duty of EVERYONE to try and avoid those accidents, not just the people who are driving to the highway code.
Lorry overtaking peril - tyre tread
"....and it is the duty of EVERYONE to try and avoid those accidents, not just the people who are driving to the highway code."

I agree but like I said it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the person/vehicle performing the manoeuvre to make sure it is safe to do so. In my opinion, and experience, most lorry drivers will intimidate rather than wait.

If you can't see it's clear, or you would cause another road user to change course or speed then don't make the manoeuvre. It's that simple.
Lorry overtaking peril - Hugo {P}
I think everything has been covered in this particular discussion.

I'm locking this thread, as I'm sure next time someone else gets cut up by a car/truck/white van/ice cream float etc we'll all hear about it all over again ;)

Hugo - BR Moderator
 

Value my car