Working in the industry I have seen how these problems arise.
Basically the engineers know how to design a good and reliable car. However, in most auto companies, the aim is to make money - the vehicle is merely a means to that end. So costs are cut and labour costs (number of engineers and development time) are minimised. Most of these companies are run by accountants.
The Japanese employ proportionately many more engineers than most US and European companies so products are much more thoroughly developed. They also benefit from a strong consumer electronics industry which has vast experience in building reliable electronic products in large volume at low cost. For example, buy a Honda and you get an ECU designed and manufactured by Matsushita Electric Corp (the company behind the Panasonic, Technics brand names) - how much experience of electronics do they have?
IMHO the German brands are being destroyed by 'Anglo-Saxon capitalism". It is what is going to destroy all our lives - SHAREHOLDER VALUE. US-trained MBA's are getting into the German motor companies and cutting costs, outsourcing component supply to Eastern Europe - this started in MB in about '95 and we see the problems coming through now. 'Enough profit' is never 'enough' - they always want to squeeze a little more. The US companies are sick and the German ones are starting to struggle. The Asian companies, with different values, are doing well.
|
the debate above has many generalisations and stereotyping and prejudice in the guise of facts.
as a starting point, it is worth reading
dandoweb.com/e/auto2nd.html
(which incidentally answers one of the questions posed earlier:
"....
Japanese automobile companies, which are launching offensives in North America and China, produced 10 million cars outside Japan in 2005, comparable to the amount manufactured within Japan.
....
The costs of employees' health insurance and pensions for GM are more than twice those of Japanese and European makers, which is a factor in weakening the competency of GM. An enormous number of people, including past employees, rely on the mighty oak that is GM. It is impossible to imagine the extent of the impact on U.S. society if a real crisis occurs. "
... )
it is also worth asking which company is truly majority japanese owned ( not nissan, nor mazda ).
and why the us with its gaz-guzzlers is the world's strongest economy, whereas the trabant and lada producing eastern bloc ex-communists are not.
|
Well, I'm in the industry, seen it and got the T-shirt. I can tell you how many engineers are working in various departments of Honda, Nissan etc. I'll be out working in Japan later this year and talking to some of these guys directly (or rather, through an interpreter!). There's no real secret to making good reliable cars - its down to good engineering, and lots of it.
Health & welfare liabilities may be a problem for GM (mostly due to the 'loony tune' healthcare system in the US) - although of course we are often told that 'social costs' will be the ruin of Europe. GM biggest problem (IMHO) is that is doesn't currently make many truly good cars, so its not selling so many. Maybe if they employed a few more R&D engineers and cut out the outsourcing of critical components to Eastern Europe, Vietnam etc. then they'd raise quality and be doing a little better.
Renault are well known in the industry for having about the lowest component cost, and some of the highest component defect levels (over 10x that of Toyota).......
|
I am always extremely interested in your posts Aprilia, but particularly those in which you describe the inner workings of the car industry.
It is no wonder Honda produce such reliable cars if their ECUs come from a company like Matsushita. I had no idea they were behind Technics,panasonic etc. Like you say, enormous electronice experience. Do you know where companies like Renault or peugeot for example get their ECUs from?
What about things like electric window motors or electrical connectors, do honda or Toyota etc make their own or are they again coming from an outside source? Is this the main reason behind Japanese car reliability?
It is very interesting to find out just how much of a honda or a toyota is actually made by honda or toyota.
Aswell as the reasons behind their huge reliability.
Once again thankyou for your always informative and thought provoking posts.
|
|
Good thread this. Most european manufactures are sourcing there parts from eastern europe, because they are cheap, each component in a car adds up so the pressure is on them to keep the price of each part low. Unfortunately these means that the parts are not as well made so they are more likely to fail. A manufacurer could not care less about this once a car is out of warrantee as it will cost them nothing. Even Mercedes have began using cheaper parts and are getting a poor reputation for relaibility. Also more and more cars these days are using microchips for various functions, ie control box for electric windows to stop window going up if arm in the way. In the past there would have been two wires to and from the battery via a switch. Old approach more reliable, but less safe. I believe cars have become too complex for their own good (see my other thread) and only the japanese seem to have learnt, make a car reliable and charge a bit more, and people will still buy them. European manufactures must learn the hard way, stop buying their cars and buy Jap ones. Lets face it do we really need a safety device for electric windows? Whats wrong with a little common sense.
|
Well I can certainly see why keeping compenent costs down is important but it's not true to say unreliability (post warranty) costs these companies nothing - it costs them a very large market of people who simply won't buy their products because whilst they might very much like some/all of the gadgets, they know full well they're going to cost a small fortune when they go wrong or get broken. The tragedy is that all this spoils what could be very good cars.
What's the cost to Renault, say, of all the negative comment arising from unreliability, overcomplex design and the often hugely expensive repairs which accompany the above?
It's ironic that my 1st car was a Renault yet I can't recall when I even dreamt about buying another. That almost entirely due to things I read here, elsewhere and the things I hear from people who own them.
|
|
|
|
>>>There's no real secret to making good reliable cars - its down to good engineering, and lots of it.>>>
As has already been mentioned the problems from the U.S./German manufacturers has been increasingly influenced by accountants gaining the high ground over the engineers to maximise their short term profits for their share holders with total disregard for their long term reliability and future sales.
The relentless march by the main Japanese companies will be further compounded when Honda launches their Accura range into the U.K. to sell alongside the superb Lexus range from Toyota. One could have included Infiniti from Nissan in this company at one stage, but unfortunately since their recent links with Renault, their former superb reliability record is now becoming somewhat jaded. I don`t think anyone could deny the design flair of the French manufacturers but quality never featured highly in their manufacturing priorities.
|
One does wonder about Nissan/Renault vehicles. If two cars are built off the same platform, but built in different countries under different brands, would the Renault have Nissan levels of reliablilty or the Nissan fall to Renault's level?
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
|
One does wonder about Nissan/Renault vehicles. If two cars are built off the same platform, but built in different countries under different brands, would the Renault have Nissan levels of reliablilty or the Nissan fall to Renault's level?
This is something i'm currently pondering about the New Aygo, C1 and 107. Same car built in the same factory so are the french cars going to be built to Toyota standards or is the toyota going to drop to french standards?
|
According to the magazines, the Aygo/C1/107 are built in a new factory run by Toyota (phew!).
Maybe the most reliable Citroens and Peugeots ever....
This months Car decided that there were better cars out there for the money and criticised the hard ride - a shame given that Cit and Pug should have the best ride possible.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
|
|
|
So are we saying that Renault for example have accepted that they'll put off a large section of their target market to save a few Euro's buy using flimsy plastic master cylinders (or whatever it is the) Espace's suffer from?
Why don't they simply buy the same cheap but well engineered components that the Japanese do or even learn from their past mistakes?
Is it something to do with national pride? Would they feel their cars were less French?
I really would have no problem buying a French car if they were proved to be more reliable. I think some of their stuff is wonderfully innovative but it's all let down badly by the bits that fall off, the parts that break and the fact that to change a dasboard bulb (which shouldn't really go wrong in the first place) you have to virtually dismantle the car! I really just can't understand it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
I can tell you how many engineers are working in various departments of Honda, Nissan etc.
>>
if the japanese are so good at making profits, why did nissan get taken over by renault, mazda by ford, and mitsubishi next in line by whoever ?
was it that their cars were overengineered, and the companies discovered that they could not be run as a charity to car owners?
the truth is that most modern cars, even with all the tons of complicated electronic systems, don't break down as much as the old designs used to. and because they last so well, dealers and garages have had to find ways of making money in inflated routine servicing charges.
|
"the truth is that most modern cars, even with all the tons of complicated electronic systems, don't break down as much as the old designs used to. and because they last so well, dealers and garages have had to find ways of making money in inflated routine servicing charges."
You know I would like to see proof that this is the case. A lot of new cars in particular VWs (polos, fabias, Ibiza) are arguable less reliable than there 80's counterparts due to endless electrical maladies due to excessive complexity in my opinion. I'm not convinced that the problem is being tackled by VW either. Hence I'm no longer buying them.
|
|
|
|
|
"the us with its gaz-guzzlers is the world's strongest economy"
That may be a confusion of cause and effect! Also, the US is only a 'strong economy' on paper, and because the rest of the world can't afford to see it go bankrupt.
|
|
|
|
"US-trained MBA's"
MBA = Master of Blooming All (IMHO)
WRT German manufacturing, at least they've still got some. I heard a German politician interviewed recently on the subject, with particular reference to our lack of it. He regarded it as "an interesting experiment" and thought that other countries would do well to wait and see what happened to the UK economy, before embracing it! The implication seemed to be that we were living on borrowed time...
|
"US-trained MBA's" MBA = Master of Blooming All (IMHO)
I thought MBA stood for "Mediocre But Arrogant"
Many years ago I decided that reliability, followed by residual values were the most important criteria in car choice.
I have stopped buying, or been very wary of buying British, French and italian cars. By that I mean cars designed in those 3 countries. For absolute reliability, I buy Japanese designed cars.
|
|
|
|
|
Every business is a "people business" and risk (whether of poor quality products, errors and fraud in accounts, or general failure of the business to achieve its objectives) comes fron human beings.
In reponse to Avant:-
Yes you are absolutely right.
A very large part of the demise of Rover was due to 30 years of appauling leadership leading to a "couldnt care less" or "that'l do" mentality among the workforce and even the product engineering teams.
Part of the reason that we will never have a successful volume car industry in Britain is due largely to these factors plus a complete lack of respect for anyone in an engineering trade.
Our friends in Germany have a different culture to this both in terms of product and service, ie they look at what is the best way to do it, rather than is it cheap and will it do.
Also, I think their after sales service is better because they have the attitude based upon "how can I do a good job rather than how can I rip this person off !
In summary it is culture and mindset that makes good reliable cars, not 'management speak' and accountancy brilliance !
|
"Our friends in Germany have a different culture to this both in terms of product and service, ie they look at what is the best way to do it, rather than is it cheap and will it do"
Comment: an anlaysis of German WW2 tank production showed that engineering standrads for the Panther tank were very high. The engine could last around 20,000 miles before being rebuilt. In practise most lasted 5-6 months before being destroyed in combat. The production costs were 3-4 times that of the Russian T34/US Sherman and hence German output was far too low.
You can design and build the best car in the world but if no-one can afford to buy it...
Having said that, there is a difference between cost reduction and corner cutting..
madf
|
|
|
>>Part of the reason that we will never have a successful volume car industry in Britain is due largely to these factors plus a complete lack of respect for anyone in an engineering trade.>>
As someone who comes from a family with an engineering pedigree I couldn't disagree with you more on the first part of your comment but, to some extent on the second with reference to more recent years.
Rover aside, we DO have a successful volume car industry in the UK and over many years production figures and exports continually rose thanks to the efforts of those working in the Nissan, Toyota and Honda production plants and associated suppliers.
I've been all round all three plants, including the Sunderland one soon after it first opened - everywhere was spotlessly clean, the staff busy but efficient and friendly and the vehicles produced matched or even bettered equivalents from Japanese factories.
One thing that did surprise me at the time - and something that I first came across through my father, a noted engineer who was a works manager for many years - was that often the best employee recruits were not necessarily from an engineering background.
Aptitude, application and willingness to learn and adapt were all rated exceptionally highly just as much as previous work experience.
Subseqent events in the UK, in which we have gradually but steadily moved to a services economy, proved that flexibility in particular is essential for an employee if regualr employment is desired during a working lifespan.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
|
Like any other product, cars are only as good as the calibre of the staff that the company employs during the course of the product's design, development and production. And that means right up to and including departmental directors, or process owners as they may be now called in some companies. I spent the majority of my working life in automotive product development, and I saw incompetence at all levels. But in the final analysis the blame must lay firmly with the directors. They are the people that have the ultimate power to improve the level of quality of their employees.
--
L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
|
They might appear to disagree, but Stuart and Roly are both right. We do have good, well-trained engineers in this country, but they can only take a pride in their work if they are allowed to. As L'escargot says, this should be down to the directors. Clearly the Japanese bosses allow UK engineers to get it right at Honda, Nissan and Toyota.
The real problem is when directors DON'T have the "ultimate power to improve the quality of their employees". The more powerful the institutional shareholders, the higher the dividend they demand (in fairmess, on behalf of you and me who have our money in such institutions, e.g. pension funds, life insurance, unit trusts). Thus, obviously, there is less of the profit left to plough back into the business, improve pay levels for skilled employees, and develop new products.
This is an over-simplification, but it is a basic truth in far too much of industry, not just in the UK. I don't really know the answer - does anyone? We should look long-term, not short-term - but if you are a fund manager having to deliver income yield AND capital growth for thousands of investors, you may feel you haven't much choice.
This may seem a long way from unreliable cars, but I hope we can all see the connection: that's why these things are called threads, after all!
|
|
|
|
|
|
