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Well, Nowheels, I ask you - for every plumber and electrician that happens to live in London, would you rather have them drive Mitsubishi Warriors, Toyota Hiluxes and Land Rovers or even bigger, thirstier and more aggressively driven LWB Ford Transits?
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Well, Nowheels, I ask you - for every plumber and electrician that happens to live in London, would you rather have them drive Mitsubishi Warriors, Toyota Hiluxes and Land Rovers or even bigger, thirstier and more aggressively driven LWB Ford Transits?
Bit of a red herring -- the overwhelming majority of the 4X4s I see in London are not driven by plumbers and electricians -- they are driven for non-cargo uses by folks who would otherwise have used an ordinary car.
But of those two, it's be the Transit, any day. Less dangerous to other road users -- and maybe thirstier, but only because they have a lot more cargo capacity.
In terms of cargo capacity, a Land-Rover probably offers less than say a Toyota Lite-Ace, which should be the real comparator.
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Just to lower the tone, my uncle's got a Mitshubishi Warrior. Huge car, looks the part and completely unnecessary. Does he care? Nope. Do I care? Nope. Does he like it? Yes. Do I like it? Most definitely.
Can you see where I'm heading with this?
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Adam
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>But of those two, it's be the Transit, any day. Less dangerous >to other road users -- and maybe thirstier, but only because >they have a lot more cargo capacity.
Transit is more dangerous by all accounts - it accelerates faster, doesn't have any rear view, being heavier its braking distance is much longer. It's longer, wider, and if it hits something, having no bonnet at all, it splashes it all over its flat front. Plus it's usually driven in typical white van man manner.
>In terms of cargo capacity, a Land-Rover probably offers less >than say a Toyota Lite-Ace, which should be the real comparator.
Hoever, thanks to suspension and offroad abilities my Hilux Surf can deliver few grand worth of china, bogs and basins in one piece through the fields of humps and speed trenches of Chelsea or pothole ridden Woolwich. On the other hand trying the same in Toyota Lite Ace for 5 days a week would probably be a nightmare and knock every last filling from your teeth in process ...
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Hoever, thanks to suspension and offroad abilities my Hilux Surf can deliver few grand worth of china, bogs and basins in one piece through the fields of humps and speed trenches of Chelsea or pothole ridden Woolwich.
In other words, it allows you to drive around without slowing down for traffic-calming or speed reduction measures. And you wonder why these things are disliked by other road users?
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He doesn't have to slow down if he's not breaking the speed limit surely.
If his Hilux can allow him to travel at the speed limit over these obstacles without slowing down then what's the problem?
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Adam
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Because the humps etc are designed to slow you down. If you are traversing them in something like a low slung sports car or a Yaris, the sight of a large 4x4 charging over them at the speed limit and catching you up must be disconcerting. You know that within a very short space of time your rear vision will consist of the front grill of a 4x4 and nothing else. It's the sort of behavior that gets these vehicles a bad name.
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I take it all back!
Just been to collect children from Sunday morning group and the worst drivers are the mothers in the beaten up Chrysler Voyagers (usually almost new - but still beaten up) which are driven even more aggresively than the Volvo XC90s which are popular here.
I still think that MPVs are far more suitable vehicles that 4x4s for transporting five or more people on regular roads. I just wish that they were produced by the more prestige brands so they could flaunt their wealth without threatening other road uses.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Anyone notice a new trend for the 4x4'ers to *overtake* when you slow down for speed bumps? We have very few speed bumps in my area, but this has happened to me twice now - slow down for speed hump and 4x4 behind swerves out and passes me on the speed hump (I'm not slowing to an absolute crawl either).
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Can't say I've seen this yet - but this week, proceeding in an orderly manner at the speed limit through the village (a modest road with bends, not a dual carriageway) I was overtaken consecutively by a Honda Civic Type R (screaming flat out as it passed) and a BMW 330D. This is clear, statistically incontrovertible proof that drivers of these vehicles are far more dangerous than drivers of Discoverys (one of which continued to stay behind through the 30 limit).
There's an awful lot of confirmation bias here - once you've decided that toast always lands butter-side down, or that your queue always moves more slowly in the supermarket, you are likely to find observations that fit your theory all the time and rather ignore the rest. This has led among other things to the burning of "witches" and genocide.
Oh no, I fallen for it again...
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Can't say I've seen this yet - but this week, proceeding in an orderly manner at the speed limit through the village (a modest road with bends, not a dual carriageway) I was overtaken consecutively by a Honda Civic Type R (screaming flat out as it passed) and a BMW 330D. This is clear, statistically incontrovertible proof that drivers of these vehicles are far more dangerous than drivers of Discoverys (one of which continued to stay behind through the 30 limit). There's an awful lot of confirmation bias here - once you've decided that toast always lands butter-side down, or that your queue always moves more slowly in the supermarket, you are likely to find observations that fit your theory all the time and rather ignore the rest. This has led among other things to the burning of "witches" and genocide. Oh no, I fallen for it again...
If that's how you choose to interpret my post.....
In the best part of thirty years driving I've only been overtaken on a speed bump twice - and both times it was by a large 4x4 - and happened quite recently.
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>Anyone notice a new trend for the 4x4'ers to *overtake* when you slow down for speed bumps?
Has been going on around my way for over a year now.In many cases only just enough room for the overtake..In one instance I lost driver door mirror ie knocked off.Annoying to say the least!
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Steve
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I live in Redbridge which has high ownership of 4X4's. Can't say I have seen any overtaking on residential streets to get past cars going slowly over speed cushions. The only thing I have noticed is that the drivers are more likely to park in the disabled spaces at Sainsbury/Tesco (no disc in the windscreen) and are most likely to have a female with a phone clamped to her ear whiulst driving.
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They park in disabled and mother and child bays because regular bays in supermarkets are still made to Austin Metro size. If they parked in single bay and knocked your off when opening doors you would moan, if they parked across two single spaces you would moan, if they park in disabled or mother and child spaces you will moan (may I add righfuly so). Mind you, it's never a problem in CostCo, which uses yankee spacing for they angled parking bays...
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Costco is the best, bar none for car parking. I realise I'm going to talk about parking bays but I don't care!
Each bay is divided up not by 1 line, but two to form the shape of a long running track so even if you are the worst parker in the world and park on the line, there is still plenty of room to open your door....unless of course you park on the outer line!
As vOn says, you could park a Dodge Ram in there and have plenty of room to load your 500 boxes of Mars Bars into the car.
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Adam
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Here we go again - 4X4 bashing. How much more of this drivel do we have to put up with? I drive a Range Rover and I couldn't care less if other motorists don't like it. I try to drive in a considerate manner at all times. This continual pigeon holing and generalisation of groups of drivers is infuriating me and no doubt many others. I enjoy participating in the Backroom, but this ignorant bias is turning me off.
Finally, if councils want drivers to slow down, reclassify the road and stop installing suspension and steering wrecking speed humps. Quite apart from my off roading activities one of the reasons I drive a Rangie is because of the disgusting state of the roads in this country. I'm fed up with repairing expensive damage to my vehicles.
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\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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Well said v8man.
Speed humps are a menace to those who need to get through in a hurry.
WTM.
BTW, there are so many wind up merchants running things these days, you'd think they all want us to drive clockwork cars!
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Women drive big 4x4's to look in and check out men - is there a beer gut, what's the lunch box like?
If you see one on the phone at the same time - don't carp - congratulate yourself! All girls share exciting news with friends.
If she's driving aggressively it's because she doesn't want to let out out of her sight!
Suggest next time you see a woman in a big 4x4 with a phone clamped to her ear - leap out of your car and moon at her. All women want a man with a nice butt and it's the only thing we can't check out whilst you're sitting on it :-) !!!!!
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I must have smoked something very odd tonight.
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Are you flir'n pet?
Or just after my lunch?
I have a really nice butt - fed directly from the downpipe at the back.
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-Women drive big 4x4's to look in and check out men - is there a beer gut, what's the lunch box like? -
Well mine is Tupperware with a Scotch Egg in it.....
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They park in disabled and mother and child bays because regular bays in supermarkets are still made to Austin Metro size.
buy an outsized car which is completely inappropriate for urban use, and then when it doesn't fit in ordinary spaces (surprise, surprise!) squeeze out disabled people. And 4X4 drivers wonder why they get called rude names?
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For the most part, perhaps. But my car doesn't fit in car parks A, B and C at Uni. (The car touches both lines)
Although now that you mention it, I do get called rude names from random people...
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Adam
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"do get called rude names from random people"
RF isn't random...
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Haha.
He's random with his insults though!
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Adam
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"do get called rude names from random people" RF isn't random...
Only to people who deserve it. And Adam is such a deserving case......
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Aww shucks. You're making me blush now!
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Adam
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They park in disabled and mother and child bays because regular bays in supermarkets are still made to Austin Metro size. If they parked in single bay and knocked your off when opening doors you would moan, if they parked across two single spaces you would moan, if they park in disabled or mother and child spaces you will moan (may I add righfuly so). Mind you, it's never a problem in CostCo, which uses yankee spacing for they angled parking bays...
Hmm.. The breakdown truck I sometimes drive doesn't fit in the supermarket parking bays either. I never thought to park it in the disabled or mother-and-child bays though (silly me!) I just park it at the 'far reaches' of the car park with an empty bay each side and walk the extra distance...
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I just park it at the 'far reaches' of the car park with an empty bay each side and walk the extra distance...
And me too when driving the 5. The Landie is a different matter though, I park that as close to the store as possible. Its mere presence tends to get adrenalin running in certain types of people.
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>I never thought to park it in the disabled or mother-and-child
>bays though (silly me!) I just park it at the 'far reaches' of
>the car park with an empty bay each side and walk the extra
>distance...
I never park in disabled or mother-and-child bays either, I park across two parking spaces. Used to live in East London, and taught by Isle Of Dogs ASDA parking savoir vivre I never ever park on far reaches of the carparks where noone can hear my car screaming for help while being broken into.
Try this and see if I'm right - it's never dude's seventies Defender parked in disabled space, it's always Cayene, X5 or girl's Freelander... Never the less, given CostCo example, it's easy to sort out by supermarket if only they wanted to.
> buy an outsized car which is completely inappropriate for urban
> use, and then when it doesn't fit in ordinary spaces (surprise,
> surprise!) squeeze out disabled people. And 4X4 drivers wonder
> why they get called rude names?
As usual NoWheels goes on charging into crowd armed with nothing but motoring myths. Nineties version Range Rover, which is the most common 4x4's in urban jungle is 4,71m long and 1,88m wide. Which makes it shorter than Ford Mondeo or Rover 75 and narrower than Fiat Multipla or Renault Grand Espace. It's not only 4x4's that don't fit into bays, the difference is - someone who paid 30 or 40 grand for Land Rover is gonna park it far away from you and someone in their leased "it's not mine what do I care" repmobile or battered L reg kindergarten-on-wheels Previa will just squeeze in and slam their door into your car.
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Ooooooohhh!!!!!
(Clutches handbag......)
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As usual NoWheels goes on charging into crowd armed with nothing but motoring myths.
Actually, I responded to your own statement that the problem was that parking bays were too small.
Metro-sized cars are still available for those who want to be able to park easily. As land prices skyrocket, I doubt we are going to see parking spaces getting bigger -- bigger spaces means fewer of them.
It's not only 4x4's that don't fit into bays, the difference is - someone who paid 30 or 40 grand for Land Rover is gonna park it far away from you and someone in their leased "it's not mine what do I care" repmobile or battered L reg kindergarten-on-wheels Previa will just squeeze in and slam their door into your car.
Ah, right. It's not just that the cars are too big.
What you are saying is that drivers of expensive 4X4s feel that having spent so much money on their huge and highly-polished status symbols, they have a right to squeeze out the disabled people.
I'm sure that disabled folks will be greatly cheered to know that the reason their difficult lives are being made more dificult is because some folks think it's more important to avoid scratches to their expensive SAVs.
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>What you are saying is that drivers of expensive 4X4s feel that
>having spent so much money on their huge and highly-polished
>status symbols, they have a right to squeeze out the disabled
>people.
It's not a cartoon, people don't turn into saints or evil scrooges the moment they jump into some specific type of car. If you ban SUVs and force the owners to opt for BMW 7 series or Chrysler Voyagers, do you think their driving will be better? Do you think they won't camp park around school gates in worst possible style? Do you think they will all of a sudden park 2 meter wide Volvos in Fiesta sized spaces in supermarkets and won't chase your tail lights in bulbarred Transits?
Cars get bigger every year, todays Fiesta is of a size of old Escort,new Astra is almost as big as first Vectra, Almera is bigger than first Primera. MPVs grow, the safer, the bigger, the more space they take. And as long as this world remains in one piece cars will always be driven badly by some people, they will be driven agressively by others, they will be parked without consideration and they will be bought unneccessarily as a status token. If you can't get used to it then living in modern society is not for you.
>I'm sure that disabled folks will be greatly cheered to know
>that the reason their difficult lives are being made more
>dificult is because some folks think it's more important to
>avoid scratches to their expensive SAVs.
Like I said - all supermarkets have to do is change angle and size of the bays, and there will be no problem. As long as there are empty "far reaches" of carparks there is hope and way to improve things.
But it doesn't really matter what I say, you will always turn it around in you delusioned, angry way. Things that don't fit in your imaginary perfect world will always make you see them in the light that fits your propaganda, even if standing there alone, waving "You are all pink fluffy dice" flag doesn't really make any difference to anyone and can't change anything around you..
In your eyes there will always be imaginary chains of disabled motorists driving around carparks desperately searching for space to anchor their vehicles all because bad, ugly at heart SUV owners parked in their 50 clearly marked spaces. You will always see speed bumps as sweet revenge on imaginary Range Rover racers speeding away through small streets of Fulham, but will never think of women in labour and patients with bursting appendixes inside ambulances wobblying their way out through endless speed bumps or fire trucks driving 5 miles around too narrow speed gates. You will always prefer agenda over reality and ideological battles over common sense. And all that because in your bizzarre philosophy people that don't need something, especially if it's something you don't like, should be stripped of it or live in misery.
People drive large cars, and even if it's for no reason, it's their right to do so. Noone can tell you that you don't need 2 bedroom house if you live alone, or that you don't need nice clothes if you don't go out on Friday nights anymore. And you shouldn't feel that you can tell anyone what to buy, how to use it and whether they need it at all.
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Hear hear!
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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You will always prefer agenda over reality and ideological battles over common sense.
I guess we'll have to differ on what constitutes common sense. If your idea of "common sense" doesn't extend to accepting that it's a bad idea for abled-bodied folks to use disabled parking bays, I guess we'll just have to agree to differ.
And all that because in your bizzarre philosophy people that don't need something, especially if it's something you don't like, should be stripped of it or live in misery.
I didn't argue for folks to be stripped of their vehicles -- but I do think it's time for further constraints on their use. That's not because I don't like them -- but because of their adverse impact on others. You may find that a bizarre philosophy, but you'll find it underpins a huge number of the laws which govern any modern society.
But I don't see how restrictions on the use of a 4X4 would condemn an urban driver to misery (as you suggest), or even cause them an inconvience remotely as great as the inconvenience which might be caused to a disabled person when the disabled parking bays have all been taken.
I do accept that you don't use those spaces -- I'm just taking issue with your defence of those who do.
People drive large cars, and even if it's for no reason, it's their right to do so.
Actually, we were mostly discussing how they drive them.
But nobody has a "right" to drive any sort of vehicle. Drivers and vehicles are controlled by lots of restrictions on what vehicles may be used, by whom, and when. Some vehicles and some forms of usage are permitted, and some are not ... but when particular types are seen to cause particular problems, then restrictions may be imposed.
Patently asked "do you really think that people ranting about 4x4s being irresponsible is going to make me think twice?". No -- I'd like to think that a dialogue like this might help, but I really doubt it. If I really wanted to change things, I'd start campaigning rather discussing things here -- I'm mostly interested in exploring how folks see things, and how they respond to a different view. It's fascinating, and I learn a lot.
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What you are saying is.....
Now I've a suggestion to make. NW, how about you refrain from using that phrase for a couple of weeks?
I mention it as it's rare indeed that what follows has anything to do with the content of the original post. What normally happens is that you put your own agenda-driven slant on it and launch off on one.
Do try not to. It's getting quite tiresome.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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>> What you are saying is..... Now I've a suggestion to make. NW, how about you refrain from using that phrase for a couple of weeks?
Try a forum search for that phrase against my username. It'll show precisely one use of that phrase: the one you quoted. I'll happily refrain from using it again.
I mention it as it's rare indeed that what follows has anything to do with the content of the original post. What normally happens is that you put your own agenda-driven slant on it and launch off on one.
I know you happen to disagree with me, but before yoy accuse me putting "an agenda-driven slant on it", I suggest you re-read v0n's post atwww.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=31032&...=
e
particularly the bit where he says "Try this and see if I'm right - it's never dude's seventies Defender parked in disabled space, it's always Cayene, X5 or girl's Freelander" and goes on to say "someone who paid 30 or 40 grand for Land Rover is gonna park it far away from you and someone in their leased "it's not mine what do I care" repmobile or battered L reg kindergarten-on-wheels Previa will just squeeze in and slam their door into your car".
v0n's reply is a classic, though -- particularly his bit about "imaginary chains of disabled motorists" looking for somewhere to park, because the disabled spaces have been taken. Disabled folks will just love the suggestion that they are imaginary, or that disabled parking spaces have been created to cope with an imaginary need.
vOn clearly says that he doesn't park in disabled bays, which is great -- but he was trying to justify others doing so, and that was what I responded to.
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Disabled folks will just love the suggestion that they are imaginary
?
I think the quote says that the claims are imaginary, not the disabled motorists...
[/pedant]
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vOn clearly says that he doesn't park in disabled bays, which is great -- but he was trying to justify others doing so, and that was what I responded to.
Hmm... I think the word 'justify' might be a little strong there. It suggests some agreement with their decision on his part. I think all he did was try to explain their actions, he made no claim that they were correct to do it.
Incidentally, Congletons main supermarket was a Safeway, which has recently been re-branded to a Morrisons. They've done various bits of work to the store which involved temporarily reducing the number of parking spaces in their car-park so the contractors could park/work there. At the same time as this they more than doubled the number of disabled spaces, vastly reducing the number of normal spaces. Now I have NEVER seen all of the original disabled spaces being used (which doesn't sound a conclusive claim, except I did work at the store for 3 years as a youth), so why they thought doubling the number was necessary I do not know.
Now - I could now point out that by doing this, and so reducing normal spaces they have almost worked to encourage people to abuse the disabled spaces. That doesn't mean that I think the abusers are right to do so.
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>> >> What you are saying is..... >> >> Now I've a suggestion to make. NW, how about you refrain >> from using that phrase for a couple of weeks? Try a forum search for that phrase against my username. It'll show precisely one use of that phrase: the one you quoted. I'll happily refrain from using it again.
:-)
Despite what you may think, I rather admire you and your posts. Notwithstanding, you do have a bit of a habit of misrepresenting the posts of other contributors or, more often, completing their argument on their behalf to your own end.
So apologies for my tardiness. I can only beg forgiveness on the grounds that Southwest trains laid on inappropriate rolling stock for the 0500 from Poole this morning and I was alternating my moderating and my abusive email to SWT.....
Yes, that's public transport, although I do insist on travelling first class.
(That has to lay me open to Alfa abuse)
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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So apologies for my tardiness.
No prob, and thanks for replying.
I can only beg forgiveness on the grounds that Southwest trains laid on inappropriate rolling stock for the 0500 from Poole this morning and I was alternating my moderating and my abusive email to SWT.....
Oh no, they didn't lay on an Alfa train, did they? Give 'em hell! ;-)
Yes, that's public transport, although I do insist on travelling first class.
Me too, if someone else is paying! :)
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> They park in disabled and mother and child bays because regular bays in supermarkets are still made to Austin Metro size<
Er....I don't think so! There is no reason why you cannot park an X5 etc in a standard Tesco/Sainsbury space. I can fit my Forester in one. I have seen many E class mercs and Transit vans in spaces and they are just as wide. It is complete baloney to say they can't. If they can't, it's because they are crap drivers or are too busy on the phone!
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Maybe you shop in different branches of the said supermarkets and it's not just about whether the car will fit between the lines, in my local ASDA at High Wycombe there are some groups of spaces where you cnnot get out of the car if you are properly parked between two other properly parked but large cars.
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>>Maybe you shop in different branches of the said supermarkets and it's not just about whether the car will fit between the lines, in my local ASDA at High Wycombe there are some groups of spaces where you cnnot get out of the car if you are properly parked between two other properly parked but large cars.
I agree.And I use different stores all the time.Parking seems to be the same everywhere
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Steve
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>Maybe you shop in different branches of the said supermarkets and it's not just about whether the car will fit between the lines, in my local ASDA at High Wycombe there are some groups of spaces where you cnnot get out of the car if you are properly parked between two other properly parked but large cars.
The same can be said of Bridge Street car park in High Wycombe too!!!
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Its not what you drive, its how you drive it! :-)
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There is no reason why you cannot park an X5 etc in a standard Tesco/Sainsbury space.
I've never found that to be a problem, either. Nor does Mrs P.
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Anyone notice a new trend for the 4x4'ers to *overtake* when you slow down for speed bumps? We have very few speed bumps in my area, but this has happened to me twice now - slow down for speed hump and 4x4 behind swerves out and passes me on the speed hump (I'm not slowing to an absolute crawl either).
I think this behaviour is more to do with the type of driver, rather than the type of vehicle - I was in my Landcruiser on Friday afternoon when a young "lady" in her Corsa overtook me on a speed bump...and no, I wasn't at an absolute crawl either!
I've been overtaken on speed bumps several times regardless of which car I'm driving at the time.
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