The thing is, with this you can cause a problem without even blockading the tankers.
Suppose your fuel-strike group "announces" a strike will take place three days from now. Everyone (and I mean everyone) will take their cars, containers, kettles, etc to the petrol stations and bleed them dry.
Net result: no fuel, stations closed and the odd one open selling at £2/litre.
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Someone has been paying attention.
This morning a group of farmers and small haulage contractors have set off on a go-slow from Fawley refinery, up to Cadnam and then on along the A31 to Ringwood and back. This is by way of a protest at the price of fuel.
This follows on from yesterday's action outside a refinery in Cheshire.
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I don't think anyone would mind the price of fuel as much if we actually got some spending back from that 80% (plus road tax and countless hidden motoring taxes).
But what do we actually get? Terrible public transport and no development of our crumbling road system. The amount of revenue raised by motorists should result in the best public transport system in Europe, with roads being the alternative option.
In 20 years time (or so!) we'll all be driving non-petrol cars, so the revenue will probably come from road tolls instead, but I bet the situation doesn't change, all governments realise motorists are a giant piggy bank who will pay through the nose for their 'freedom'!
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Given the low fuel prices paid by farmers, I can't quite fathom their high profile in this???
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>>small cars. Why?
>>efficient cars. Why?
>>people think about making a journey. Why should they?
>>industrial R and D is focused on efficiency. Not required.
>>the drive for efficiency never falls away. Not required.
>>pollution is reduced So you leave the city!
>>public transport comes under middle class pressure - What a laugh! I'd never be seen dead on public transport.
Meditek, please tell me you were just playing devil's advocate by posting these comments!
Surely you must appreciate that oil is not a finite resource, and therefore smaller and more efficient cars ARE necessary! If the whole world followed the "large cars/cheap fuel/drive everywhere" model like the US, we'd be in a whole lot of climate change trouble before very long.
If fuel taxes have to be used as a means of adjustting attitudes to the world's natural resources, then so be it.
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People always seem to miss the obvious when wondering how to get people out of their cars.
If there was a free bus right outside my house I'd probably still use my car. Why?
I've paid to buy it, I've paid to tax it, I've paid to MOT it, I've paid a four figure sum to insure it, and I enjoy driving it.
So why would I want to leave it in the garage all the time?
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I don't think anyone would mind the price of fuel as much if we actually got some spending back from that 80% (plus road tax and countless hidden motoring taxes). But what do we actually get? Terrible public transport and no development of our crumbling road system. The amount of revenue raised by motorists should result in the best public transport system in Europe, with roads being the alternative option.
It comes down to what you want taxed. If you didn't have high fuel tax then income tax would go up or VAT or something else. you say that you don't see the money coming back, and to a certain degree i accept this, but what do you think pays for the NHS, war in Iraq, education, social security payments etc etc etc.
A lot of people think that while the tax is high it is quite fair in the respect that the more you drive the more you pay in tax (although it is a regressive taxation).
I am afraid that we cannot have it both ways and in order to run the country tax has to be raised - I think last year it was a total of £426 billion (hmmmm, just think of all those banks and oil companies that make billions in profit....).
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Yes but..
The tax take goes up year after year after year. It does not go up in line with inflation/earnings, it goes up much higher than that. As a percentage of GDP the Government is taking an ever bigger share of everybody's money. We weem to accept this as inevitable, and as soon as anyone complains, the old "schools n hospitals" line is thrown back at us.
Many argue that if tax is lowered on fuel, it will have to go up on something else. This is only true is we are prepared to accept the government spending has to stay as high as it is now.
I am in favour of any tax protest, whether it be fuel, income tax, stamp duty or whatever. If any of the main 3 parties were giving us any real option to vote for smaller, less intrusive, and less expensive government it would be different, but they are not.
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I agree with many of the comments made regarding the overall tax burden in this country, but I do think the concern over fuel duty is exaggerated.
10k miles a year costs roughly £1000 a year(assuming 39mpg and 86p/litre). So if fuel costs go up by 5%, the additional cost to you is £50.
Servicing, MOT, depreciation (the biggest cost), insurance and road tax are likely to come to at least £3000 a year on anything remotely new for a young-ish driver such as myself.
The point I'm trying to make is that (for an average mileage driver) fuel costs are a relatively small proportion of total running costs, and perhaps we shouldn't get so wound up about them...
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10k miles a year costs roughly £1000 a year(assuming 39mpg and 86p/litre). So if fuel costs go up by 5%, the additional cost to you is £50.
Now lets turn that on its head and say that 10,000 miles costs you £200 and a further £800 to the tax man. So why the heck does he want another £50? Hasn't he enough already?
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Now lets turn that on its head and say that 10,000 miles costs you £200 and a further £800 to the tax man. So why the heck does he want another £50? Hasn't he enough already?
No, he hasn't.
After decades of underinvestment, most of the infrastructure of this country is in very bad shape. Rebuilding it costs money, big money.
The bonanza of North-Sea Oil revenue was wasted on the huge bills arising from the forced de-industrialisation policies of the early 1980s and the early-90s hnagove from the late 80s-bubble economy ... and now corporation tax has been cut back massively. So the only place for the funds to come from is from individuals.
The overall real cost of motoring has remained static, or fallen, over the last 15 years, while the cost of public transport has spiralled since privatisation of services. Remember how, for example, the 10% purchase tax on new cars was abolished in the early 90s?
That extra few quid on your fuel bill still leaves you with a much cushier deal than the bus or train user. So count yourself lucky :)
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The government must have spending plans. They need to finance those plans. They therefore set taxation levels.
When the cost of fuel goes up, or haulage as a result, extra tax is collected automatically. IF the taxation level has been set correctly then the government is now automatically collecting tax over and above what it needs. Why?
Most of us accept that taxation is needed for schools/police/hospitals etc, but I for one object to the way this government wastes it with useless quangoes, "initiatives", "targets" etc.
I buy cars under 5k.
I usually keep them for 6/8 years.
I usually sell for about £500.
Depreciation is therefore about £600/year.
Insurance £300
tax/mot/servicing etc £300
total £1200
Fuel 9000 miles at 30/gall about £1100.
To me it is not insignificant.
I will choose what I drive.
Public transport? round here? More chance of harnessing a runaway horse!
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IF the taxation level has been set correctly then the government is now automatically collecting tax over and above what it needs. Why?
Predicting tax rates is not an exact science: there are a lot of variables involved. In any given year, the take on some taxes may exceed estimates, but take on others will be lower than foreseen.
In any case, while increased fuel prices will lead to some increase in the tax take per litre, but increased prices also lead to some degree of reduced consumption. So if the tax take per lite remained constant as prices rose at the pumps, the total tax take would fall.
Doing the sums (see below), I suspect that the treasury doesn't actually see much gain from rising prices.
The duty on petrol is set per litre; only the VAT at 17.5% is price-related. So if pump prices rise by 10p, the tax take incresaes by only 1.175p. That's a 12% rise in overall price, causing a rise of just over 2% in the total tax take.
So all that's needed for any treasury gain per litre to be wiped out by falling consumption is for that 12% rise in pump prices to cause a 2% drop in consumption -- and I suspect that's quite likely. It's the equivalent of a 10,000 mile-per-year driver doing 200 miles less.
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People who drive cars that do 25 mpg can always swap them for ones that do 50! I went from using a 19mpg to a 53mpg car for my commute to work, so I speak from experience! I must have saved about £3000 in fuel over the last few years, more than the current car cost me. Fuel costs are not high for private motorists with sensible cars. It's a different matter for hauliers, they are the ones who feel the pinch.
However farmers seem to be the driving force behind fuel protests and they use cheap, untaxed red diesel in their agricutural vehicles. Surely the weekly trip to market in a Defender towing an overloaded livestock trailer with duff indicators isn't affected much by a few pence on fuel tax!
Cheers, SS
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No, he hasn't.
Yes he has. Quite enough.
And it's about time it reduced. Long overdue, in fact.
And you will not (NOT) persuade me to think differently on this point, because as a self-employed person I see the tax system in its full, glorious, mean, intrusive, suspicious inglory.
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as a self-employed person I see the tax system in its full, glorious, mean, intrusive, suspicious inglory.
To put that differently, I didn't automatically hate and mistrust them, until it became blindingly obvious that they hated and mistrusted me.
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>>And you will not (NOT) persuade me to think differently on this point, because as a self-employed person I see the tax system in its full, glorious, mean, intrusive, suspicious inglory.
I am self-employed too. The worst thing about personal taxation is that it's too complicated. Class 4 National Insurance contribs. have skyrocketed for us self-employed over the last few years, a hidden tax increase that the PAYE majority don't know about. Income tax and NI contribs should be merged into one system.
Nobody likes coughing up to pay tax, but I don't mind paying it. I'm self-employed but my child goes to a state school and my wife earns a good salary working in the public sector. Swings and roundabouts!
I see motoring taxes and how they're spent as a separate issue.
Cheers, SS
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Nobody likes coughing up to pay tax, but I don't mind paying it.
Within limits, yes of course. Taxation is necessary, since some level of government activity is necessary. But not to this extent.
What upsets me is that the complexity is there "to close loopholes" - i.e. because they don't trust us. We are dealt with as if we are all fraudsters until proven otherwise beyond reasonable doubt. And then they wonder why they are resented by the honest...
I'm self-employed but my child goes to a state school and my wife earns a good salary working in the public sector. Swings and roundabouts!
I'm very pleased for you. The same could not be said for us.
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>>I'm very pleased for you. The same could not be said for us.
I feel guilty now! Don't feel too pleased for me as my workload, hence income, has fallen off sharply of late. It's dependent on (but directly involved in) the property industry, which is on a downturn. I didn't intend to imply my wife earns a huge income although we could survive on that alone if neccessary.
cheers, SS
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I feel guilty now!
No worries, SS - we made our choices. We still think they're right, even if HMG decides to penalise us for them.
my workload, hence income, has fallen off sharply of late. It's dependent on (but directly involved in) the property industry, which is on a downturn.
Best wishes for an upturn. In property, at least you can have some confidence that there will be one...?
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What upsets me is that the complexity is there "to close loopholes" - i.e. because they don't trust us.
I don't like the way that tax people can be appallingly heavy-handed, but given that there are armies of accoiuntants making a fine living out of exploiting any loopholes, the system has two choices: get tough about closing them, or allow a system to develop whereby self-employed folks who are doing well enough to employ fancy accountants can end up paying a lot less tax than equally hard-working and simlarly-remunerated folks who are in the PAYE system.
(I'm not suggesting that you are a tax-avoidance addict, rather that self-employed folk like you and me are the victims of a situation created by some self-employed folk).
But the question of how heavy-handed tax collectors can be is a separate one to tax levels. I can't see that tax-collectors aiming for 35% of GDP would need a different modus operandi to those currently seeking a 40% take.
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get tough about closing them, or allow a system to develop whereby self-employed folks who are doing well enough to employ fancy accountants can end up paying a lot less tax than equally hard-working and simlarly-remunerated folks who are in the PAYE system.
That's as maybe, but it is still insulting.
But ... why do we have a tax avoidance industry? When did it come into being with a vengeance? Hmmm.
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Someone has been paying attention. This morning a group of farmers and small haulage contractors have set off on a go-slow from Fawley refinery, up to Cadnam and then on along the A31 to Ringwood and back. This is by way of a protest at the price of fuel.
And it was a bit pointless really. They managed to gather less than a dozen vehicles, and caused barely any disruption to traffic. The hauliers were filmed talking to a representative from Fawley. They said: "Please reduce prices or join with us in our protest" and the bloke from Fawley said: "No, sorry, can't do that".
So they gave up and went home.
Ok they managed to get their little protest onto the local news but even the tone of that was slightly mocking because they hadn't managed to achieve anything.
Btw, the farmers are involved because, apparently, the price of their cheap diesel has gone up too.
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Its not the fuel prices im bothered about its the fact we've paid over £14,000 in the last 3 years in stamp duty!! I don't even see what its for, at least you can put fuel tax down to the fact it has to travel a long way to get here and one day it will run out. The country should all stop buying houses and moving for a few years, that will hit barmy blair harder than a small bunch of farmers driving slowly!!
And while im at it, what about council tax? There are two of us in my house, we pay the same as the guy living next door but there are 5 people in his house, 2 of which are still at school and one is at uni, they create a ton more rubbish than us and use the countrys resources more than we do, but still we pay the same!
The lieing lib dem mp that came and knocked the other day told me council tax will be reduced, yeah maybe if i age by 50 years or give up my job, join the dole queue and have at least 5 kids.
Basically we can moan all we like, (and i sure can moan) but nothing will change, someway or another we will be taxed whether we like it or not. Each time I listen to the news lately I hear another CRAZY tax or benefit some political party wants to bring in. It would be nice to live in a world where you didn't have to pay to use a car on the road or pay to buy a new house or pay to get your rubbish collected but it wouldnt be the real world, we should learn to deal with it.
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I have just been working with a guy who comes from america. He states that if fuel prices start to go up to steeply then drivers start to boycot fuel stations. Why do not do somthing like this over here. For example the big three Esso, BP and Jet.
We want price at 65 pence a litre. Then if we boycot Esso and BP until there prices come down to 65 pence a litre and only use Jet, this gives the control back to the driver and will have the big 3 running to the goverment to sort out the tax on the fuel and takes the problem away from us.
Is the workable?
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why?
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This one is an old one and appears about every 6 months. If you search on "esso" and "boycott" you'll find all the other references.
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why?
Why would ESSO etc want to sell their fuel in the UK at a much lower price than they could get elsewhere in the world?
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NoWheels - am I much mistaken, or are you beginning to pick up the basics of a market economy?
;-)
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NoWheels - am I much mistaken, or are you beginning to pick up the basics of a market economy?
know thine enemy, tovarisch ;-)
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