Back in the seventies the common perception was that the woes of British industry were caused primarily by the bolshy workers. The runaway success of Japanese car companies in the UK (employing those bolshy workers or their offspring) proves how wrong that view was.
British manufacturing has been all but destroyed by the combination of low-calibre management and ill-advised government policies over many years. Up the workers!
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The runaway success of Japanese car companies in the UK demonstrates the importance of one of the major bargaining points that the Japanese car companies insisted on when negotiating with the UK government...
That they wouldn't have to bow to the unions, and that the government would back them if it came down to a confrontation.
When the Swindon and Sunderland plants were set up, the Japanese management made it very clear to anyone wanting a job that the unions would never be allowed to control the place. And they don't. Workers work, managers manage. Works a treat.
British manufacturing has been destroyed by the fact that the minimum wage is now £5.05 per hour, and our skills are poor. Companies simply set up in Eastern Europe (or similar) where the wages are half those of the UK and the skills are better. The loss of manufacturing has little or nothing to do with management - if the economic principles on which a company is run are flawed (high costs, poor product) then the best management in the world can't save it.
I won't attempt to disguise my anti-union sentiments, just as AlanGowdy didn't disguise his pro-union sentiments. The reason for my opinion is that I view my skills and negotiating abilities as good. I can get what I require/deserve from my employer without joining a large organisation that attempts to hold the company to ransom over its demands.
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back to the point
why do SAIC want to buy rover?
becasue buying rover which is a very moderate player in car terms, you are purchasing an understanding of the car industry and a badge which still can hold its own.
even if it costs you a few billion in the process and you have to remove say 4000 of the workforce, it is still more viable to use people with R&D experience, than spend years losing out on potential market share building up your own company.
What bugs me is this.
When the citreon xsara hit its later life 52/03 plate - citreon realised they where selling a dated car and the price came down to tempt buyers with kit levels increasing.
when ford was coming to the final face lift of the old fiesta, prices where significantly reduced to keep peoples interest.
But rover - with the 45 over 10 years old (most of it) , the 25 not far behind - how come they still request prices of equivelent sized vehicles.
e.g., cheapest rover 25 you can pick up for £6,500 for a 1.1 3 door with very little spec.
where you can pick up a 5 door new chassis fiesta 5 door lx for 6 grand flat with far more spec.
which one would you rather have?
and that isnt all.
the fiesta is more reliable, nicer to drive, more space and looks better (in my opinion).
surely rovers best stratergy, and the last bolster to its 3,000 staff its going to have to lose is to give them work for the next 2 years by giving thier cars radical price cuts. I welcome the fact they are giving cars wallnut dash inserts and leather as standard.
but the prices must come down to be competitive.
Rover COULD sell 200,000 vehicles this year - if they priced the cars according to their real value.
Buying a new 75 for 11k new is very fair - and seems to be the exception to the rule, infact seems an absolute bargain.
but - i cant find anywhere a new 45 less than £8,5k
cant find a 5 door 25 for less than £6.8k
the 1.4 rover 45 should be priced at a list of £8995 - with real life prices matching them of the almera of just below £7 grand for 5 door.
the 1.4 5 door 25 should be having a list of £7 grand - with real life prices ducking below £6 grand.
this is the only way they will shift these cars.
and the mad thing, i would still buy a new 5 door 25 tommorrow if it had the leather and extra bit of kit - but i could not forgive myself for paying more than £6 grand for it.
anyhow - if i dont find one soon, i may have to take up my local daihatsu dealer whos offering me a brand new sirion when it comes out at 1.0 £6,100 or 1.3 at £6,700 flat. - now thats a bargain!
anyhow, rant over.
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Davey,
I agree completely - problem with the rover line-up at the moment is that it's overpriced, they're cars although a little old aren't completely dreadful - if they priced they more competitively they'd certainly shift a few more.
Graham,
British industry has become so uncompetitive because management realised that we couldn't compete on labour costs etc & just gave up.
If we had invested in more technology & trained our workforce to higher skill levels we wouldn't have lost as much industry as we have. As a developed nation we must use our technological advancement to the full to see off competition - look at Airbus again, the level of investment in both skills training & technology is immense.
Historically the british have been at the bottom (or damn close) of Europe regarding investment, in both training & technology. Agree that the unions in the 70's/ 80's were far too powerful & caused major problems for the country.
Those days are long gone now though & many companies now encourage their staff to join a union. Unions play an important part in employee welfare/health & safety etc. Your very lucky to work for a company that seems to be well organised & fair - many others are not & rely on the unions to bring some sort of balance.
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British manufacturing has been destroyed by the fact that the minimum wage is now £5.05 per hour, and our skills are poor. Companies simply set up in Eastern Europe (or similar) where the wages are half those of the UK and the skills are better. The loss of manufacturing has little or nothing to do with management - if the economic principles on which a company is run are flawed (high costs, poor product) then the best management in the world can't save it. I won't attempt to disguise my anti-union sentiments, just as AlanGowdy didn't disguise his pro-union sentiments. The reason for my opinion is that I view my skills and negotiating abilities as good. I can get what I require/deserve from my employer without joining a large organisation that attempts to hold the company to ransom over its demands.
Would you work for East European wages and accept East European standards of living? I don't think so. People joined unions because they didn't have the right negotiating skills themselves (the same reason people employ solicitors and barristers, when needed). Please don't tar every union with the same brush, as the lot of the average person was made considerably better by union representation in many cases. Back in the 'good old days', life was actually very poor for millions of people.
What kind of standard of living do you think that £2.50 per hour would provide in this country?
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Not so much pro-union GrahamF1 as pro-people. Unions have repeatedly screwed up too but the average UK worker/employee is at least as worthy as those of any other industrialised nation - something which was signally ignored throughout the seventies. Perhaps it was just obscured by the political flak that was flying around at the time.
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You lot keep it on Motoring and Rover or I lock the thread and delete everything which is not motoring.
Your choice.
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Item on Teletext tonight claiming that 2000 jobs are to go when the deal with SAIC goes ahead.
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04 reg CityRover's at my local dealer can now be had for £3999 and they are offering £1000 minimum part exchange so real cost is £2999. If they did a few more MPG they might be a good car at that price.
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Some lovely old-fashioned notions of industry from GrahamF1 - "Workers work, managers manage. Works a treat." - Er, no it doesn't - that's not how most modern and progressive car plants work these days, especially not the Japanese. That's just the kind of ideology that got this country's manufacturing industry into the mess its in now. I have just got back from Germany (doing some work for a 'well known' VM) and like the Japanese, the Germans very much believe in using the 'whole brain' of the company. This means involving the production operatives in the design of the line, problem solving, workflow improvement etc etc. In fact if you go into the BWM plant you find a lot of the production kit has actually been designed by the workers themselves, as has the line layout. Mind you, they do have a good education system over there, so the workforce are pretty bright.
I did a fair bit of work for Rover in the pre-BMW days and it was a shocking company. Most of the management were lazy and only interested in securing their next promotion - very keen to move on before their mistakes caught up with them. I was involved at the time BMW took over and the Germans were absolutely aghast at the calibre of the management and proceeded to buy most of them off. The workforce were treated very shoddily and it was no surprise there were strikes. Engineering staff were treated little better than the line workers and pay remains a problem to this day, IMHO.
A lot of emphasis has been put on using Eastern European labour - the Germans moved into this quite quickly. I have had dealings with Eastern European suppliers and I can tell you it has not been a smooth ride. They may be cheap, but quality can be very poor and they have considerable industrial strife (which strangely doesn't make the news over here). Educational standards are not that high (Poland has the highest level of functional illiteracy in Europe - about 21% of the adult population - UK is second highest!).
I really do wish Rover all the best, but sadly I suspect things have gone beyond the 'point of no return' and Rover will become one of those great British brand names (like Bush and Pye, to name just two) that is stuck on a product imported from China.
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"The 200/25 is arguably the last true British volume car. It was developed before the BMW takeover and without any significant Honda input."
Oh dear! whats a sad showcase for british talent.
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Non motoring stuff removed.
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I see we have got the usual Rover slagging off.
Having owned a new shape 200 I would rate it as one of the best supemini's I had.
I have also a 206 and a Punto, and would say that the 200 was better built than the others, better interior, and the K series 16v engine miles better than the 1.4 8v effort in the pug and no i didnt have any reliability issues or hgf..
True the 25 is a little overpriced but comparing some pre reg deals isnt exactly a fair comparison, its also getting close to the point where it should be replaced, but I would still buy one infact I will be looking for a new ZR soon.
as for the management being clueless all british management is clueless so whats your point?.
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Latest news story on Rover from the BBC.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4301947.stm
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Reading the article things still don't look too good for Rover - looks like the Chinese may just be using the deal to get their hands on a cheap engine & same any development costs. It's possible once production is up & running in China they may well back away from Rover.
Unfortunately if the article is true looks like the money won't all be used to develop new models - pension fund topping up is going to take a fair chunk !!
The new management at Rover, whilst deserving some degree of credit for at least keeping things going for a while, certainly seem to have set themselves up nicely & win whatever happens to the company, not so for the workforce - what a suprise eh !!
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The Chinese want the 'intellectual property' contained within Rover. Since Rover have had the benefit of both Honda and BMW design and manufacturing knowledge input then this is of considerable value. They are likely to have to shell out less than £200m to get it - a bargain.
Rover management have extracted what they wanted from the company, so I think the future for Rover in the UK will be grim.
I don't say this with any relish because I have done work for Rover in the past and there were (and still are) some great engineers there - talented and hard working. It will not be easy for them to find new jobs in the UK - the industry is looking rather shaky (as far as UK engineering design jobs go). A real shame, but then there has been a lack of interest in engineering in the UK for 20 years or more. It seems to have limped along in spite of government policy, rather then because of it.
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Unfortunately if the article is true looks like the money won't all be used to develop new models - pension fund topping up is going to take a fair chunk !!
Even if it all the SAIC money was put towards development, the sums involved don't seem big enough to develop a new model.
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Even if it all the SAIC money was put towards development, the sums involved don't seem big enough to develop a new model.
It might just cover giving the range yet another makeover ;-)
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>> Even if it all the SAIC money was put towards development, >> the sums involved don't seem big enough to develop a new >> model. It might just cover giving the range yet another makeover ;-)
As in another weird headlight arrangement, new badges, and desperate bribes to encourage folks to test-drive them?
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As in another weird headlight arrangement, new badges, and >>desperate bribes to encourage folks to test-drive them?
Yep thats about it!
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I have also a 206 and a Punto, and would say that the 200 was better built than the others, better interior, and the K series 16v engine miles better than the 1.4 8v effort in the pug and no i didnt have any reliability issues or hgf..
Having run a 1.4 ZX for three and a half years, I wouldn't agree that the K Series 16v engine is miles better. The ZX was good for about 104 mph with that engine and it returned at least 40 mpg (combined) during the time I had it, with never a drop of oil needed between 9000 mile services. It would run at 80 mph all day and always sounded very sweet.
I had the ZX when the 200 series was first introduced and took a 214 out for a test drive. It was a nice car to drive but with a very cramped cabin, and an asking price £12 at the time, there was never any danger of me being tempted to change the ZX for a Rover 214.
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Just seen my typo. I should have said £12K, obviously. I would have been seriously tempted at £12, lol.
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