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I think they would need to ask their EU bosses before they could give any help, and then there would probably pretestations from the French Renault and Citroen!
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then there would probably pretestations from the French Renault and Citroen!
Pots calling kettles 'sooty bottom'? Renault has no cause to complain.
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Probably close to the level of Ministerial and MPs' general and mileage expenses...:-))
Always easy to spend other people's money in the case of one particular political party and, if you are in danger of running out, just bump up the taxes.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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As reported on the FT.com today...
"Opposition parties expressed concern yesterday at the government's failure to deny that state-funded aid of some form was being touted to help Rover, which is a big employer in some Labour marginal seats."
Ed.
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I wonder if it will be as successful as when they used taxpayers money to prop up British Leyland?
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"I wonder if it will be as successful as when they used taxpayers money to prop up British Leyland?"
Course it will be: Birmingham still has a majority of Labour MPs.
madf
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Always wonder why anybody would buy a Rover? Its demise is so often talked about it must surely be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
When there are so many other options on the market what possesses people to buy such a thing? Seems politics is all that's propping Rover up, in which case let it go to the wall, surely.
Just wondering --
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The West Midlands has a fierce loyalty to Rover, it's shown as Vauxhall and Ford don't hold the #1 spot for car sales in this area as MG/Rover does, and in the BL days the only people who were daft enough to buy the cars were people from the Midlands to keep jobs going. But the problem is why develop tat like the CityRover and StreetWise? When you have a key market car in the 45 thats out-dated and really is important to the companys future, ok TWR went bust who were co-developing it's replacement and that was an age ago and the date keeps getting up back time and time again.
Now John Towers and co. have got thier pensions sorted out, it's a case of good night, and can the last one out of Q gate turn the lights out....
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Apparently there will be no funding for Rover, as their cars don't appeal to enough asylum seekers and reformed offenders.
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If Rover get another bailout then it'll be about time someone gave me a free one.
I'll have paid for it enough times over, after all.
I'll also be writing to Two Jags to tell him how many staff we employ, so he can divide that into the number of Rover employees and give us that fraction of Rover's cash. (Best send him a calculator too, actually.)
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If I was considering investing in or having a joint venture with an ailing company on the other side of the world I'm not sure John Prescott turning up in my office, cheque or no cheque, would make me feel any easier about the prospective deal.
With the election in May I'd estimate that by March both Jaguar & Peugeot will be leaking stories of more job losses in the Midlands unless government aid is given for a new factory/car/toilet/canteen/hand towel dispenser etc.
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Personally I have no objection to taxpayers money being used to support our industry. We know its done in other countries so why not ours. Perhaps a naïve view but as Schnitzel points out we use vast amounts of our money on asylum seekers which sends most of us into a frenzy so why not subsidise our own workers.
And with the flood of cheap imports into Britain produced under cheap labour how on earth are we supposed to compete with this.
I despair when I think of our industrial heritage now almost gone together with its skills. People now employed in service sectors and skilled men stacking supermarket shelves. Such a fragile economy we now have. A few years ago we were told that metal bashing industries were obsolete in our modern country and should be left to the third world. We should concentrate on the service sector and let the natives do this for us. Now we see these jobs are being exported also so what will be left for our children. An example of the last bits of industry is a well known boiler company nearby. They have been there since Adam was a lad. A friend who works there tells me whilst the boilers are still being sold they no longer make anything.
The foundry is now closed down and castings are imported from India. All the control parts are imported in. All that remains of this company which many of you will have their products in your home is a circular assembly line and the workers bolt on their little piece, tested, and straight into a carton.
We led the world in Industry and its all been let go for whatever reasons, market forces..unions, bad management whichever you choose. Support Rover?The French do for their products and are they any better than ours?.
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Whatever examples you may give from abroad, in this country the bailing out of the motor industry (or any other industry) with taxpayers money has never worked. It is also worth noting that while we have lost most of our manufacturing industry over the past thirty or forty years, we are now the fourth largest economy in the world, thanks to our expertise in other fields. The truth is that despite our engineering expertise we were never very good at mass producing cars or motorcycles, we were only successful when there was no competition and people had to buy what we produced or go without.
If Rover cannot sell enough cars to survive then it is a pity, but it is their own doing and they should have to find a solution themselves or take the consequences. I can think of far better things I would like my taxes to be spent on than proping up a lame duck manufacturer so that they can continue to produce cars that nobody wants.
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Personally I have no objection to taxpayers money being used to support our industry
I can see your point, but it all depends on whether we see industry as a contributor to the economy or as an extension of the welfare state. Leaving aside vital supplies such as defence contracts, all such support amounts to subsidising phoney jobs at the expense of real ones. That approach reached the pinnacle of absurdity when, in order to preserve the fiction that Tneside was producing ships, Callaghan built two merchant vessles for Poland at a price of £68,000 for the two. These vessels then set about undercutting our own merchant marine.
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And on the subject of the North East
"Ellington Colliery, in Northumberland, the last working mine in what was once the world's largest coalfield, was closed yesterday with the loss of 340 jobs.
The decision was taken after 1,200 gallons of water a minute began flooding the last deep mine in north-east England. It effectively means an end to "coals from Newcastle", in an area which during the First World War had 224,000 miners producing 56 million tons a year."
Perhaps the closure of Rover would just be another stage in the restructuring of British industry? Is it inevitable? Is it desirable?
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>>just be another stage in the restructuring of British industry? Is it inevitable? Is it desirable?
Is it Motoring ?
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"Is it Motoring ?"
It certainly is if you include the first half of the sentence which was whether the closure of Rover was just another stage in the restructuring of British Industry.
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Personally I have no objection to taxpayers money being used to support our industry.
Well said Alvin. Lots of UK industry has been subsidised for years. How long have we been featherbedding the farmers for?
Mind you, when you're trying to build a country fit for estate agents, property valuers and 'financial advisers' then I guess a few industrial workers will be obliged to sleep under bridges. Far too much money is being conjured up out of thin air through land and property deals - it'll all end in tears.
I have watched over the last 26 years as British engineering excellence has been destroyed (Thatcher put the knife in, in 1979). The truth is that far from putting too much public money into our industry, we actually put in too little. Continual drip feeding of small amounts.
The French, Germans, Japanese and Americans (through massive defence contracts) threw money at their engineering industries and now reap the benefits. The British economy stands like a house of cards - propped up by property, retail and 'hospitality'/leisure. Big business in these sectors is keen to see people coming into the country because they equal extra customers and will accept derisory wages - keeping labour costs down.
In a further act of madness the 1990's saw the introduction of 'market forces' into Further and Higher Education. Colleges and universities have scrapped many 'expensive' science and engineering courses in favour of lower cost and more 'profitable' courses in media, leisure and 'business studies'.
In a few years time you won't be able to get skilled automotive technicians and engineers because for many colleges it is not financially viable to train them. You'll find it easy to get someone to give you a critique of Eastenders though!
Cuttting education funding also means that university places are preferentially given to overseas students because higher fees can be extracted from them. Go into university engineering departments and you'll find that most of the engineering R&D is being done by researchers from China, India and the Middle East - not many British people in there now. These people then return home after a few years and put UK companies out of business.
The UK is going downhill fast IMHO. Frankly I simply don't believe we're the fourth largest economy. Nor do I believe that we are doing so much better than the rest of Europe (as we're so often told).
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How long have we been featherbedding the farmers for?
Claptrap. I know one or two farmers here who would take issue with you on that. You try running a dairy herd of 288 head at the age of 65, with only wife and one son to help. And have you 'consultants' with your flash motors ever noticed what's happening to hill farming?
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>> How long have we been featherbedding the farmers for? Claptrap. I know one or two farmers here who would take issue with you on that. You try running a dairy herd of 288 head at the age of 65, with only wife and one son to help. And have you 'consultants' with your flash motors ever noticed what's happening to hill farming?
Not claptrap, matey - fact. Farming has been the most heavily subsidised industry by some measure. I was born and raised in a farming area. Know lots of farmers and related to one or two!. The small ones are having it tough now, I agree, but in the past money was poured into the industry like there was no tomorrow.
The big boys are still doing very well from all the subsidies.
Compare subsidies per employee in the farming industry with those in any other industry. The coal miners would have murdered for those kind of subsidies. Too many farmers refuse to accept the inevitable and think the country owes them a living.
Most of the farmers finding it tough now are sitting on a fair bit of capital - can bail out without too much financial hardship if they want. I'll agree there are some facing hardship - but so too are many ex-miners and steelworkers.
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>>The big boys are still doing very well from all the subsidies.
The usual mythology, matey. Subsidies do not benefit the farmer -- they benefit outfits like Northern Foods by keeping down the price of their raw materials. And, of course, Tesco.
And yes, the agro-barons of East Anglia are certainly doing well, but they are the the selective exception while the small farmer is going to the wall, producing milk at a loss. The National Farmers Union has called for an end to subsidies, and for farmers to receive a fair price for their produce instead.
That, however, would push up the price of food -- can you imagine the screams when the Top Gear fantasists learn that they can't have a Bloggs MkX Super-Oaf because the housekeeping won't run to the new toy?
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Leaned on the Submit button too soon. Just a little economic history for you -- miners and steelworkers actually received such generous subsidy from the Labour government that it bankrupted the country. Every miner was subsidised to the extent of £14,000each per year -- it would have been cheaper to give every one of them £13,900 a year to stay at home. British Steel was subsidised to the extent of £1 millon a DAY. When this house of cards collapsed, both miners and steelworkers got redundancy terms and resettlement grants on a scale that no farmer will ever see.
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Put so much better than I could Aprilia and agree with what you say.. Not being an academic I can only view the bigger picture from a position of being regretfully advanced in years, but statements from the Government spin department of us doing so well belies what I actually see. Fourth largest economy?. Even if this were true its statistics only and much of this is probably related to invisible earnings which could collapse tomorrow. 9/11.
Why do we have to beg for foreign companies to set up in Britain.
I am old enough to remember men coming home from Japanese POW camps looking like little skeletons. And a relative few years later in my own County we were groveling and offering inducements for Toyota to set up their assembly plant. And yes I know they are wonderful products.
A world market place with free trade sounds Utopia with cheaper prices at present but IMHO can?t be sustained due to unequal starting points. An advanced country like Britain will eventually be left behind by emerging nations who we will depend on for virtually everything.
Yes I believe we should subsidise our industries and selective education to ensure our future. If we can find billions to attack Iraq, build useless millenium domes (needing German skills), and the Chancellor promising unlimited amounts to African despots and warlords surely we can look after our own people.
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Automotive manufacture is rapidly becoming a nil value industry in 1st world economy.
Profits? Ford - Nah, GM? - when? Nissan? - deep in the mire bailed out by French Government via Renault.
If the Yanks cant make money out of it who can?
Throw MG/Rover to the wall, we have been proping them up for too long - Allow car manufacture to drift into the third world economies where it belongs.
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(yawns and stretches) tells £10 per month housemaid to bring him another 14p beer and some more sun oil as he peruses the Pink Un's share prices, while delightful partner says let's go to Honkers next weekend for a spot of shopping -- Philippine Airlines has a promo this month --, meanwhile don't forget your masseuse appointment is at 3 o'clock......
...damn! I must get the pool company on to that filter problem.
Funny how all the cars we get here seem to be imported from Thailand or else assembled locally. Must be why they're so cheap. I've always wondered also how Ford can sell a fully loaded F-150 4WD Lariat imported with clean papers for less than it sells in the US. Perhaps it's dumping. Got no problem with that. Well, Harley-Davidson Motor Company is making money anyway, my shares are looking good.
HMG even pays my (pitiful) OAP into my local bank for me.
Even the whinging Poms seem to mellow when they get here, or maybe I'm getting more tolerant in me dotage.
If this is third world, suits me.....
Growler (in TIC mode) out
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oooh yes please - let's give lots of money to Rover. It worked so well in the past. After all, the evidence is before you - look how healthy Rover is now for all the money it was given.
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Profits - Ford 2005 estimate
Ford Announces 2005 Financial Milestones
* Ford anticipates 2005 earnings per share of $1.75 to $1.95, based on total company pre-tax profit in the range of $5 billion to $5.7 billion, excluding special items.
* Total Automotive pre-tax profit milestone for 2005 is $1.5 billion to $2 billion, excluding special items.
* Total Financial Services pre-tax profit milestone for 2005 is $3.5 billion to $3.7 billion, excluding special items.
* Company anticipates first-quarter earnings per share in 2005
of 25 to 35 cents, excluding special items
Profits - GM 2004 estimates
GM Earns $1.3 Billion or $2.25 Per Share in First Quarter 2004
* GM first-quarter earnings rise 24 percent versus adjusted 2003 results
* GMAC
reports record first-quarter results, driven by financing and insurance
* GM increases 2004 earnings forecast to approximately $7.00 per share
I wish I didn't make money yet still made several billion a year!
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Well done Badger, people always like to give farmers stick when they have got full bellies.
Haven't people noticed how the English countyside has been kept in good condition by us farmers. Have they noticed how cheap food is compared to 30 years ago.
I think one Eurofighter costs approx £20,000,000, you can get a superior F15 for £1,000,000, what about the subsidy there?
I feel sorry for workers at Rover, but the company and it's products have been a sick joke for years. How much more money must we put into this bottomless pit.
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Unless the UK government ploughs billons into MG Rover (which EU rules prevent it from doing and which it won't do anyway)
A fair point about EU rules, HJ, but they do seem to be rather leaky. Air France had no problem getting round them and the screams of BA went unheard. And we somehow seem to have sunk some £700 million of taxpayer's money into the much trumpeted new Airbus A380. Did anyone see that coming? Oh, but that's a *European* project, like Eurofighter. Silly me . . .
Call me an old cynic, but I strongly suspect that the bung to Rover (which has not been denied) has everything to do with a coming election and the fact that Longbridge is surrounded by Labour marginal constituencies. After the election, who'll give a stuff?
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I owe Aprilia an apology. He made a serious point, and though I believe him to be profoundly mistaken it was discourteous of me to dismiss it as 'claptrap'. Unparliamentary language, which I now withdraw.
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An F15 for £1,000,000. Only if it's made by airfix. Don't want to sound like a spotter, but the latest F-15 is £35,000,000. The Eurofighter is a far,far better aircraft, with a life span of 40 years. As regards MG-Rover, financially, it's in a better position than many other car companies. Mitsibushi is about to go bust and Ford and General Motors shares are now on the junk bond market. Quentin Wilson has a good article in Used Car Buyer at the moment about this very topic. I agree it's cars need to be updated, but that doesn't make them rubbish. Public confidence is missing because of the constant and usually inaccurate negative press reporting. I don't have any particular affiliation to the company (other than driving a ZT), but I do like balanced and accurate reporting. There's not a lot of it about at the moment.
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I think the difference between Rover and other car companies is that the Longbridge company has sold off most of its assets and cannot probably launch a new car without wiping out its entire resources. Not only that, I doubt any bank or institution would lend any money to the company - it's been done before and failed. Also new car sales don't inspire confidence.
Honestjohn is right regarding the MINI, build quality is awful and terribly inconsistent - but a good car lies underneath all the rattles!
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Near Tucson there are rows and rows of F15s, F16s and others. I was suggesting that we buy used planes, which I understood to be £1,000,000 each, of course with full history, warrenty etc.
Most experts think that these tried and tested planes are much better than the years behind schedule Eurofighter.
I stand by my thoughts that any money that farmers receive results in best quality food, and well kept countryside.
I think that we will be seeing Fords and Vauxhalls on the road many years after Rover/Austin-Rover/British Leyland/BMC has been laid to rest.
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Migs and SUs were going even cheaper.
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Migs and SUs were going even cheaper.
That's SU for Sukhoi (as in SU-27 www.vectorsite.net/avsu27.html ), not SUV in case anyone grabs their chequebook and makes a beeline for the nearest car showroom.
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The aircraft at Davis Monathon are mostly at the end of their fatigue life. It would cost many, many millions to refurbish their airframes and avionics, plus equipe them with modern radars etc, resistent to jamming. I'm not defending the Typhoons cost (mostly down to the constant delaying tactics of Germany), but it is a supremely capable aircraft. It's only bettered by the hugely expensive F-22 Raptor. There, I've just declared myself to be a complete sadcase spotter. But I was once a Royal Navy air traffic controller!!
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Funnily enough I had a visit from a farming relative of mine earlier today (came over in his new Range Rover). I asked him how things are going and he told me not too good at the moment. He's being paid £60 ton for wheat (as opposed to £120 a couple of years ago). He's doing well out of subsidies though. He's not cultivating a fair portion of his land, but still gets the same income (subsidy). He reckons the government aren't interested in farming in the UK and feel we might as well import all our food. He did conceded that most farmers are doing very well indeed out of subsidy, although he reckons there are a lot of rules and regs to follow to get the money. He tells me the 'poor' farmers are the ones who have to pay rent, apparently they are having a really rough time.
On a more general theme, I think you'll find that agriculture has been subsidised more than any other industry in the UK. Many many times over and above what manufacturing has received.
I'm also puzzled as to why subsidy (bribes) to foreign investors such as Nissan, Siemens, Toytota, LG etc. is regarded as a 'good' thing, yet any kind of subsidy to British owned industry is 'bad.
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We can trade "my farmer's bigger than your farmer" anecdotes till the cows come home, but I'm calling it a day before the mods get me. My views are unchanged as, no doubt, are yours. Look after yourself.
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Subsidy to Nissan, Toyota etc at least seems to work.
The Range Rover one is a bit old you know, what about never seeing a farmer on a bike.
Like Badger I am now quiting this, before I get told off.
You will want us when the famine comes.
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Subsidy to Nissan, Toyota etc at least seems to work. The Range Rover one is a bit old you know, what about never seeing a farmer on a bike. Like Badger I am now quiting this, before I get told off. You will want us when the famine comes.
As God is my witness he's just bought a new RR. His farm's not too far from one of our moderators (near Leamington Spa). He bought the RR over to me to 'show it' and to ask what I thought about converting to LPG (apparantly there's somewhere near Leamington where you can get LPG for 30p a litre?!).
He also has a beautiful Merc. C-class which sits in an outbuilding and just gathers dust. Can't be bothered to sell it! If only I could persuade him to let me have it (still working on that one).
Anyway, I don't think the subsidy to Nissan worked all that well - they went bust if you recall. They were subsequently bought by Renault (lots of nice French government money) - so instead of throwing money at the Japs to pay them to build factories, the French bought them out! Nice! The French have now got access to lots of outstanding Japanese technology (I have a high opinion of Nissan) - let's hope Renault make good use of it.
On the other hand, British government policy since 1979 is to get rid of British industrial expertise as quickly as possible. Note how BMW got into the 4x4 market!! I expect soon we'll have a few nice little sweetners on offer for the Chinese - the policy seems that we not only help them as much as possible with our technology, but pay them to take it too!
Never mind, with an election coming up and Towers et al pensions sorted out, its a done deal.
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I am one of few people here who believe that Rover should be kept afloat with caviats. These are my reasons.
The social cost of ditching Rover would be horrendous. The knock on effects on the region would be comparable to that when the mines were closed in Yourkshire. House prices fell some 10 to 15% when those in other areas were rising.
Closing our only mainstream motor manufacturer would leave the UK to the mercy of import only solutions, and IMO hurt the competitiveness of the industry.
We would bury the technology that has been created there.
Now those caviats I mentioned.
Rover MUST be funded to develop a wider range of cars such as the MPV, SUV and commercial vehicles. All these profitable little offshoots have been sold off over the years, and it must be time for Rover to compete with them now.
Rover must offer USPs (Unique Selling Points) that buyers can put a value to. A scheme similar to Volvo's Lifetime warranty would be a good idea, or perhaps guaranteed trade in values against replacement models would make people consider the deprecation aspect a little differently. Other ideas could be considered.
Rover must have a realistic expansion plan to take advantage of new markets opening up across the globe.
Rover should explore possible deals with the big hire car companies. You very rarely see Rover hire cars these days.
Rover should also offer competitive lease schemes through Large employers, Trade Unions, Institutions, NHS etc.
The Government should give incentives and directives to public bodies to pursue purchases of Rovers where these are a viable alternative to other cars. Police, armed forces, civil service etc.
H
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Rover will be gone soon, there's no need for the company. I live only a few miles from Rover, it wouldn't make much difference to the local economy as there are lots of other industrial things going on. Its not as if Rover are the only employer for miles around like the pits were in Yorkshire.
All the old established brands will be under threat if the Japanese and Koreans get serious with the European car market like they have in the US. Kia already have the best selling city car in the UK (overtook the Ford KA last month) and best selling large MPV. The Japanese are still only on their first generation of cars that were specifically designed for Europe instead of world cars. They also make money (except Mitsubishi) and have expanding markets, most European and American marks are losing share worldwide.
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Now those caviats I mentioned. Rover MUST ... Rover must ... Rover must ... Rover should ... Rover should also ... The Government should ...
And pigs will fly, Hugo. Sorry to be blunt, but...
A company that lives on Government money will never have the nerve or the gumption either to make choices like that or to execute them well enough. It will sit tight, operate conservatively to keep Sir Humphrey happy, and give us groundbreaking cars that create new niches, like (say) the 25/45/75, not tired old re-hashes of old designs, like (say) the Renault Scenic.
I will now duck for cover.
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And pigs will fly, Hugo. Sorry to be blunt, but... A company that lives on Government money will never have the nerve or the gumption either to make choices like that or to execute them well enough. It will sit tight, operate conservatively to keep Sir Humphrey happy, and give us groundbreaking cars that create new niches, like (say) the 25/45/75, not tired old re-hashes of old designs, like (say) the Renault Scenic. I will now duck for cover.
Good example, as Renault hasn't relied on French Government money at all, has it?
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Good example, as Renault hasn't relied on French Government money at all, has it?
What's the emoticon for a red face? ;-)
I still object to my money being used to subsidise the manufacture of a dire car that I don't want. Especially today.
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You very rarely see Rover hire cars these days.
I wonder why. Hmmmmm.
Actually, you don't see many Rovers. Full stop.
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>>We would bury the technology that has been created there.
Actually, I think everybody has got the wheel now. Or has Rover invented somthing since then ?
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On the other hand, and slightly off topic, people are forever commenting on the depreciation of a Rover and how its worse than anyone else......
Well, from HJ's latest auction report;
"And a top bid of £6,700 for a Doom Blue 22k mile 04 reg Mondeo 1.8LX was verging on the derisory."
Ow !
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>>The Government should give incentives and directives to public bodies to pursue purchases of Rovers where these are a viable alternative to other cars. Police, armed forces, civil service etc.
Not with they money, they shouldn't.
Rover can do what it likes as a private company, the government can keep my money in its pocket and not subsidise them. Unless they are going to subsidise all businesses ? Or just the ones they like ?
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Now there is talk of the Government suspending VAT payments to help Rover a long. SAIC must realise how flimsy the whole Rover operation is and can only see these measures as desperation.
The difference between Renault and Rover is that the French maker has a very loyal home grown customer base. In other words, when in France nearly every other car is a Renualt.
If the SAIC deal fails, Rover can still produce their new car but it would be produced with less of a development budget than their CityRover!!
Still cannot get my head round the SAIC deal. They are presumably after the technology Rover can offer them - but what technology does Rover have? Correct me if I am wrong, but they must be the only company who have not developed their own Satellite Navigation system - the ones offered on the 75 are old BMW units.
One of the reasons why hire companies do not have many Rover cars on their fleet is due to the cost of having them there. In other words, the hire companies don't get much back when they come to sell them.
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You think car companies design and make sat nav systems?
Crikey.
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And here was me thinking car companies made their own tyres as well!
My point was that the current Rover line up are hardly examples of cutting edge technology.
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Hardly the same thing mate.
>>>they must be the only company who have not developed their >>>own Satellite Navigation system - the ones offered on the 75 >>>are old BMW units.
You explicitly implied that car manufacturers develop sat nav systems. I think I made a fair point.
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What might determine the survival of Rover could be the number of marginal labour seats in the area - there is an election coming up!!
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Fair point.
On the subject of sat nav, surely it is up to the vehicle manufacturers to decide which sat nav system to go for with testing, installation, compliance and reliability etc all taken into consideration. My Point was that Rover has no experience regarding this, other than using BMW's old hand-me-down systems in the 75.
On their new 75 models, Rover still cannot supply an integral radio. The ones that are fitted give the impression they are supplied by Halfords. Hardly high tech and they look out of place in a car of that category. Just another example.
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Now there is talk of the Government suspending VAT payments to help Rover a long.
How do you apply for that? Which VAT form is it? I'm sure a lot of businesses would appreciate it.
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Oddly enough, I suspect SAIC may be more interested in Powertrain than Rover .... at the end of last year they announced a deal with Camcon for there binary actuation technology for engines "Intelligent Valve Actuation (IVA), as the product has been designated, will significantly improve the engine combustion efficiency, enhancing engine performance and fuel economy, whilst at the same time enabling reduced emissions from the engine." The R&D for this was part paid for by Rover.
Well, makes more sense than them being desparate for the Rover's production cars, anyway... !
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