What would backroomers consider to be the car that has been the most ahead of its time when launched? What I am thinking about here is general all-round competency or a speciific attribute that effectively made all of it's competitors obsolete overnight.
My list:
Bentley R-Type Continental - 120 mph cruising in a World used to 60.
Mercedes 300 SL - Possibly the World's first supercar. First car to have fuel injection as standard.
Maclaren F1 - could anyone imagine that a supercar could be so much quicker than any of the previous supercars?
Jaguar XJ6 series one - Better than any other car of it's time in all areas except build quality and space.
Jaguar E-type and XK120 - Beautiful looks and real performance and at half the costs their exotic rivals.
I would sadly rule out the Citroen DS because its design and engineering were not a strong influence on other carmakers.
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The original mini. Amazing packaging and performance.
The Citroen Traction Avant. Monocoque and fwd in the 30's.
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Damn your hide Nick - you took the two very words right out of my mouth.
Nothing comes close to those two
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>>I would sadly rule out the Citroen DS because its design and engineering were not a strong influence on other carmakers.
Probably because it was so far ahead of its time for other manufacturers to catch on to its innovative features. No doubt the attitude of the time was that it was too complicated and would be unreliable.
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I had a ride in a DS over thirty years ago, it was a London Mini Cab no less! I can still remember it felt like floating along on a cloud, the ride was so luxurious. One feature that was certainly ahead of it's time were the headlights that pivoted with the steering. I wish that would catch on, as I do a lot of night driving on unlit roads now it would be a welcome feature.
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The Austin A40, the first hatchback. At the time, Austin's chairman Donald Stokes dismissed it, loftily declaring that nobody would buy a car with an upwards-opening door in the back instead of a proper boot.
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A40 - brilliant. Stokes was known for his foresight which is why MG Rover is such a cutting edge, world leading quality car maker. I was serious about the A40 though that was out of the box thinking.
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Was the Maestro Vanden Plas ahead of it's time for being able to talk? I'm not sure.... What about the jelly-mould Sierra?
Sorry C5 owner, I was only winding you up a bit! I don't think you can tell whether a car is ahead of it's time until you see what the future holds.
There are only two cars I can remember saying retrospectively wthey ere ahead of their time.... The Rover 800 and Mazda 626 (92>97)
This was just based on "the look", rather than anything else (obviously).
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The NSU Ro80 was ahead of its time also, and looks "ordinary" today which the DS does not.
As with the DS engineering generally was clever but in both cases the drawback was the engine. In the one case it was a bit too far ahead to work reliably, and in the other it was agricultural even in its own time.
Now either with an RX8 motor.......
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A slightly maverick choice perhaps - the original Austin A40, the Devon. Very conventional by 50s standards but it was launched in 1947, with an OHV engine, a four-speed gearbox and room for 5 (the later ones with a column gearchange could seat 6). Contemporary Fords, Vauzhalls, Hillmans and Morrises had side-valve engines that wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding; and Ford and Vauxhall persisted with 3-speed gearboxes well into the 50s. And Austins would start easily - more of an advance than one might think nowadays!
I agree wholeheartedly with the Lancia Aprilia - but the A40 was perhaps more influential. Otherwise - agree with:
Ford model T and Austin Seven (both brought motoring to the masses)
Citroen Traction Avant
Renault Espace and Scenic
Mini
and finally what about the Honda Jazz? Best use of space in a small car that I've ever seen.
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The 1982 Ford Sierra and the 1998 Ford Focus. IMO had more impact on the public and press in conparison than the cars they replaced more than any other I can think of. In particular the Sierra, Absolutly light years ahead of the opposition and the car it replaced.
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Anyone remember reading about the "Tucker"? That was supposed to have been scarily advanced for its time.
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Agree re Dolomite Sprint, the first production 16v engine, now 4v/cyl is almost universal.
Also the Sierra re aerodynamics, Audi had to use a euro market 100 which did not havea passenger door mirror to claim the same 0.28 CD figure.
Yes many cars still have rear drums however 90% of the braking is done at the front, all cars now have front discs.
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Technically correct, your HJship, but the concept was surely there.
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""The 1982 Ford Sierra and the 1998 Ford Focus. IMO had more impact on the public and press in conparison than the cars they replaced more than any other I can think of. In particular the Sierra, Absolutly light years ahead of the opposition and the car it replaced.""
UP to a point yes!
I used to think the Sierra was a dumb ugly boring heap, when I owned a V8 Rover Vitesse, (then the bees knees of the cheaper performance cars. Actually not far from the original V8 Porsche in dynamics) - and of course it murdered BMW, Jaguar,and Volvo, in the Euro Touring car thing!
But when in 1992, my rapidly degrading Rover had another major bill in hand, I chose to buy, for £1200, a decadent 1984 2 door basic Sierra 1.6 lurking in my yard with a "sell or you have it" message from it``s owner. 100,000 miles and 8 years old,, it appeared in fantastic knick - German built. I still have it, and at 21 years old, it still works. But, at that time I needed something to rush off to Scotland. I was amazed how good it was. Cruising at 90 mph with a 4 SPEED?
Have had Sierras ever since, and got used to the jelly mold look; even think now, the look has it`s points.
Best thing, they are tough, reliable and will do 400,000 miles. Mini cab owners dream.
Still think they look like crap, but YOUR point is relevant.
ALL modern cars with a very few exceptions look like Ford Sierras. Every other manufacturer copied the Jelly Mold look,
and today it is virtually impossible to distinguish between one make and another; Audis all look like Sierras, with a bit of Cortina thrown in. BMWs look like Sierras but, with a higher waist line and various creases (now "Dents") to distinguish themselves. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Renault all copied the Sierra; now they are all trying to find a "view " of their own, and in most cases (Renault?) the results look absolutely HORRIBLE! Bentley, Rolls Royce, Range Rover, etc. look HIDEOUS
So, you have my vote, at least on styling arguments.
As they say, Discuss!
AS
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The DS without a doubt, and the TA. NS Ro80, the slippery Audi 100, the original (unadulterated) Mini, the SAAB 99 Turbo and if they had ever built it right the first Maxi.
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Agree with all your choices Buster, except the Maxi. Any car with cable-operated gearbox is not "ahead of its time."
The Renault 16 was the first 5 door hatch, with several ways of arranging the seats, and set a new standard for comfort.
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""Agree with all your choices Buster, except the Maxi. Any car with cable-operated gearbox is not "ahead of its time.""
But the Austin Maxi WAS the first car with a cable operated gearbox! It did cause some trouble, (new ideas are always "service" disasters, c/f - ? Rear engine Chev? -well, almost ALL new ideas, including the wankel engine) - but mostly it worked very well. And, you forget that it was the first cheapo car with a 5 speed gearbox. Took BMW years to catch up on that one. Before, the Brits on holiday used to enjoy bateing the Germans on their Autobahns with cheapo "up-market" cars with the useful "overdrive 2 speed" supplementary gearbox. This was limited to 3d. and 4th. gears by electric solenoid, to protect the unit from too much torque. But it provided 6 speeds for an ordinary 4 speed gearbox, and in overdrive top, for example, a Triumph 2500 Fuel Injection would be revving at only 4000 rpm at 100 mph. Flat out would be 125 mph (downwind) at 5000rpm; at these sort of speeds in the 1970`s your average BMW or Merc, or chaep Porsche, would blow up on a hot day after about 20 miles.
The French had nothing in those days to compete. 70 mph was then considered to be a crazy speed by most folk.
The Americans, of course, had long distance trucks capable of doing these sort of speeds (well, 90 mph) in the late 1930`s.
As they say, Discuss!
AS
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>>The Midland Red bus company operated its C5 motorway coaches on the M1 at 80 mph when it opened in the late 1950's. A turbocharged version, the C5T, was said to capable of 100mph. And these coaches were built in-house by Midland Red, including the engines.
www.britishmodelbuses.com/Real%20bus%20pictures%20...%
Cheers, Sofa Spud - sorry, a bit off topic!!
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Cheers, Sofa Spud - sorry, a bit off topic!!
That's alright. The link didn't work anyway ;o)
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No one has mentioned the Rover 2000 P4 or even the SD1 . BOth were advanced in terms of engineering (in the case of the former) and styling in the case of the latter - shame about Rover now
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