The wife's Madza Xedos9 Auto started whining a little when cold a week ago. Today it's doing it all the time. I think the whine's auto box related as it only happens under power and then seems to be an exaggerated version of the normal noise of an auto.
I've just checked the ATF. It's brown and pretty grossly overfilled.
Any views on whether changing the ATF is likely to help, or have things gone too far by this point? I don't want to waste the time, effort and cash changing ATF if it's going to need professional attention anyway.
V
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Does sound like there's a problem. Brown ATF is never good news. Is it burnt (slightly acrid/sweet smell)?
Did you check the level correctly (i.e. hot gearbox, engine running in Park)?
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I once read that brown ATF is usually a sign of the gearbox "slipping" through worn brake bands etc (?)
Are the gearbox changes sluggish, taking longer than normal to fully engage the next gear?
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Managed to check today, no really noticeable smell, yes, it is overfilled and it's a bit sluggish on kickdown.
I guess my questions are, is it worth changing the oil, or is that likely to be addressing a symptom rather than a cause? Is it likely to improve matters and/or stop further degeneration? Is changinfg fluid any kind of cure for auto woes, or is it past that stage once discolouration has happened?
V
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Changing the fluid certainly won't do any harm, and it may well go some way to alleviating the problem.
Change the fluid - its a lot cheaper than a box rebuild.
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Can I recommend having the transmission flushed? When changing the fluid on an autobox by draining and refilling, you only change whats in the valve block and gear case. There's still a considerable quantity in the torque converter that immediately pollutes your nice new oil.
Flushing connects the gearbox input and output lines which normally go to the oil cooler into a machine which filters the fluid as it passes through. (AIUI) Once the worst of the bad fluid is removed, the unit then injects the new oil and the old fluid is dumped to a catch tank for disposal.
I've just had this done on my Mitsubishi Legnum (Galant estate) VR-4. The main Mitsubishi dealer here does this as a matter of course on all used Japanese imports that they sell, and says that it greatly improves gearbox operation. I suppose they consider it worth doing, as it costs them a certain amount to do it.
Before the VR-4, I had a Miller Cycle Eunos 800 2.3 which is the same as the Xedos 9. Very nice car, and was quite quick. The need for an estate dictated the change, and the Eunos wasn't available in estate form.
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I am a great beliver in changing auto gearbox oil. This hot environment is very demanding, am I am amazed how people never change the oil or filter and expect few problems. The cost if done yourself is £10-15, plus £5+ for a filter. My Mercedes 230E 1992 has a drain plug on the sump, AND one on the converter so all the oil can be extracted. Why does'nt everyone do this, as it is only a tap and screw plug extra. It may explain why these boxes are so good and last so long. Mine is 115,000 miles and as sweet as when it was new. I also chnge oil and filter at 30k and oill again at 15k.
I agree with the above comment if you cannot get all the old oil out, have a good power flush. A good auto specialist maybe much cheaper, possibly £50+? On such an expensive box, it has got to be worth a try, especially if it is not so bad at present. I would be interested in the outcome. Good luck.
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The saga is reaching a conclusion. First of all, though, thanks for all your help.
Things suddenly got much worse last week. The car ended up undrivable, with a refusal to get out of first and huge slippage when starting. I spent a chunk of the weekend changing the ATF, only to find no improvement.
This morning I called my local Auto specialist. The conversation was educational:
"Hello, I've got a problem with an auto box"
"What car?"
"Mazda Xedos 9"
"Ah, so it's slipping in first gear, very reluctant to change up; in fact you're not getting second gear. There's a burning smell from the engine when you stop"
"Erm...you a mind reader?"
"Nope, Mazda's all go like that. The clutch plates inside the box aren't up to the job. In fact they are $%*^!"
"So, you'll have some idea of the cost of repair"
"700 quid plus VAT" (note, no pause, not a millisecond)
"Any way to make it cheaper?"
"Not if you want it to work. We've tried cheaper, but it doesn't work - EVERYTHING needs cleaning. Nothing short of a full rebuild for this one, I'm afraid"
"OK, I'll be in Thursday"
"Cheers, bye"
So. All diagnosed. He says the core problem is that the clutch plates used for first and third are far too small for the job. They wear, they start to slip and hey presto, another holiday for him. The band that runs second gear is better and doesn't tend to go.
Now my only problem is finding £820 the week before Christmas. Wonder how much I'll get for the kids on Ebay?
V
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P.S. In light of the comments you've all made above, he's doing an ATF and filter change on my Omega when I go to collect the Mazda.
V
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Sorry to hear that.
Could be worth updating the CBCB for this model maybe. Unusual technical error by Mazda standards.
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Sorry to hear that. Could be worth updating the CBCB for this model maybe. Unusual technical error by Mazda standards.
I don't know much about these cars - but if its like other Mazdas then the autogearbox could be a Ford unit - which would be the root of your trouble. £700 would be a very cheap rebuild for a Japanese unit - so I strongly suspect its a variant of the Ford CD4E (which would explain everything!).
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Ah! I think thats probably right Aprilia.
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Well, wifey went back last night to collect the car and it's a revelation. It's clear that the transmission has been on its way out for some time. It's gone from snatchy and a bit rough to silky smooth and delightful. It's like a different car.
Thanks for all your advice. I got there in the end; just a matter of shelling out £822.
V
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Is there a problem with Ford (Mondeo???) auto boxes? I had considered a mark 2 or later mark 3, but now I am worried. Oil changes would help, but by how much, and what is the fundamental problem? Does it affect all Ford auto boxes?
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Ford autoboxes have never been particularly good. Ford have now admitted defeat and all of their autotransmission interests have been sold to ZF of Germany. Current "Ford" 'boxes are made by ZF (who also bought the Ford manufacturing plant in Batavia). I guess ZF are currently engineering a complete new range.
The CD4E 'box (Mondeo and various Mazdas) have sundry design flaws which mean that it expires somewhere between 60-100k miles.
The 'box was fitted in the Mazda 626 and US 626 owners launched a 'class action' against Mazda/Ford for supplying defective tranmissions and are claiming damamges.
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Interesting. Any ideas when Ford (German) boxes became Ok, if ever they did. Are ZF boxes good?
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Ford's RWD auto box AL4DE are ok, as used on the ugly Scorpio. My friend has taken his Scorpio Cosworth to 180k miles and no problem with the box yet.
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Is there a problem with Ford (Mondeo???) auto boxes? I had considered a mark 2 or later mark 3, but now I am worried. Oil changes would help, but by how much, and what is the fundamental problem? Does it affect all Ford auto boxes?
According to the chappie who just did mine, he says that first and third on these boxes is delivered via clutch plates rather than bands. In his opinion, the clutch plates simply aren't big enough for the job. By the time they have worn, the debris contaminates the reat of the gearbox so much that a rebuild is the only thing that will do the job.
Mine's a 2.5L engine, which must exacerbate the problem, as I'm sure the strain on the gearbox must be proportional to the power output.
What I'd be interested to know (as I'm going to change the car) is when Mondeo Autoboxes changed to the newer unti mentioned elsewhere (possibly in the post above this one).
V
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Why can't a manufacturing giant like ford get an automatic gearbox right?
They were probably one of the first to come up with the idea anyway and have had around 50 ,60 years ? to perfect it.
Seems strange when they get so much else right.
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I was always taught conventional wisdom was change the ATF annually, something I've always done, and which it seems, seldom appears on manufacturers' servicing schedules.
I don't know why I have a cluttered mind full of useless trivia (!) but IIRC the inventor of the auto trans was a guy called Oscar Banker (aptly named!).
The device first appeared on early Packards or Cadillacs I think, though I'm out on a limb with that one and could well be shot down. I do know that one of the earliest mass produced mainstream cars to boast auto was the post-WW2 Chevy Fleetline range. This I know because I once owned a '51 216 cu.inch 6 cyl Chevy with Powerglide transmission. This rejoiced only 2 speeds! + Park but was a lovely car to drive.
The Ford C-4's and C-5's of the '60's were built like Sherman tanks. I suppose in these days of outsourcing and the beanies running the business that quality design & engineering takes second place to bottom line.
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I don't know why I have a cluttered mind full of useless trivia (!) but IIRC the inventor of the auto trans was a guy called Oscar Banker (aptly named!).
>>
The web agrees with you.
bhull.blogspot.com/
and again
www.cilicia.com/armo22.html
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Darn it, now it comes back to me after reading that, and I should have known better particularly since I have just set this month's questions for my local drinker's rock trivia quiz.
The Oldsmobile Hydramatic of 1939, of course. Massive flathead engine that led its field for more than a decade, and which powered the famous Rocket 88 series. Delivered monster torque (for those days) at under 2000 rpm. They had to put the auto in it because the manual shift couldn't cut the mustard. If that wasn't a seminal move for the future of the motor industry......what was.
When I lived in Stanmore as a kid there was still the USAF base at Uxbridge, and we used to marvel at the wondrous lines, curves, gadgets, colours and sounds of American cars compared with our old Morris 8. Our neighbour across the street sported a jar-head haircut, Levi jeans, was about 8 foor tall, gave us bubblegum (remember sweets were rationed still after the war) and Superman comics and we were in awe of him. Whereas our petrol was rationed, he used to bring 5 gallon cans home for us from the base. His Rocket 88 was pale blue and made a magnificent noise.
"Rocket 88" by Jackie Brenston and the Delta Cats (1952)- (believe it or not that's Ike Turner to you), widely regarded as the first rock n roll record, unless of course its "Gee" by The Crows a year or so earlier. But then you're down to whether that's rock or really doo-wop.....
That'll be enough post-prandial X'mas Day Remy Martin for now. My nieces seem to have eaten all the mince pies anyway. I must go and check my ATF. My Ford does after all have a Mazda engine in it (neatly back to thread before being ambushed by moddies :+)
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That'll be enough post-prandial X'mas Day Remy Martin for now. My nieces seem to have eaten all the mince pies anyway. I must go and check my ATF. My Ford does after all have a Mazda engine in it (neatly back to thread before being ambushed by moddies :+)
So long as you recall which fluid goes in the gearbox and which fluid goes in your glass. RM & ATF mix?
As you might guess I am having a quiet day, as my daughter is on duty in JER where it is snowing. Dad collects at LGW early tomorrow then our delayed Christmas is tomorrow.
I see its time to wish you a Happy Boxing Day.
I am looking forward to your reports coming in 2005.
Meanwhile I had better start putting coins in a bottle for a future replacement Ford autobox.
Henry k
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Funny how burnt ATF looks like a fine port!
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>>>>> Funny how burnt ATF looks like a fine port!
Perhaps it's time to say that, just as one should never try hanging patterned wallpaper after a bibulous lunch, neither should one confuse what just came out of the transmission oil pan with the finer products of the grape.
..actually I thought at first the funny taste was due to the Stilton being a bit off...........
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