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...and I think that before we could be classed a police state we'd need a few more policemen....
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"Traffic Warden" or "Speed Camera" state doesn't sound quite as sinister somehow....
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I very much agree with the man writing the article and just because he is posh doesn't mean we should dismiss his argument. Someone who was not as eloquent or educated might not have been able to bring this outrageous incident to the public's attention. Most policemen I have come across have been sound as a pound (or soon to be euro :) ) but as with all jobs with a bit of power some people believe they can abuse the public with impunity (let's face it sometimes they can).
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You should not carry any sort of knife in public, penknife or other. I've seen the damage they can do first hand. No excuses.
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A well known farming saying is that every farmer carries a penknife and a piece of string in his pocket.
I always carry a penknife with me when in working clothes, and have never considered it to be unlawfull.
I think that we are becomming a police state with these new laws our masters are foisting upon us.
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The iresponsible few have spoilt it for the majority as per usual. Digressing from motoring so i'll leave it at that.
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Hmm, I'm not sure about this one: somehow the story of the arrest doesn't quite add up. Still, I'm glad to hear that carrying a collapsible baton is banned: I really can't see any legitimate reason for anyone to own one.
But I'm puzzled by the bit about the knife. Is it really now illegal to carry a penknife? I have carried a small Swiss Army knife in my handbag for years, and I'm a bit worried that I may be acting illegally.
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Is a cased penknife in a closed briefcase in a car really considered "carrying an offensive weapon in public"?. I honestly thought one would have to have the knife on their person for that to be the case.
I have a sincere concern as my employer issued a utility knife that I need for my work and it too has a locking blade. I make sure to put the knife in my carry-all bag and put the bag in the boot of my car when driving too and from work. Am I commiting an arrestable offense by having the knife in my car?.
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Just curious:
I assume it isn't illegal per se to own a pen knife. So therefore it isn't illegal to actually buy one.
Question: how does one legally get it home from the shop?
Oz (as was)
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Let's not get hysterical about carrying your Swiss Army Knife in public. The Criminal Justice Act 1988 does not ban or make pocketknives illegal, merely knives that have a cutting blade of 75mm or more and lockknives. There are plenty of exceptions for ctizens going about their lawful business. A penknife is not an Offensive Weapon - a baton is. There is some finely tuned legistlation that can make a penknife an Offensive Weapon or a Weapon of Offence (capitals are delibrate.) Trancer can read the Act at www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.
Let's keep this in proportion. The best example I can give is a tyre lever. This has legitimate presence in your car. Start carrying it in your pocket and into a pub you may be on dodgy ground, start swinging about your head and you deserve to be nicked.
These ar not the laws of a Police State they are laws of a civilized soceity. In Police States you and your knife would be "disappeared".
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Dont suppose the fact that the editor of the Spectator in which this article first appeared is currently in the spotlight for having an affair with the Home Secretary and alledgedly having children to him? No course not.
In the article it alledges that the Poice Officer told him to " Shut the **** up, you ********. Very unprofessional if its true but he must really have been nibbling away at his patience and sense of humour all day! Yes there is an underlying theme.
Of course the CPS are in on the conspiracy as well for authorising charge of an innocent and not cautioning a person of previous impeccable character.
It is easy for someone with venom to misuse the power of the media for their own ends as the Police will not respond so it becomes a one way story which will only be refuted in court and then its history.
Yes PU I had wondered wether baseball had become the new national sport!
Motoring connection. Can you recall when a chap called Stern who was the editor of one of the dailys eventually got his collar felt for hooting his horn at a bobby. Now wasn't that a saga?
Fullchat
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As to the pen knife, it could legitimately be part of a tool kit, and isn't necessarily a bad thing for a decent person to be carrying in their car, as opposed to on their person when out shopping say, cars break down - having tools to fix them isn't a bad thing
As to baton, I had cause to have one in the back of my car (I'd taken it off my kid brother who was acting an idiot at the time), when the police came to know about it, they did give me grief but they accepted the explanation eventually
It is common practise to carry a large spanner, or one of the heavier anti-theft devices under your driver seat, as a weapon of last resort if you break down in Brixton or similar, I don't see a Baton being that much different - although it leaves you in a weak position legally, I think this is a reasonable reaction from the ordinary public to some of the more out of control areas of our cities, I would say that off duty coppers do this as much as anyone
As to DVD, I agree if its true then the copper should be ashamed
However while I love the hard working coppers out there, I have come across some of the worse examples of poor policing
example:
- Intervene (with a neighbour) to stop some yobs throwing bricks at neighbours house, push them away as they threaten to hit
- Girlfriend rings 999
- Coppers arrive and separate teenagers in house from those outside by taking the ones inside to the other side of town, despite damage to roof tiles caused by bricks, no arrests made, no copper speaks to us
- Youths threaten myself and neighbours, and tell us our cars will be nicked that night
- My car nicked that night
- When reporting stolen car threatened with arrest if I make a citizens arrest as I threatened to do if I found them with my car
- Was told "their fathers are the local big time criminals we cannot arrest them or there would be a riot"
- My brother found car
- It had a parking ticket on it? Come on its registered stolen!
- Car taken for fingerprinting after we tell cops where it is
- Get threatened with arrest for having a "baton" in back of car, it was ornamental, and was in car for reasons above
- Police refuse to return car after a week
- Threaten official complaint if car not returned
- Car returned but only after we paid (under protest) a fee for police towing it to their compound (er they decided to do this not us)
- Owners of the private sector compound used to house cars taken by police for evidence screaming swear words at the top of their voices at us threatening all sorts of abuse for having the nerve to ask for our car back (subsequently I became very suspicious connected to lads fathers as above)
- Car found to have brakes tampered with when driving it home the bolts holding disk callipers on came out (they'd been loosened), when telling local inspector he went to great lengths to tell me how few coppers he had to police a big out of control place
- So either brakes tampered with by lads, and not found during time police fingerprinted car, or was done by compound owners
- Got solicitors letter written to cops pointing out that my life appeared to be in danger, and what were they doing about it? No reaction at all
- Had to issue a summons against police to get fee for towing back, pointed out holding car and demanding fee was extortion on their part (of course they paid up by return)
Despite having threats of injury made, having been followed round, had car nicked etc, none of the lads were nicked
Moved away shortly afterwards with very bad taste in my mouth, neighbour left traumatised and scared
example 2:
stopped by one regular bobby and 3 specials (2 young girls and a lad), they were all on foot, did the decent thing and stopped. "er I'm here giving these special constables some experience, do you mind if we look round your car?", number plate light out (they didn't know this when they'd stopped me for no reason), given circa 30 minute lecture on how dangerous having number plate light out was but thankfully no ticket - during which the specials go round car kicking the tyres with the full force they can muster, so hard the whole car is shaking (I wonder what Michelin would say about that). So an ordinary citizen held for more than 30 mins for the big crime of having no number plate light, and having the full display of how poor the special constables training must be.
Thankfully I have also seen lots of hard brave work by honest decent coppers, and for this I am very grateful
Think most coppers would agree the anti-motorist agenda from police political masters is alienating public, and handing out tickets which will lead to ban for driving safely but a few mph over limit is not the way to win the middle ground of public opinion.
Don't agree that Police need officer class as per the army, I'm afraid the army is not good because of the crappy junior officers from the dodgy public schools etc, its good because of its long traditions and the senior NCO's holding it together. Most decent regiments can and sometimes do function perfectly well with no officers present. The SAS for example is run by the NCO's don't let anyone tell you any different, and is much better for it. Actually accelerated graduate promotion in police forces has on the whole led to worse leadership, and appalling lack of common sense and leadership ability among the inspectors and superintendents. Public school or a degree do not make you a great leader - this is complete tosh, and General Mike Rose and others are very wrong on this issue. However the difference in standards between the best and worst police forces in this country is massive, something really needs to be done.
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Poor management isn't unique to the police or any other organisation. Nor is bad discipline. Nor bad decision making.
I sense you missed out on public school and a degree too?
I blame the parents... :-)
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On the issue of "police community support officers", I've had cause to spend a day across the road from King Cross watching about 12 of these characters and 2 ordinary coppers policing the traffic.
Over the course of the day they appeared to give many tickets out to people for minor cases of crossing the white line where the red lights were. I guess from this the "police community support officers" must be permitted to issue traffic tickets. They called in the 2 proper coppers for anything out of the ordinary.
Worst part of the whole thing was that over the course of the whole day the worst examples of people jumping past the white lines were, wait for it, police cars and buses, and there were precisely none of these characters stopped and hassled.
Looking at the situation as a bystander the real problem is poor road design and traffic light timing, handing out masses of tickets in this way will not improve road safety
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Don't agree that Police need officer class as per the army, I'm afraid the army is not good because of the crappy junior officers from the dodgy public schools etc, its good because of its long traditions and the senior NCO's holding it together. Most decent regiments can and sometimes do function perfectly well with no officers present. The SAS for example is run by the NCO's don't let anyone tell you any different, and is much better for it. Actually accelerated graduate promotion in police forces has on the whole led to worse leadership, and appalling lack of common sense and leadership ability among the inspectors and superintendents. Public school or a degree do not make you a great leader - this is complete tosh, and General Mike Rose and others are very wrong on this issue. However the difference in standards
The above sounds like the conversation one would hear (very)late at night at the Sgt's Mess bar.between the best and worst police forces in this country is massive, something really needs to be done.
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and indeed in police canteens, it is sad how little front line experience some inspectors and superintendents now have, often they are doing nothing but attending political meetings all day, and massaging crime figures in spreadsheets
then they're put in charge of policing a large football match or whatever, and surprise surprise they have no clue, thankfully the long term sergeants generally get the chance to keep this running
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and indeed in police canteens, it is sad how little front line experience some inspectors and superintendents now have, often they are doing nothing but attending political meetings all day, and massaging crime figures in spreadsheets then they're put in charge of policing a large football match or whatever, and surprise surprise they have no clue, thankfully the long term sergeants generally get the chance to keep this running
Exactly - police canteens and the Sgt's Mess bar but only from the less enlightened or inebriated.
Always a winner if you mention the SAS isn't it? General Sir Michael Rose(I won't list all his academic or gallantry awards) is very wrong? Well of course he was presumably also a "crappy junior officer from a dodgy Public School" and no doubt in all his SAS Appointments just stood by and let NCOs run his Troop, Squadron and Regiment.
Whilst I have little doubt you have knowledge of both Services, your insight into the Army and Police IMO leaves just a little to be desired.
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my insight is very good
just because my opinion is different to yours dont assume i have a lack of facts, or a poorly worked out rational basis for my opinions
the Army in my view suffers from an out of date view of society which still allows a class based, public shool centric, officer class, which does not in my view lead to the best people at the top, some regiments where this is less the case are better, and some regiments where this is more extreme than average are worse
and again this is an opinion which is shared not only in the NCO mess, but also amongst manner of the junior officers who didnt come from the same old public schools, who will have relatively little chance of career advancement for no fault of their own
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Oh dear, Mr chip on shoulder again.
It sounds as if your knowledge of army officers and public schools would equate to your knowledge on the subject of computational fluid dynamics!
The Army now has very few public school entrants, and the vast majority of current serving officers are state educated.
However, boys from Eton and Harrow have between them won over 20% of all VCs ever awarded, which displays how useless they must be considering what a small percentage of boys even go there, let alone join the Armed Forces.
Such famous public school lightweights such as Earl Alexander of Tunis, "H" Jones (Old Etonian and our last VC winner), David Stirling (SAS founder) really back up your argument, Deacon, old boy!
PS you need to brush up a bit on your writing and punctuation skills: probably comes from not having been to a proper school, what?!
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>>PS you need to brush up a bit on your writing and punctuation skills: probably comes from not having been to a proper school, what?!
PS in upper case with no punctuation, a colon instead of a semi-colon, inappropriate use of "proper" and an exclamation mark and a question mark together all represent inappropriate and improper usage.
Is that English ? Yes, but hardly its finest moment.
The Empire is crashing down around my ears [sigh]
aside from that;
1) Be nice to each other.
2) Don't get personal with each other.
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Thanks to Pugugly for the pointer to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 section 139 on knives -- it reassures me that my little girly Swiss Army knife is legal.
If anyone wants the direct link to that section, it's tinyurl.com/5ehsm
It does remind me, rather uncomfortably, that the day (many years ago) when I set off to town with my 8" kitchen knife in my briefcase was not one of my brighter days. Particularly when I didn't get to the knife-sharpener, but did still have the knife with me when I entered a govt building, with said knife undetected. I wish I could say with confidence that I'd be caught if I tried that now :(
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It appears I am ok with the knife I carry as long as the powers that be find my reasons "reasonable". Can't say I am filled with much confidence.
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most laws rely on the judge or magistrate to interpret some pretty vague words
resonable defence to speeding "was taking my wife to maternity ward"
reasonable defence to having knife "id just bought it and was taking it home"
thank goodness the judges get to keep their massive pensions without the taxes the rest of us pay eh>> It appears I am ok with the knife I carry as
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I don't think carrying a Swiss Army Knife in the car would have got yer man nicked, and even if it had it would not have taken much to convince a magistrate that it could was a legitimate tool to have in a car. A multi-tool I keep in the glove box is not much different to the said knife.
An extending baton is a different matter, even when kept in one's house it's sole purpose is as a weapon. There is no reason on earth to carry one about the streets with you. Police and magistrates know only too well that those who carry weapons for "self defence" are often the type who like to get their self defence in first.
Witness Kenneth Noye.
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sadly i think you'll find the gangland drug dealers are running big bills on pre-pay mobiles (phone company doesnt know who they are) and have weapons in their car that can be defended (eg large spanner)
its only low level mugs who will be carrying baseball bats or batons
and as i pointed out earlier having a baton can have a "reasonable" reason
as a side issue, stood in a police station recently as a bloke handed in a large calibe revolver that he had found, now if he had been stopped 5 minutes earlier, of course he was a genuine concerned citizen, incidentally the copper said it had happened a few times recently
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I still can't think of a reasonable reason for having a baton. Your reason was that someone else was acting like an idiot with it. Which means it must have been an offensive weapon, or capable of being one. So why drive round with it?
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"id just bought it and was taking it home"
Funny you should say that - DVD will no doubt give chapter and verse- there is a stated case on this somewhere.....
A baton is an Offensive Weapon. No argument. Go to jail do not pass Go. The only person who can be in possession is a Cop who also has to be ticketed.
PCSOs can issue tickets in some areas depends on the whim of the Chief Constable (he/she has the discretion to say what for). Watch this space in North Wales Police methinks.
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I have a 4 cell maglite sitting in the footwell of my car. It is there because I need to get new batteries for it and have taken it along so I get the right size...
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There you are its not an offensive weapon per se. But if you pick it up intending to whack a thief or fellow motorist it becomes one.
Think hard - very hard - before you follow that route.
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I've been reading this thread a trifle nervously because I carry a Stanley knife and spare blades in a toolbox in the car quite often when I have my handyman hat on. Interesting that a briefcase (or toolbox?) inside your car should be considered a public place.
Hawkeye
-----------------------------
Stranger in a strange land
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I think that PU's post immediately above yours answers that one. On the second point it is not the inside of your car that is considered a public place, anymore than the inside of your pocket would be. But you have the device in your car which IS in a public place.
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Spot on. A car is not considred a public place, but can be searched by the Police without a Warrant or with consent or when an Officer has reasonable grounds to suspect that there may be something unlawful in it ranging from a baseball bat to an SS20. You would be suprised how many master criminals give their willing (and written) consent when they are carrying prohibited items.
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so if you found your kid brother acting a **** with a baton, and your parents complained, and you physically restrained him, took the thing off him, and stuck it in the boot of your car, remained in the family house, later drove home, parked up, forgot about it, fully planning to dispose of it safely, you would be happy to be nicked by the police ?
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i also know at least 6 retired coppers who have their old truncheon handing on their living room wall alongside pictures of them in their old uniform, medals etc
so u think they should be nicked for this?
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Mmm, getting a little bit silly are we ?
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yes, just trying to point out that on the occasion i was caught with baton in my car it was really in the very best interests of society, and i would have been very vocal if it had gone to court
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" i would have been very vocal if it had gone to court"
But did you? Or did the police take a reasonable view?
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they did accept i had reason to have it in boot, at the time i was very cheesed off, car had been nicked, local thugs were running rings round the coppers etc, i could write for hours etc
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If a retired policeman had a truncheon hanging on his wall as a memento then any reasonable person would accept that as a legitimate reason for having one, rather like you or I could have a Samurai sword hanging over the fireplace, as indeed many people do. If you were found with either in a public place at two am, then peoples sympathy would tend to evaporate.
To go back to the start of this thread, I would feel very unhappy indeed to be sharing the roads with those people who keep extending batons in their car. People who carry weapons have a tendancy to use them to settle arguments, so more power to the police in these type of incidents.
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most people living in big cities now have something to be used if they need to defend themselves, along the lines of a wheel brace, large spanner, suitably sized wheel lock etc - and self defence is still legal
i think we are all kidding ourselves if we think this is not happening
and as i said earlier, youll find a massive spanner under the drivers seat of most off duty coppers cars
so the weapons are there, just people are not stupid enough to use something which is primarily a weapon, and have legitimate use for
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I must lead a very sheltered life then...not sure I know anyone that carries weapons by habit...
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N Samengo.
I was once told by a Policeman, that all coppers do a 30 second "attitude assessment" in their head when they first come into contact with someone.
From what I can see you failed that with the Police you met and also in my own mind.
Toodle-Pip.
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main thing with this guy is that it was a locking blade, and he did not exactly help himself with his attitude!!!
Im a student ive got time!!!
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I must admit, I did not know that knives that lock could break the law like this.
I have a big swiss army job with a locking blade, and a buck knife also with a locking blade. I had always thought that they were a safety feature. Having experienced a penknife "folding up" on me during use, it is a feature that I can highly recommend.
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i have been told that knives with blades below 6 inches are ok provided they do not lock as this classes them as an offensive weapon and not a pocket tool, although i would agree with your comment lawman that a lock is a safety feature. but this is just what ive been told as i sometimes have to carry a knife on scout camps for pioneering and other activities
Im a student ive got time!!!
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I am profoundly impressed that it takes you as long as 30 seconds to make up your....er......"mind" whatever that may constitute!
Given that admission as a general reflection of your intellectual capacity, it might be too much to ask you to read the Spectator article (quite long words in the spectator, and not many pictures).
Were you to be so able, you would realise that it took well over 30 seconds for me to welcome being stopped, fully accept the police's right to search my car, and commend them on their vigilance.
There is quite a long word that reflects the attitude that you display: it is, and I'll split it up to make it easier for you: pre-judice, derived from the Latin "pre judice", funnily enough, which means forming a judgement before having had the ability, or made the effort to judge the facts and/or available evidence, which arguably takes.......more than 30 seconds.
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I read the Spectator every week, and I clearly recall reading this article. Hair raising story. One has to read everything while remembering that the Speccie has a fairly right-wing slant on things, but this is just the same as any other mag or paper.
I think that the reason that the article was carried was to demonstrate the way in which law enforcement is now less to do with common sense and more to do with a tidal wave of legislation introduced as a result of one "crackdown" after another.
The behaviour of the Police as described in the article was plainly wrong. When I read the piece, I did wonder whether we were getting the whole story. Some in this thread have questioned the truth of the account and suggested that Mr Samengo may have a bit of an attitude. I can understand why he would want to reply to those posts.
It seems to me though that by resorting to abuse and by making snide remarks about the level of intelligence of those in this site, he is rather proving the point!
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>>I am profoundly impressed........than 30 seconds.
Dear god, if I'd been the copper I'd have banged you up for not practicing archery or something.
So, let me give to you what the policeman was not able, but perhaps wished, to offer;
What a snide little attitude you seem to exhibit, typically found in a man of little imagination or ability. I am surprised that your life has apparantly contained achievement, since such an attitude is more normally found in an empty life lacking of significance.
You appear to be a pain; a sarcastic, snide, irritating, tedious little pain. Your stories seem puerile, appear largely unbelievable and, where perhaps true, full of self-gratifying interpretation.
Your seemingly superior attitude and condescending comments, particularly around grammar and punctuation, are defeated by your own lack of performance in those areas.
And tonight, after giving you a chance to reply or not to this, I'm going to disable your registration because I don't want you here.
Or to put it another way - you are a plonker.
All in my very humble opinion, of course.
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I am quite willing to lend my agreement with Mark on this one....although quite how much value this gives the said opinion is another story
;-)
Could I be so bold as to venture - an "annoying plonker"?
Cheers,
--
Adam
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If NS is as well educated as he implies surely he should:
- know that having not one but two illegal weapons in his car is going to take some explaining
- calling a BiB a prize ****** just as he is beign let go is not a good move.
- be aware of the saying 'the whole world hates a smart ar**'
Don't think I'll be buying The Spectator anytime soon
Dan
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I don't think I have to add anymore to the thread.
NS has confirmed my thoughts with his owns words.
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Don't blame the spectator, its a great read! I would love to work there, I think they have been putting something in the tea there recently...
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As an afterthought about 12 years ago (Pre good Friday agreement)I checked in at Birmingham for a flight to Dublin without tipping out the odds and ends I didn't need from my briefcase. One was a Swiss army knife with a 2 3/4 inch blade (Still got it and just measured it).
Was found at the security check and after a few seconds thought was told - OK go ahead.
If it was OK to carry on to a flight in hand baggage then.....!
Ian
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Ho hum Mark.
I would lock this tiresome thread
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Ho hum Mark. I would lock this tiresome thread
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especially as this still appears to be sub-judice. if it goes before a jury, and i was selected to be on that panel, i would have to be excused as i am now prejudiced about the facts.
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Dear god, ... .... - you are a plonker. ..
>>
asssuming, of course, that the person who is writing here is the real nicky-s.
the person posting here is certainly demonstrating an attitude problem.
also, in my personal opinion, and having read the spectator article, the real nicky-s posible did not help his situation very much either.
that article clearly demonstrates the attitude problem which could do with some corrective treatment.
occasionally, some police will get some situations wrong. but imo, they generally get most things right. you only have to watch them in action on road-wars, or such other tv real-life documentaries, to witness how most police handle provocative behaviour with utmost patience. well done - is what i say to our police forces.
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I think that everything which needs to be said, has been. I can't see that much else is going to come out of this.
So, interesting and riveting though it has been, I am now locking this thread.
Any burning issues with this should be directed to my e-mail.
Thank you, and goodnight.
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p.s. but due to a request from one of our regular contributors who I do respect, I have not only stopped short of actually disabling any registrations, I'll also give this [currently] tedious thread a further 24 hours to restore itself to previously unachieved glory.
If its still a pile of tedious rubbish by this time tomorrow, then it will go permanently.
Its all in your eminently culpable hands.
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8< Snip! 8<
::Yawns::
A couple of observations on this thread as a whole.
Firstly, this site isn't owned by any right-wing publications.
Secondly, there is a time-honoured tradition of free speech in the UK. I am delighted to say that this site doesn't recognise that right if the speech in question is tedious, self-serving, argumentative or just plain egregious. The moderators, myself included, are here to keep things ticking along nicely. The fact that I have deleted this post doesn't mean I disagree with the content, only that I disagree with the likely consequences of leaving it here.
In a nutshell, no participant in this site has any more right to have a post remain unchallenged than any purchaser of a newspaper has a right to have their own editorial added to the paper. If you have something of value to the motoring community then it stays here. Arguments about class, privilege and the military abilities of old etonians* don't really fall into this category.
Thread locked. For good this time.
No Do$h
Backroom Moderator.
(*FWIW it is widely recognised amongst those who study such matters that Col.H made a right mess of things and the award of a VC raised more than a few eyebrows. Political expediency, perhaps? Just my opinion.)
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i think youll find some are complimenting your "creative" ability
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Who was it who said "You only get one chance to make a good impression"?
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Hopefully at 23.47 tonight!
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Actually it should have ended at 23.47 last night.....
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Actually it should have ended at 23.47 last night.....
Well I was getting outrageously drunk at a friend's wedding at the time so apologies for letting things drag on. Yes I used a cab and no, I haven't driven today.
No Do$h - Alfa-driving Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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