I don't think VM was angry or envious - I simply think he was pointing out what an unusual site it was. Which, lets be honest - you're not going to see that every day are you?
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Adam
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I'm with Adam - V-man has only pointed out an unusual and thought-provoking thing that he saw. Yes, it is unusual to see a learner driver in a 7-series BMW. And yes, you do have to wonder about the wisdom of whomever decided that it would be a suitable car to learn to drive in - regardless of what car the driver is intending to drive after they pass their test. And don't tell me the phrase "more money than sense" has never crossed your mind when Clarkson et al tell you that "this car costs £900,000"....
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I was quite careful in my original choice of language and carefully restated my position once again for RF Dalglish. I said "the phrase more money than sense MAY come to mind" as indeed it may for some people. NOT for me however 'cos I couldn't care less if Joe Soap is a millionaire and chooses to take his son/daughter out for driving lessons in a Maclaren F1. I don't think I'd go quite that far but that's irrelevant because the ONLY point I was trying to make is that it's highly unusal to see a learner in such an expensive car and I invited feedback from others who've seen similar or even more extreme examples.
Finally, quite why you think I would envy a BMW 7 series or anything else is beyond me. They're very nice cars but not on my shopping list even though I could go out and buy one tomorrow if I wanted. For the moment, I prefer to spend my money on other things and just for the record I have no problem with anyone spending their cash on whatever cars they want - provided they've paid their taxes just like the rest of us.
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Incidentally, someone above made a very good point about preparing learners for the type of car they're likely to own when they pass their tests. My three brothers and I have all have a stockbroking/ dealing background and have all owned or had access to very nice cars. On graduating up the ladder as a Eurobond dealer my yongest brother was offered the use of his boss's new Ferrari (can't remember what model) for the weekend. Unused to the enormous power difference over his ageing Renault 20tl, however, he promptly spun off a dual carriageway having put his foot down just a bit too hard and caused around £10k's worth of damage. It didn't put him off though 'cos he later bought a 911 at the age of 26.
As a money broker in the mid 80's I too spent a lot of time in dealing rooms occupied by young men (many teenagers/early 20's) who earned enough money to buy virtually any cars they wanted. Porsches, Ferraris, top spec BMW's etc. were common amongst the top earners many of whom were young lads who were still living with their parents. They spent their money on cars and had a great time - I drove a boring Toyota Corolla auto and never pulled any birds but bought my first house :)
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it's highly unusal to see a learner in such an expensive car....
Maybe it wasn't theirs. It could have been their partners, father/mother/sister, bosses, etc.
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It looked to me like it was (and is probably most likely to have been) a well-to-do dad and son scenario but who knows. The BMW looked like an MD's car (very well spec'd up) but then I was driving through the Otford Hills area and there sure is a lot of money in 'them thar hills!'
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Ilearnt to drive in 3 cars - Mother's Fiat Uno, Dad's Honda Accord and ...
a 1949 Mark VI Bentley.
Actually, the easiest of the 3 to drive. You could put it in any gear except 4th, and it would pull away. There was a (semi-)serious discussion at the time about taking my test in it, but abandoned when we thought the 3 point turn might be slightly difficult (the car is nearly 17 feet long and has the turning circle of an ULCC, not to mention no power steering).
O
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Learning in a Bentley eh!
Can't be many people who can say they've done that :)
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It depends just how competent they are to begin with.
In a private car you don't have dual-controls.
I saw my mum drive straight through a filling station and out the other side at over 20 mph when she mistook its entrance for a road she was supposed to turn into. I've wrestled with the handbrake with two girlfriends - one, on an industrial estate, completely failed to straighten up after a turn and we mounted the pavement and ended up in a bush; the other, on a public road, misjudged the tightness of a dogleg turning and chamfered the front corner of the car on a stone wall...
If you have £40-odd grand's worth of privately paid-for car and yet you are prepared to pay the extra insurance and let loose in it a 'pupil' who is as 'bad' as this, rather than buying a £250 Volvo 340 for them to at least learn the rudiments in, then yes, you do indeed have more money than sense.
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If you have £40-odd grand's worth of privately paid-for car and yet you are prepared to pay the extra insurance and let loose in it a 'pupil' who is as 'bad' as this, rather than buying a £250 Volvo 340 for them to at least learn the rudiments in, then yes, you do indeed have more money than sense.
Could it just possibly be that the BMW owner's 'pupil' wasn't as bad a driver as the cases you quote?
For instance someone who has taken lessons from a proper motoring school and is driving parent's car for road experience prior to test.
Apart from that many would not want their kids to drive an old banger apart from the problems and expence of owning one - parking etc.
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"Could it just possibly be that the BMW owner's 'pupil' wasn't as bad a driver as the cases you quote?
For instance someone who has taken lessons from a proper motoring school and is driving parent's car for road experience prior to test."
Of course - this is sincerely what I'd hope, and you're citing the case of someone who has more *sense* than money!
"Apart from that many would not want their kids to drive an old banger apart from the problems and expence of owning one - parking etc."
If it's just to learn in, then parking shouldn't be too much of a problem - room on the drive alongside the BMW(s)...
...unless it's the *shame* of a banger being on the drive!
;-)
Oooh the politics, the politics!!
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One of my friends from school learned to drive in a mercedes a class as a driving school car. Apart from that most people have wnated a crack in mum or dads flashy car( i know i have) but id have to question the cost of adding a learner to the insurance on a porsche or bmw i would have thought that to be ridiculously expensive.
and as for problems dring a banger my 17 year old golf is still goin fine and my brother has just taken it over to learn in, prob better to learn in than a new car as the 1.3 provides very little chance to get into trouble.
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but id have to question the cost of adding a learner to the insurance
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that made me think - i have never come across an accident that has involved a learner driver . on the other hand i know of many newly qualified drivers who have had an accident in their first year.
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That'll be because a learner has someone by their side who will always have more experience and often dual controls with which to assist and avoid problems. Someone above cited examples of avoiding accidents whilst driving with a learner by use of the handbrake or grabbing the steering wheel but more often the potential danger situation is avoided well in advance due to the advice given by the intstructor. Take that input away suddenly and the learner is all on their own and totally reliant on their own abilities which aren't yet properly honed. Minor errors of judgement are compounded by slower reactions and accidents often follow. It's one reason why, when Mrs V passes her test:
a) I'll be offering to accompany her (but keeping my mouth shut as much as possible) for the first few months (even though I think she's very capable);
b) Her new car won't be on order until we're sure she's fully competent and ready for it.
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What better than a beemer to learn off, learn all about the delight of RWD in these homogonised FWD days.
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What better than a beemer to learn off, learn all about the delight of RWD in these homogonised FWD days.
Only thing is- doesnt the 7 have an electronic handbrake (please correct me if I'm wrong)? In which case- how does acompanying driver stop the car if it all goes pear shaped?
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What better than a beemer to learn off, learn all about the delight of RWD in these homogonised FWD days. Providing of course that said BMW has the optional indicator pack fitted!
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\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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That'll be because a learner has someone by their side who will always have more experience
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which therefore may explain why it makes more than sense money
a. learner drivers are safe drivers, and your car is safe in their hands.
b. insurance may be lower to add a learner to your policy
c. in case of the remote chance of a learner having an accident, it is better to be in the armour plated tank of an bmw7 series.
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I learned to drive partially in my Father's BMW, it was a company car, and I was insured automatically without any special arrangement. It was insured for anyone even on a provisional license. It was a very large international company and they probably underwrite their own insurance?
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I found it suprisingly cheap to add my teenage children, with provisional licences, to my insurance as long as they were not the main driver.
Certainly in economic terms it made more sense than getting another car(banger or not) SWMBO drives an automatic so it would have meant 3 cars.
My cars are NCB protected so it wouldn't have been a huge penalty if they did have an accident.
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I learned to drive partially in my Father's BMW, it was a company car, and I was insured automatically without any special arrangement. It was insured for anyone even on a provisional license. It was a very large international company and they probably underwrite their own insurance?
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If they're anything like my employer, they use an offshore captive which might pay up to the first £1m and also have a massive excess (£20k). Consequently the insurance company whose name is at the top of the certificate never (or hardly ever) pays out any money, the captive only has to pay its costs (not make money for shareholders) and the cover is (comparatively) cheap. Though you should be aware that the employer will most likely make it a requirement that they are notified of (and allowed to reject)any drivers who are not employees as "cover applies only when driving with the Company's permission."
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I learned to drive partially in my Father's BMW, it was a company car, and I was insured automatically without any special arrangement. It was insured for anyone even on a provisional license.
i am still waiting to have a go in my dads saab 93 that he got just before i passed but company will only insure people over 21, so just 2 months more!! (no dad i havent forgotten)!!!
as for the newly passed drivers having accidents i have to unfortunately say it is true, because we all think we can do it all and there is usually something that happens that we're not quite ready for yet that if your lucky only gives you a scare but unfortunately can lead to a written off car and pos person.
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There is a world of difference between learners in the first few weeks and a learner getting some final practice in the days or weeks leading up to the test. A learner in his/her early days, still getting used to pedals etc would be a risk in a high powered car.
As far as companies restricting use of higher powered cars for sons / daughters of employees that was prompted, in the case of my company, by a couple of very expensive accidents of young drivers with a carload of young passengers writing themselves off in fast cars. Learners were excluded as part of that change.
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"which therefore may explain why it makes more than sense money"
Not sure what that means
"a. learner drivers are safe drivers, and your car is safe in their hands"
I think some instructors may disagree.
b. insurance may be lower to add a learner to your
policy"
Wasn't for me - cheaper to have Mrs V. learning in her own car & insurance.
"c. in case of the remote chance of a learner having an accident, it is better to be in the armour plated tank of an bmw7 series."
The flip side of that coin is though that any accident (however minor) is likely to cost ££££'s more though.
I'd agree that a 7 series is likey to be safer than a Punto for example though and that's why I wasn't condemning either the learner or the owner of the 7 series, JUST making the point that it is a very unusual thing to see even in affluent areas where executive cars are relatively common.
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Cardew, Dalglish,
I refer you to the opening line of my (yesterday's) post: It depends just how competent they are to begin with.
Chances are Backroomers have had a long-time interest in cars, and engender such an interest in their offspring. The three ladies I mentioned had absolutely no knowledge of or interest in cars and, honestly, seriously struggled to differentiate between ANY two examples beyond "It was big/small" or "It was red/blue".
I wasn't condemning the owner/learner of the 7-series either. All I'm saying is, with certain 'pupils', you never quite know what you're going to experience. The girlfriend who clipped the stone wall with the front corner of the car did so on during the practice session with me *the day before* taking the test, which her 'proper instructor' had put her in for.
The car was a semi-banger: I hammered out the wing, repaired the bumper and indicator lens, didn't bother with the bonnet, and slapped a bit of paint on.
You wouldn't have wanted to leave a brand new 7-series in that state though, and I bet it would have cost a grand or two (or three?) to make good, i.e. rather more than a £250 Volvo and some 3PO insurance !
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You come on here and make a polite and interesting posting and some people will still try to disagree for the sake of it.
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Got no problem with anyone disagreeing with me especially if they're disagreeing with what I've actually said as opposed to what they've assumed is the hidden subtext of my comments.
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volvoman,
To be fair it was the implied criticism in the "more money than sense" statement that has drawn comment and led to the discussion.
C
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Yes Cardew and if they'd read and understood the word 'MAY' after the word 'sense' they might have thought again :)
Clearly as with so many issues there are good arguments both for and against the proposition that putting a learner in a luxury, high powered car MIGHT be an example of someone having more money than sense. On the other hand that learner may not have passed the test but may have grown up driving all sorts of high powered cars and be a far more capable driver than any of us will ever be. It's impossible to say unless you know each individual set of circumstances and I'd have thought that was fairly obvious. What seems to have been largely missed here is the entire point of the thread which was to get a measure as to how unusual this was.
The debate about whether learners should be restricted to certain categories of vehicle is another but very interesting issue and I suppose if I had to vote on it I'd probably go for a situation in which learners and provisional drivers were restricted to less powerful cars for a time but the insurance system already achieves that aim partially so I don't see it as a priority for yet more legislation. Far more important, I feel, for the driving test to include motorway driving although there are practical problems with that idea.
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Volvoman,
I did see the 'MAY' in your post which is why I said 'IMPLIED' criticism.
The wisdom of letting provisional licence holders drive an upmarket saloon proved an interesting discussion point - for a discussion forum. IMO it has hardly been an argument; although I wonder what would have happened if you had seen L plates on a Landcruiser!!!!
C
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Cardew - Rest assured I understand what implied means and wasn't referring to you in my previous post :)
Landcruiser - Why? My point was really about the cost of the car NOT the type of car. That BMW must have cost anything from £50-75k and that's a hell of a lot of money.
My views on choice of ownership may be that I wouldn't want a big 4x4 but that's just my view and who cares. That doesn't mean I hate them and want them banned. I dare say plenty of people wonder why my wife chose to marry me :) That's their prerogative isn't it.
The safety debate is interesting because it's about balancing the safety of the driver/ occupants as opposed to other road users and pedestrians. So yes a learner might well be safer in the BMW7 series but pose more of a risk to others for various reasons some of which have been aired above. What's the answer to this? I don't know. I saw a very interesting programme (Fifth Gear possibly) contrasting the safety of a leading MPV and its previous variant. They smashed one into the other and whilst the safety features of the former protected the occupants far, far, better they also apparently contributed significantly to the damage done to the older car and its occupants. I suspect this is an insoluble problem.
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Landcruiser - Why? My point was really about the cost of the car NOT the type of car.
Volvoman,
I understood your point about the value of the car.
I was TIC and referring to the 'debate' in the beefiest SUV thread and those who felt even someone with a full licence shouldn't drive SUVs! let alone L drivers.
C
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