"How about some more realistic slogans for bus users then:"
The loony always sits next to me.
Surely a few complaints to the ASA should kill that ad off? Especially considering the innocuous ones they have stopped.
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Not forgetting of course:
'My other car goes through 3 different counties before depositing me at where I want to be'
--
Adam
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My other car is a bus and doesn't go anywhere I want to go at any time I want to go.
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And yet, And yet.
The bus costs a pound for a single journey £380 for an annual pass. No £5 a day for station or town centre car parks, no tax, insurance or unexpected bills. Somtimes it's stuck in the jam of cars but now and then it whips down its own bit of private red road. Not using it frees up the road for folks who have no choice but to drive. Sold the second car, more space in the garage.
Well I would if i lived in London anyway!!
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"Well I would if i lived in London anyway!!"
Exactly! I cannot get a bus from home to work 'cos there ain't any!
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Exactly! I cannot get a bus from home to work 'cos there ain't any!
"My other car only exists in the minds of advertising people"
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Mmmm next time I get called to a Custody Suite at 3.00am I'll go and wait at the bus stop and get there for around 9.00am then I'll send the Legal Aid bill with the "Time Waiting" filled out to that effect and of course I'll get paid.
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My other car is a bus and it is unroadworthy, has no seat belts, no airbags, no aircon and a nutter driving!
Ironically I can walk to work faster than a bus gets there.... 35 minutes by bus, 25 minutes on foot and < 10 minutes by car. Assuming average pay of £10 ish an hour then you waste the equivalent of £4.75 ish per journey if you take the bus rather than take the car. If everyone took the slow public transport route then the loss to the economy would be immense. That time has to be caught up eventually and it either comes off working days or family time.
teabelly
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If everyone took the slow public transport route then the loss to the economy would be immense
Hmm. If everyone took public transp, then there wld be a lot more buses on the raod, so you'd not have to wait long to get one ... and there'd be a bigger choice of roiutes to get you to our destination. Plus the roads would be a lot less clogged, so the journeys would be much faster.
As to the time equation, it's a more interesting one than you might think. Add up the total annual cost of a car, then divide by post-tax hourly income to get number of hours it costs to own the car ... so then add in the number of hours spent driving it. Divide that total into the distance covered, and the overall speed of a car looks a whole lot slower than you'd imagine.
There are many advantages to cars ... but when it comes to time, the advantage of the car is mostly that it allows you to repackage time, rather than to save time. But not many drivers do the calculations ...
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Dangerously close to agreeing with NW here...
However, one point that few people take in to account is that we no longer have a *public* transport system in this country. Trains to a degree but especially buses are run as a business for the profit of shareholders. This means that they cannot provide a service to the public as this will always involve some cases where that service does not result in a profit.
In areas where lots of people need moving from one place to another buses and trains are by far the most sensible approach. However, what we do not have are services for less busy areas, a good network of places to change from car to other modes of transport, nor joined up public transport that meets up and allows people to get where they are going without much hassle.
Living in a large conurbation I should not need a car for the vast majority of journeys I make and it would be more convenient for me in many ways if I did not have to use one. However, as has been pointed out elsewhere, when I did use the bus I spent at least an hour a day extra travelling compared to what I do in the car as the links are simply not there.
Motoring and public transport should complement each other in many ways but unfortunately PT is so bad in many cases that they don't and people will only put up with so many bad experiences before they finally give in and take the option that is immediately easier.
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Motoring and public transport should complement each other in many ways but unfortunately PT is so bad in many cases that they don't and people will only put up with so many bad experiences before they finally give in and take the option that is immediately easier.
Very true ... and unfortunately, we don't have viable options between car-ownership and being carless. So the only way to get transport for those journeys for which the bus/train doesn't work is to take sole ownership of a car. And since most of the costs are overheads, it then ends up making more economic sense to use it for the journeys where public transport really is available.
A friend in the Netherlands is part of a non-profit car pool, and can quite economically get a car when she actually needs it. Unfortunately, nobody has yet suceeded in making that idea work in the UK ... so the country has zillions of cars which spent most of their time parked.
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There is a myth around that in the days before mass car ownership public transport was efficient, frequent, reliable and readily available.
It wasn't.
It was just as appalling as it is today, which is why we all opted for the expense of buying and running a car.
As for what someone said about if they lived in London they would use the bus more, well I spent most of my life in London and believe me, you wouldn't.
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My 3rd mayor elections in E14 and there is still no bus from the City (Holborn or Bank) to Docklands. One financial lung of the capital to the other. One would imagine it ought to be most logical transport link.
Instead I see even more no.25's queueing on High Holborn in endless half empty bendy chains one after another. If only Transport For London actually covered entire London...
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Let's see. Total annual cost of my car: 570 insurance + 165 tax + 500 maintenance (expensive car :-) ) + generous £80 pm on petrol = £2225. If I had a cheap to own & very economical car then public transport becomes even more expensive in comparison. A group 2 car would probably cost £250 a year to insure, £110 to tax and £25-£30, in fuel which would bring the yearly total to: £970 assuming £250 yearly spend on maintenance. Time spent commuting by car is 20 mins a day ( I have assumed 52 weeks as I can't be bothered factoring in holiday!) The mileage isn't relevant as they're for the same journey. So the total cost of car is £2225 + £867 = £3092 (assuming same cost as bus previously). Bus would be £3.50 a day bus fare + £9.50 a day time cost = £3380
Car wins by a reasonable margin and this is just for commuting which is where public transport is the most cost effective. If I had the economical car then the car cost would be £970 + £867 bringing the yearly total to £1837 which is substantially cheaper than the bus.
For some like me car driving is enjoyable so it isn't such lost time as being sat on a bus :-)
teabelly
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Teabelly's calculation seems to assume the car is a gift, or completely written down. Raw figures are about right for my BX now, but it cost £7500 in '93 and will soon need replacing, probably with a 3yo Picasso or Berlingo, £5k++. Finance cost/lost interest and depreciation are by far and away the biggest component of motoring cost for the majority. Even on a bangernomics basis you'd need to add something for replacement.
Also assumes the massive (tax free) perk of free parking at work. I'd also queery for how much of the population travel to work time is truly time that would otherwise be paid at salary or client chargeable rates.
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I buy future classics so I usually find depreciation is next to nothing :-) To be strictly accurate on the cost of commuting as I included total petrol cost rather than just the commuting cost then petrol would be £40 pm. Loss of interest on £6500 @ 5% pa (after tax) would be £325 so it evens itself out in that respect. PT doesn't stand a chance for longer journeys, or journeys where more than one person are going. I see friends all over and PT just doesn't cut it. If two of us want to go to Manchester then the train is less trouble but the £5 a day parking cost makes you think about taking the car instead as it makes it £21 for two of you which is about the same as the petrol + parking cost at the other end.
For the cheap car then fuel cost would be about £15pm max.
There isn't free parking at work, parking permits are paid for. It costs me about £25 a year which is pretty reasonable.
Max cost of car per year = £4k Not using PT = priceless :-)
teabelly
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>I'd also queery for how much of the population travel to work time is truly time that would otherwise be paid at salary or client chargeable rates.
Anyone who can/is inclined to take work home could do it, depending on the work obviously--chefs might have trouble making huge vats of soup, for instance. For me it means I get to do work on the train that I would otherwise do in the evening/early morning. Often it's boring stuff--answering emails and so on--other times it's actual editing or less often writing. Cheaper mobile computing has made this a lot easier than it was, but people do paperwork, read reports, prepare for meetings too; it's not uncommon. And then there is the dreaded business phone call, which is still legal on moving trains of course.
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Judging by my last weeks trip on the evening train from London to Brighton the business phone call is not just legal it has been made compulsory.
I was driven insane within five minutes in a packed compartment by mobiles going off every where and inane conversations ensuing, people playing computer games with stupid sound effects and of course the chinka chinka chinka of supposedly PERSONAL walkmen. AAAAAAARGH
The seats are so small you can only get one cheek on and you cannot work for NOISE.
I can't remember the last time I was on a bus.
Give me the car any day.
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Ignoring differences in opinion on the value of time, I'd be interested to know what your journey would be that you cannot buy some sort of period ticket that would bring the bus cost down considerably. Certainly within Greater Manchester you can get weekly tickets on all the major operators, GMPTE yearly bus tickets and a GMPTE yearly rail ticket, the most expensive of which is around £600.
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Ignoring differences in opinion on the value of time, I'd be interested to know what your journey would be that you cannot buy some sort of period ticket that would bring the bus cost down considerably. Certainly within Greater Manchester you can get weekly tickets on all the major operators...
Conurbations like Greater Manchester are fortunate in that they have a reasonably comprehensive bus network and a passenger transport executive that provides some degree of regulation, information, and through ticketing.
Smaller towns and cities are less fortunate. Here in Leicester, you have to buy single tickets for each leg of a journey, even if they are with the same operator. It is possible to buy daily and weekly tickets but these are only valid on one operator's buses. When I travel by bus I don't even bother to buy a return ticket because doing so will restrict my choice for the return journey. Most bus routes are from an outlying area to the city centre. Where the routes do cross the city, the operators split the two legs on the evening services so that they are served by two separate buses with no co-ordination of the timetable. I've no idea why they do this but I'd have thought evening travellers would have more reason to cross the city centre (visiting friends and family across town) than those making journeys during the day (going to work in the city centre).
Returning to Manchester, I was a student there after spending my first 18 years in rural Lincolnshire, which has virtually no buses. I therefore discovered the delights of public transport at the age when most people are itching to get their first set of wheels. I'm sure that experience caused me to delay getting my first car until I was well into my thirties.
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Let's not also forget to take into account the fact that for some people it's also possible to work on a bus or train. For instance I have to commute twice a week at the moment using the train. The return journey takes an hour, plus about half an hour of walking. The walking saves me going to the gym in my "spare" time and using a pda I can do my writing and editing work while I travel. The train journey costs about £4, and for that hour's work I can make £50 on a good day, £20 at worst. The car journey takes roughly the same time, though it's less predictable, but would "cost" me between £20 and £50 simply in lost time. No contest.
I've done the same using the bus.
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Let's not also forget to take into account the fact that for some people it's also possible to work on a bus or train
Same here, Chris. I work from home, so I don't have to commute, but I do at least two long rail trips every week.
My time on the train is used to prepare for whatever meeting I'm going to, whether that's re-reading the background documents, preparing my own contribution, or cross-checking things with colleagues.
In a car, all the travelling time is "dead" time, but on public transport most of it is productive time. If I was driving, I'd often have to allow extra time to refresh myself in the material before I arrived.
Where the car wins for me is on journeys which are horrendously slow on public transport, with lots of changes (standing-around time is as non-productive as driving time).
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BUSES=
mobile care in the community homes!
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"Add up the total annual cost of a car, then divide by post-tax hourly income to get number of hours it costs to own the car ... so then add in the number of hours spent driving it. Divide that total into the distance covered, and the overall speed of a car looks a whole lot slower than you'd imagine."
I don't quite get all this working out the cost of your car in terms of your hourly wage and travelling times.
I rather need a car for reasons other than commuting to work: an as-limited-as-possible ferrying of kids to/from their mates and certain activities, taking ancient in-laws on day-trips out, transporting step-children half way up the country to hand over to their father, getting the quarter-ton of food from the supermarket every week... -okay, admittedly I could get the shopping with a taxi, but once you've bought a car in the first place...
and thus my point: I'd start and finish work (itself) at the same time each day whether I travelled by car or by bus, so the only 'time cost' is my own time, travelling, and in my circumstances it takes about 7 times as long by bus as by car. As it happens, when the weather is fine, I cycle, which only takes 3 times as long as the car, costs me nothing, and saves the car's fuel. But if the weather's foul, well, I already have that car I've bought for all the other purposes anyway.
I don't have a dishwasher though.
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While I love cars and driving there are some cases where it simply doesnt make sense....It wont apply to everyone but thats life.
My wife and I both work in the centre of Oxford, no employer parking, extortionately priced limited public parking and horrendous traffic in the mornings and afternoons. The choice (realistically) is down to:
1) park and ride (55 minutes door to door)plus car running costs for 30 miles and approx £2.50 per day parking and bus.
2) bus or train both approximately 60 minutes door to door at either £3.40 or £4.40 return.
My wife and I both use a combination of 2) since this allows us to keep the car use down to a minimum however if we need the flexibility we use 1).
The bus is much more reliable than the trains so we use this where timing is important (getting to school or afterschool club on time).
My personal view is that it is up to the individual....we prefer to keep motoring costs down and only run a single car despite two reasonable salaries. I enjoy my driving at weekends and when forced to drive to meetings elsewhere as I dont get bogged down in a daily nose to tail queue every other day.
And no I dont live in a major town...just a small rural town of 3500 people in West Oxfordshire that happens to straddle a mainline railway.
StarGazer
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NW, used to do the same myself, however thats ok if you can sit down or dont have someone crammed in next to you. Not so easy when you are invading each other's personal space on some of the more 'popular' routes. Let alone any Confidentiality issues about what you may be working on.
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If I worked normal office hours I wouldn't dream of driving to and from work.
The single bus fare is 70p. All day parking in the NCP near my place of work is £9.40. Nutters on the bus notwithstanding, there really is no contest.
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As to the time equation, it's a more interesting one than you might think. Add up the total annual cost of a car, then divide by post-tax hourly income to get number of hours it costs to own the car ... so then add in the number of hours spent driving it. Divide that total into the distance covered, and the overall speed of a car looks a whole lot slower than you'd imagine.
Ah - but you need to multiply that result by the fact that there isn't a bus going my way, add the fact that since school days I hate them with a vengeance, and then divide by the likelihood of spotting my neighbour waiting for his bus and giving him a lift.
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We have excellent bus services in our area - every 10 minutes on our route - and there are also one or two services where you can ring up and book to collect you within close proximity on their journeys.
So it's not as far fetched as it might sound...:-)
Mind you the buses don't always go in the direction or area I want to go unless using two or more bus routes each way, although my club (and hence reasonable cost Guinness) is, thankfully, on a direct route.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What's for you won't pass you by
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Oh - I forgot that when my business partner and I were about to leave the office on Wednesday before attending a different office for a meeting yesterday, we were asked to take some files with us that needed to be transferred. 5 archive boxes of files, in fact.
Now, he prefers public transport to the M25. So my suggestion that I put three boxes in the boot of my car and that he carry two boxes was not welcome.
Lucky one of us was driving!
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A guy I used to work with actually did work in the car while he was driving. He took a dictaphone with him and then gave the secretary a tape to transcribe when he got back. I wouldn't fancy sitting beside someone doing that on the train!
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