Nobody has more respect for the police than I have. I would not and could not do their job and I have the utmost respect for the guys doing the thankless tasks and that includes the ambualnce and fire services.
The thing that annoys and upsets people generally is not the wait clearing away the casualties but the related investigation and insisting on taking as long as they deem necessary for an investigation irrespective of the effect on the thousands of other motorists that their decision affects.
Mind you - I would be interested to see the full report into the four car crash referred to above...
Just as a matter of interest I read a few years back of a police driver in South London who had shunted into the back of another car. You or I would have been deemed responsible for such a rear end shunt but said officer was deemed not responsible after a full investigation by traffic officers. Apparently he had just left the police garage where he had inadvertantly stepped in some oil causing his foot to slip off the brake.... It is good to see that justice was done - or am I being cynical?
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Why don't the police have the same *rules* as the Train police? That being if they have an incident, they aim to get the service running again within 90 minutes of it occuring.
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A different question which arises from this - I remember learning several years ago when studying insurance law at university that the police carry their own liability (i.e. self-insured) & that the relevant police authority has to put its hand in its pocket in the event of an accident like this one - is this still the case?
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As I recall most public bodies--schools, universities etc--are self insuring because the cost of insuring against damage, theft etc. with an insurer would be uneconomic even if they could actually get cover.
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Most road incidents don't block the road for four hours either. I was two cars back from a Ka that spun and hit the central reservation on the M6 last week (no other cars involved, nobody seriously hurt) and we were stopped for half an hour. Others at the back of the tailback probably stopped longer, but there was nothing the police could do about that. Had it been three cars it would have been different.
In any case was the service running again within 90 minutes of Hatfield? As I recall the speed limit on the whole rail network was lowered for months after that one.
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Ok, I\'ve removed some of this conversation.
Whilst what i have removed was not offensive, and the points were valid, I feel that its getting too emotive.
I have no wish to see valued contributors falling out with each other.
I have no issue with the conversation resuming/continuing, but could we please keep the emotion out of it as far as is possible.
If you feel one of your notes was unfairly removed, then you may well have a point and I apologise. I have retained them if you would like them back.
Mark
p.s. And for those people who are going to start talking of facism, censorship, free speech, whatever - get over it. E-mail us if you have a point.
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I recall a post from Growler where, following a RTA involving a shootout resulting in two deaths, the entire scene was cleared in about 20 minutes.
As it should be.
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Some very emotive statements being made here as if the police deliberately take longer than necessary to clear the roads. Why would they do that? It is surely in their interest to clear things as soon as possible. We are also making judgements when we know none of the facts. Driving past the scene or driving via a diversion or sitting in a jam gives us no right to say that "things should have been cleared in 20 minutes" (post above, would you really prefer Philippino police here, who, from what Growler has said in the past, just need their palms greased occasionally to turn a blind eye?)
"all the investigations in the world, crime scene or not are not going to make someone come back to life." as a reason for not investigating fully is not very sound either - would you say therefore that murders should not be investigated? The police are no doubt bound by very detailed rules (as Mark pointed out) so that proceedings can be taken where necessary and which of us would say "don't bother too much, just sweep up the bits" if it meant that we could lose our jobs?
Motorists are anyway their own worst enemies. How many of you have been stuck in jams because, although your carriageway is perfectly clear, people are slowing right down to have a gawp at an accident in the other carriageway?
I have to say that if it was a member of my family killed or injured in a crash, I wouldn't care if the road was closed for 20 mins, 20 hours or 20 months as long as the police investigated the cause properly.
Come on guys, give the cops a break and acknowledge that in the vast majority of cases our police do a damn good job (even if I also think that Notts police have been b...... awful over my son's speeding offence!)
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I was stuck on the Northbound M6 near Burton MWSA a couple of weeks ago as a result of an eleven vehicle pile up. No one was killed but there were a few injured. It took just under an hour for the emergency services to attend and remove the injured. The police had closed the previous junction to avoid tailbacks and then cleared a route through the mess (suitcases all over the carriageway as well) which was kept open for about 20 minues to clear the waiting traffic. The carriageway was then closed to allow the accident investigator to do his job.
Yes, I was frustrated at the delay but was impressed with the what the police had achieved within an hour and the way in which they managed the situation. Accidents are rarely that, they are usually caused by someone and I feel that the police are correct in trying to establish the cause and, if necessary, prosecuting the guilty party. The driving standards of many who use UK motorways generally leaves a lot to be desired and those that do cause accidents should be made accountable.
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" midlifecrisis - I take exception to this post by HJ. As somebody who investigates serious and fatal accidents, I am sick of being abused by ignorant and selfish people, at the same time as a bo................"
I too am sick of the rediculous amount of time spend investigating these accident scenes, some major trunk road can be closed for a day just because there has been a crash, imagine if swathes of city centres were closed for several hours to a day, every time there was a fight at night!?
This has only happened in recent years, it's not the fault of the individual workers, but of the baffoons in charge, the same ones who tell us there are no Police when we need them. There are no traffic Police on Patrol cleaning the streets of scum, but a swarm of them looking at scrape marks and glass after they have left a trail of destruction in their wake - it's all wrong! rotten to the core.
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You are all right and all wrong!
Yes, there are times when the police take far too long to clear up a roadway and permit traffic to flow. Equally, there are times when they need to ascertain the absolute truth (as best they can) as this can have a major bearing on Court proceedings.
However, there are times when the screw necks cause the problem by gawping at the carnage. WOuld it no be possible to erect simple lightweight screens so that gawpers would have nothing to see, and the traffic then moves smartly through a constriction and aviods the worst hold ups.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Gosh. I'm away for a day and look what I miss....
I have to add one brief thought. We have criticised "the police" in general without getting very specific. In my direct experience, which is admittedly and thankfully not extensive, individual police officers have almost universally shown the high standards that we would expect of them. However, it has been clear that the system within which they must work has prevented those standards from influencing the police response.
I said "almost". The exceptions had "senior officer material" written all over them. Growler has it spot on with the monkey tree analogy, sadly.
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I heard this morning yet again the M25 near the Dartford Crossing has been closed for 6 hours due to a serious accident.
Mark was quite correct in removing part of this thread as a number of us got a bit too involved in the emotional side of the debate against the practical side of how best to prevent or manage these incidents for all those affected.
Dee Jay has made some very practical suggestions based on personal involvement and experience.Who do we have to convince to bring them in to operation?
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There's a bus driver at the same depot that I work at who was involved in a fatal collision with a motorbike pillion passenger. He's in a right state about it.
Yes, the police DID close the road for about four hours to investigate. I personally think that the relatives of the poor woman who died (especially her three children) have every right to know exactly what happened. Also, the bus driver involved also has a right to know exactly what happened - he told me that it was so quick he still does not fully know what went on.
All these people moaning about a road being closed for a bit and being slightly (in the grand scheme of things) inconvenienced. Jeez, at least you lot actually got home, walked through your front door and greeted your nearest and dearest. Not something the pillion passenger will be doing again....
(Sorry if I've got a little emotive here - some peoples' selfishness really annoys me)
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Like the selfishness of those who's moment of inattention leads to accidents?
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Not all of us can be perfect all of the time...
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I think these people who want the roads (which are the arteries urban life) closing for rediculous lengths of time (the four Police didn't injure anyone, so its not about being politically correct and touchy feely with the bereaved) are the same poeple who can't accept that people die in hospitals and always want big enquiries there, they are also the people who dump loads of flowers at accident scenes, instead of the person's gravestone.
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Ok this has cropped up before, and I commented before, and I will comment here too.
Yes ok a fatal accident is not a pleasant place. Scraping up the bits, or cutting the chared or mutilated remains out of a crushed cube is a harrowing experience for all those involved. Visiting the loved ones or family to tell them the news is a terrible thing to have to do. Yes a serious accident is a mess of emotions, the scene of a terrible human tragedy. The police, ambulance and fire crews all do a wonderful job and should be applauded.
However.
The police are working under rules. They shut the road for lengthy periods of time for one reason. Its nothing to do with the human tragedy aspects, nothing to do with respect for the dead, the bereaved, nothing to do with providing closure for family and friends, its for one reason only. Blame
Its done to apportion blame. Find a guilty party, Gather the required evidence to pin the blame on a guilty party. Someone died, someone will pay. Someone MUST be dragged to the gallows.
And you know what? most of the time its not worth it because:
If its a kid with a string of motoring offences against his name and a history of bashing old ladies over the head to nick a purse and pay for his drug habit he will get a slap on the wrist.
If its an honest motorist who made a mistake once in his life he will get crucified, loose his job and have years of nightmares.
Thats why we get brassed off sitting in 12 hour queues. We know why its being done and what the outcome will be.
(and yes, most of us offer a quick prayer it wasnt us involved)
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