>>How much to run a banger? £50 per month + repairs + tax?
You've excluded tax from your calculations on your A4, so I think it's only fair to exclude it from the banger calculation!
With a banger, there are no repairs. They're either servicing items, just as with your new car (pads, tyres, bushes, exhaust) or you get your £100 from the scrappy (after buying another one the same, and keeping ths useful bits from the old car - wing mirrors, tyres that are better than on the new car, etc.) OK, you'll probably not need to buy any of these parts for 18 months, but when you do, you'll get Audi to fit genuine audi parts, whereas I'll get a backstreet garage to fit OEM parts. So I bet you spend *lots* more on servicing than I do. Oh yes, and hoooooooow much do Audi charge for an oil change?
You also don't have to pay for chipsaway to come to tidy the car up. (If you don't pay, then your depreciation increases.) And Murphy's law applies to shopping trollies and new cars.
And you don't have to pay for - the killer - the cost of capital.
Let's say that you have to borrow money to buy that new car. If you have a mortgage, then you *have* borrowed money to buy that new car. £25k @7% = £1750 p.a., so an extra £150 per month. I know you *could* have borrowed it on interest free credit cards & moved the balance every 6 months, but has anybody *ever* done that?
If you don't have a mortgage/car loan, then you lose what you could have earned in interest. Say 5%, less 40% tax, so 3% on 25k. So £62 per month extra (which you have already included)
As for what my banger costs me in depreciation, I paid £750 for a car with 12 months MOT that is probably worth £300 to £500 to a scrappy. So £40 per month at worst - and I hope to get 2 years out of it at least, so £20 per month.
And then there's insurance. I bet fully comp insurance costs you £50 a month more than third party only would cost you.
So: banger £20-40 per month
New car: depreciation & lost interest:£269
Insurance £50
So: DE's new car £319.
Cost for Mapmaker to run DE's new car £419 per month (as the money would be borrowed). So £5,000 per annum. Plus Audi servicing rates. Instead of between £250 and £500, plus some choice swear words!
For a car that probably only moves its wheels twice a week, if it is lucky, that's £50 per shot. That's a *lot* of money. For going round the corner to Tescos.
But there again, I wouldn't want my builder to turn up in a Pikey-mobile. So it's not really an option for you.
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Real life figures for a couple of my bangers:
1. Renault 21 Savanna. £850 + £300 service including cam belt & some brake pipes + new rotor arm £3.50 & second hand windscreen wiper motor (fitted by AA man!) £1200. Lasted 2 years, and I gave the car away to a poor family. £50 per month, *including* servicing - and throwing the car away at the end. Maybe 50k problem-free miles.
2. Mk ii Polo. £200. 12 months motoring. New plugs - £8. New points £1.40. So about £15 per month. Oh and it came with over half a tank of petrol, so about £13.50... To be fair, i put about 15 litres of oil in - at least, so maybe £15 per month is fairer. No idea how far it went, as it latterly didn't have a working mileometer.
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I have to say i agree with you for once mapmaker (shocker!).
however, there are a few figures that you missed with regards to a new car:
The sense of pride of driving a new car: priceless
The joy of thinking that it wont break down when you need it most: thousands.
The snugness of a good heater in winter and aircon in summer: immeasurable
The fact it will start first time and the smoothness of the drive home when you've had a rubbish day: hundreds
In respect of a banger:
The dread of the MOT being a failure: huge.
If it fails and you throw it away, and then have to find another car within a short timespan: at least £1000!
So in reality, it is far more economical to buy a banger. In defence the value of driving a new car is immeasurable.
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1. The sense of pride of driving a new car: priceless
2. The joy of thinking that it wont break down when you need it most: thousands.
3. The snugness of a good heater in winter and aircon in summer: immeasurable
4. The fact it will start first time and the smoothness of the drive home when you've had a rubbish day: hundreds
>>
Hmmm, not necessarily true (good that we're all different)
1. You don't get that feeling only from a new car, you can also get it by feeling you've beaten the system and saved yourself money. You can also get it from driving something special (not necessarily new!)
2. Our 140,000 mile car has broken down less in the last two years and 30,000 miles (in fact it never has) than my friends brand new car (he's got Audi-assist on "friends and family")
3. Also available on older cars, as long as we're not talking 1960 cars here
4. See 1 & 2 above.
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I should add to the list, that I've had brand new cars, 2 year old cars, 5 year old cars, 40 year old cars.... Each one can be trouble or heartwarming.
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Oh dear Phoenicks. I don't agree with you even one insy winsy ickle bittle. To repeat what I wrote above & to repeat the salient points from the high v low mileage cars thread, so far as *I* am concerned, and to the extent that it affects *me*:
>The sense of pride of driving a new car: priceless
To you maybe (we've had this discussion before on a ?Lotus?), to me, nil. Not a sausage! Nor a bean. My success in my life isn't measured by the car I drive. How you choose to measure your success is entirely your own matter, just don't expect me to measure mine in the same way.
>The joy of thinking that it wont break down when you need it most: thousands.
Thinking! Quite so. Irrational thought. Have you ever been in a new car that has broken down? Have you ever run a properly serviced old car that has done 50k without a hiccough? [see 'fact' below]
>The snugness of a good heater in winter and aircon in summer: immeasurable
Errr... so old cars don't have these? And they never fail on new cars?
>The fact it will start first time and the smoothness of the drive home when you've had a rubbish day: hundreds
Ask ND (sorry!) about his newish Alfa & its association with a flatbed truck with a problem the garage couldn't find for days. Aprilia about his new C class & its complete electrical failure. Aprilia's mother about her new Polo that was so rubbish she part-exed it after little over a year. etc. etc. etc. That's not a fact, that's a triumph of hope over reality. There's *no* new car that drives £5k per annum better/smoother than my car - and many that don't drive half so well.
>In respect of a banger:
>The dread of the MOT being a failure: huge.
Because? Have it done every 6 months, and then you always can sell your failure with 7 months MOT. Never a problem. Even if you only have it done once a year, that gives you a month's grace to find a new one.
>If it fails and you throw it away, and then have to find another car within a short timespan: at least £1000!
As I've saved £5000 every year, according to the above calculations, then finding somewhat less than £1000 every couple of years - at worst - isn't going to be a problem. New car = beer money. As stated above, I reckon the cost to change my current car for another the same is £500 at worst.
>So in reality, it is far more economical to buy a banger. In defence the value of driving a new car is immeasurable.
Entirely measureable to me. That value to me is nil. In fact, it's negative to the tune of £5,000 per annum of taxed income. So over 8k of gross income. That's one helluva pay rise.
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Oh mapmaker, once again you reply in a very hypocritical way.
My response was just like yours - an opinion thats all. So why am i wrong and you are right?!
Firstly. Sense of pride isnt about success. its about personal satisfaction. everyone is different. i was merely stating why people might buy a brand new car. Of course i dont expect you to think my way. You seem to have joy in, well, having no joy! perhaps your joy is in saving money. enjoy it - sounds like FUN!
My point about thinking it wont break down - i totally agree with you - its not something you need to disagree about!!! Yes THINKING it wont break down. of course i know it might break down. thats why i said THINKING....
Regards Aircon and heating. i've yet to be in an old car - think pre 1990 - that had effective draught, damp, wind noise, heat or cold control. a working system doesnt make it effective. secondly, do you know any cars that you can buy for £500 that have a working decent aircon system?! At least if a new cars broke down it would be replaced under warranty.
About MOT - thats my whole point. its a pain. its a hassle. its a cost. and yes its a bit of a dread. because if it fails you have some work to do somehow - whether its getting one every 6 months as you say, or finding a new car. I would rather not have to have an MOT every year thanks!!!
To summarise. You had an opinion, but it would be reasonable for me to think that you were presenting it all as fact with your little figures. I presented my view as an opinion. nothing else. no need to argue about me being wrong. its just an opinion!!
If you dont understand, and i repeat, i did agree with you! i wasnt arguing. jeez man, dont feel like you need to argue every post....
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>Think pre 1990
There aren\'t many pre-1990 cars that you should be paying anything like £1000 for. Think P reg Fiat Bravo, £250 (as reported elsewhere).
>THINKING about a breakdown
That\'s a jolly expensive thought, P! I\'d need more than irrational thought before I went out and spent 5k p.a.
> MOT failure
That\'s what garages are for. Any car (over 3 years old) can fail an MOT, expensively. At least I don\'t have to buy a brand new engine if my cam belt snaps.
The reason *I* disagree with your statements is because *I* have written what *I* have written fairly carefully so that it means what I am trying to say. My \'little\' figures are *facts*, not opinions. I *did* run a R21 for £50 per month (without ever getting oil on my hands). I *did* run a Polo for £15 a month. It *would* cost me £5k p.a. more to run a new car than my old one - assuming DE\'s numbers are right.
It seems to *me*, Phoenicks, that you on the other hand listed some \'facts\', which were in fact opinions.
For instance, to quote you loosely \'In his calculations, Mapmaker forgot to factor in the value of running a swankmobile.\' No, that is valueless to me, against the *fact* that it *would* cost me 5k p.a. more to run a new car than an old one. That Garethj wrote exactly the same thing suggests to me that I\'ve managed to make my point clear to some readers, if not to you, Phoenicks.
Hope that made a bit of sense, Phoenicks. My numbers are facts. Your opinions are just exactly that - and are not a factor in a cold numberical calculation.l
Oh and RichardW I don\'t think that it is a pointless argument - I don\'t think it\'s an argument at all. It is a *fact* that running an old car should cost a lot less than running a new car. (You *can* certainly spend more on an old car than a new one if you try. e.g. by putting in a new engine (6k) instead of a second hand one (£300). But then you are doing it wrong!) It is certainly true that some people prefer to drive new cars. But it is not a fact that new cars don\'t ever break down, any more than it is a fact that old cars always do. By all means the heart may be allowed to drive the head, but don\'t try to claim that it makes financial sense! And btw, chaps, you don\'t have to get your hands dirty to run an older car.
Finally, P, as you obviously think I\'m a really boring person (which I may very well be - & sad too, for trying to get this point over) \'You seem to have joy in, well, having no joy! perhaps your joy is in saving money. enjoy it - sounds like FUN!\'
1. 8< Snip! 8< No need Mapmaker. No need. ND.
2. Somewhere, in another thread, I told the world what I throw my money away on - and it isn\'t cars. So long as it has a wheel at each corner, it gets me from A to B & it will sit happily on the street week after week without complaining, then I\'m joyful. There has been no greater joy in my motoring life than sitting behind a Mercedes star & a long elegant bonnet, for £400 including plenty of tax & a tank of petrol.
8< Snip! 8<
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Can we cool it down please? I don't relish barring either of you guys but I will if you can't agree to disagree.
I don't want any reply or comeback to this post; just for you two to settle down. If you can't agree to this then I will bar your accounts (yes, both of you) for a few days.
No Dosh - Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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This is a pointless argument as some people want new cars, and some people don't mind getting their hand dirty occasionally! I with mapmaker in the latter case, although I do around 20k miles pa so want something reliable. I drive a Citroen Xantia (hear sniggers from the back....). Cost me £1450 22 months ago, now worth around £500, so lets say £1000 depreciation = £45/month. I hope to keep it another 20 months, by which time it will have done 140k miles and be worth nil. Depreciation then = £34 / month. I'm not beholden to the main stealer for £150 oil changes. If someone bumps it in the supermarket I shrug and bump them back....
At £269 / month I'd have paid for all of the £6.5k I've spent on cars in the last 8 years in 2 years.
Nope, can't see me having a new motor any time soon!
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Ask ND (sorry!) about his newish Alfa & its association with a flatbed truck with a problem the garage couldn't find for days.
No need to apologise. If I couldn't accept the ribbing, I wouldn't have posted details of the breakdown on here. Why hide it if it helps someone else who's car suffers the same problem?
With regard to HJs earlier comment, I can personally recommend New-Car-Leasing.Com. Our New Mitsubishi L200 is on a boat from the land of the rising sun as we speak and should be available for delivery within a month. The chaps there are incredibly helpful and the deals are excellent.
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SWMBO's ten year old, now 28K mile, Pug 306 1.8 SR Sedan:
£800 Depreciation
£980 Insurance (new driver) and RFL
£130 Tyres
£500 Cambelt (precaution) and water pump, done separately by Pug Indy
£30 Clutch cable, fitted myself
£1800 Petrol
£110 Servicing, by myself, including consumables
£4350 Total
She has covered 14,300 miles in the 25 months that she's owned the car, so this works out at 30 pence per mile, or £174 per month. The car hasn't missed a beat.
In contrast, in March 2003 we imported our V70 2.4T from a Dutch dealer for £26,500. Even though we saved £6,500 when compared to UK list price for the same car with the same options, and bettered every UK discount deal we could find, this still works out at an eye watering £1.00 per mile, or £722 per month, if we were to sell the car today.
Good job it was purchased with the specific intention of long term (8 years minimum) family chariot.
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I love getting into one of our old cars, either the 16 year old Polo or 15 year old Volvo and thinking I have a damn good car worth peanuts.
But I also love the smell of the new MG ZT we have and the two previous 75's as well. There's something very special about a new car that you can't explain in cold financial terms.
I can see both views.
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Talking about smugness, I personally feel a lot smugger in an old, reliable banger, even if people think I'm "pikey", because I know I'm not, and unlike them, I'm also not burning money on a depreciating lump of metal.
mike
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I'm currently driving the first new car I've owned in the 40 years since I passed my test, and to me it's worth the expense.
Prior to that I had endless old bangers as that's all I could afford, and you can keep them. There are a few elderly classics that I would love to own, but only as a second car.
I'll stick with the depreciation, and the safety, comfort & reliability thanks, some or all of which were in short supply in the older cars I've owned. I'm no longer into bangernomics, but when I retire I suspect I'll have to be. :-(
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The biggest problem for me with cheap cars is the lack of safety measures. Most cars on the road these days are bigger and heavier than their predecessors and if you are driving an older car when you hit one of those, chances are that you are going to be scrambling around in the footwell looking for your feet and ankles. As someone who has driven a 1983 Mini Metro into the back of a parked car at about 30 mph (and survived) my first concern now when buying a car is how strong it is. Everything pales into insignificance when you realise the forces involved in coming to a sudden halt.
My father, however, who is rarely distracted by twelve year old girls blowing kisses at him, buys the best car he can get for £1000 and runs it into the ground (or at least until he gets fed up with it); he seems to get pleasure from doing all his own mechanical repairs and keeping the paintwork pristine. It's almost as if he can't develop a relationship with a car unless he owns it for some time and gets his hands dirty on a semi-regular basis. I can't quite understand this, but then my girlfriend hasn't yet started looking at me the way my mother looks at him. Perhaps I will gain an appreciation over time.
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People seem to be taking rather extreme views on this - i.e. brand new or 'clapped out'. There is a 'third way'.
For example, a local dealer has a 1998 S-plate Nissan Primera 2.0i SLX for sale at £1995. It has just under 50k miles on it and a full Nissan history, plus 12 months MoT on sale. These cars have air-con and driver/passanger airbags and actually rated quite well in NCAP (a stiff bodyshell). They tend not to rot and be very reliable (ask the many taxi drivers who run them).
The most you could lose on a car like that over 2 years would be (obviously) £1995 - or about £83/month - I suspect the actual figure would be rather less since in another two years the car would still be worth £1000 - so that's really about £40 per month. It would be very unlikely to breakdown and would ride and handle much the same as a new 'volume' hatchback. Servicing costs would be unlikely to exceed £500 a year, assuming about 10k miles per year (these cars are on a 9month/9000 mile cycle, IIRC).
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Aprilia - you're absolutely right.
For myself, as opposed for my wife (and the same goes for my father) I would never buy a new car. My wife and mother have had them if they wanted them, maily because they keep cars for longer so depreciation is not an issue.
I much prefer to buy a car that is less than four years old, and has had most of the depreciation taken out of it, but still retains (if it has been looked after, and many have) the quality of a new car, in terms of performance, economy, safety and cleanliness.
I have just sold my Volvo S80. It is almost five years old and the purchaser paid £5,800. That will get him a luxury car which has been serviced as a minimum in accordance with the book, and I always keep teh interior of my cars spotless. It took the ourchaser about 30 minutes including a quick drive and thorough crawl over the car and inspecting the documents to agreet to buy it. If he keeps the car for two years, he will still get £3,000 for it.
However, what is remarkable is that buying a four year old luxury car will sometimes feel like old hat compared to a modern repmobile. The electronics on cars today mean that a medium spec Mondeo has almost all the goodies and some others that my Volvo didn't have and many of these are safety related. Its a pity that mondeos depreciate so quickly, otherwise I would have a new one.
Of course one way to look at this is to buy the Mondeo and simply keep it for ten years or so. You know the car very well and if it has been reliable you will simply keep it until it fall apart. That is the cheapest motoring because there is reduced worry about it's former life. My problem is I get bored with cars easily so am always looking to change to something different.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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There can be priceless moments with any car:
When my wife recently parked our 1964 Triumph 2000 and a couple of 18-year olds remarked "cool car!".
When someone drove into the back of my 11-year old Volvo and crumpled her radiator, I just straightened the tow-ball cover and remarked caually, "Oh well, no damage then".
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I've bought new cars and old cars. New ones have ranged from a brand new Citroen BX to, more recently, brand new Mercedes.
There is a certain amount of 'entertainment' to be got from choosing the new car, having the salesmen kow-towing (sp?) etc. At the end of the day it is a very expensive hobby though, and the novelty soon wears off. After 6 months its an 'old' car and the manufacturer has changed the shape of the foglamps etc etc so everyone knows yours is no longer the latest model!
If I wanted to buy a new car again I would probably look at leasing instead. I don't like the idea of locking up large amounts of money in a car.
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>>There is a certain amount of 'entertainment' to be got from choosing the new car, having the salesmen kow-towing (sp?) etc.
No more than can be obtained from buying asparagus from the market! & as you note a much cheaper hobby...
But your third way, Aprilia, is the true ethos of Bangernomics. A banger in today's terms - if we stick with the sub-4 figure sum which seems to be roughly right - has nothing to do with that rusted heap that puffs out clouds of black smoke which was the 60k Marina one would have been forced to drive 15 years ago. A modern sub-1k car is a delight. A £250 1996 Bravo - who could possibly complain.
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>A £250 1996 Bravo - who could possibly complain.
Well, lots of people. But you know what I mean.
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So here's the solution that makes everybody happy:
Dulwich Estate buys his brand new car which makes him happy. A few years down the line, he sells this to
Espada who runs it for a few years before selling it to
Aprilia who runs it for a few more years before selling it to
Mapmaker who runs it till it dies
What's the problem??
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well said Duchess!!!
I think we have to realise that everyone has a different take on depreciation and to what extent the amount they are happy to pay for a car.
I think there are positives and negatives in running old and new cars alike and i suppose it just comes down to each individual.
It would be a shame if we all made our purchases based on weighing up every pound and penny.
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>>What's the problem with this solution?
None whatsoever, and regular readers of DE's enchanting novelette by instalments in which he agonizes and cogitates over his new car will know full well that this has now been discussed & agreed several times. I'm greatly looking forward to my new multitronic all-singing all-dancing A4. In a few years. See: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=24869&...e
The only problem is valuing the 'dread' of running an old car, and the 'joy' of 'thinking' about the abilities of the new car.
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The only problem is valuing the 'dread' of running an old car, and the 'joy' of 'thinking' about the abilities of the new car.
That was tongue-in-cheek, right? Need to get the hang of the smilies Mr Mapmaker......
;o)
ND
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Perhaps we dont need to put a value on it MM. Not everything has a value. Some things you cant value. Hence people want a new car just because they do - whether its the smell, the newness, dealing with a dealer etc.
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Hence people want a new car just because they do - whether its the smell, the newness, dealing with a dealer etc.
Long may it continue. As previously posted, if someone could see their way to buying a new 3.0V6 Alfa 166 I'd be pleased to make them an offer in 12 months time.
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>>Perhaps we dont need to put a value on it MM.
Right! Agreed! Well, at least, *you* don't need to put a value on it. I shall(nil! - or rather negative).
(and my molls have to walk to nice London restaurants whilst yours are driven to.... a McD's drive-thru? :)) ) That remark was TFirmlyIC, btw.
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nice london restaurant? why i would have thought you wouldnt use those as the cost average of a decent meal doesnt outweigh the economic advantages of McDonalds by having the same end feeling of being full yet for a fraction of the price... again, tongue in cheek of course... ;-)
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Aprilla mentioned that he might lease his next new car, and I was wondering if any forum members had looked into the viability of P.C.H. leasing agreements and how the figures stacked up against outright purchase??
As one can include servicing costs in these schemes, for someone on a company car allowance or even a private individual covering 20k miles per annum, this option looks increasingly attractive, particularly since depreciation costs on new vehicles seem to have escalated in recent years.
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