How can I tell if my car has what is considered a 'Skinny Spare'?
I know this sounds like a stupid question but bear with me. My Dads car has one of these space savers and its blatantly a 'Skinny Spare'. It's absolutely tiny.
My car has 16" alloy wheels. Inside the spare wheel well is a full size 15" steel wheel, fitted with a brand new premium brand tyre. A regular wheel, by all accounts.
But has an '80km/h MAX' sticker on it.
Does this class as a 'Skinny Spare'?
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As it is of a different size to your fitted wheels I would almost certainly say it is supplied as a get you home emergency measure, particularly in view of the manufacturers warning sticker.
I would not be happy with any spare that could not be permanantly used on the car. It is not always convenient to go straight to a repairer the moment you puncture, much better to drop the wheel in, continue your business and pick it up later.
A cheap mean minded little stunt by car companies in my opinion.
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I don't like the idea of a diferent size spare either.
Would mine be considered illegal? My Omega has 225 16inch alloys, but the spare is "only" a 205. Wider than many another car, but narrower than the other wheels. Would those extra 20mm really have been such problem for GM?
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Exactly the same with my old ZX Volcane - tyres were 185, spare 165. Wouldn't have killed them to put the same size under the boot too.
I'm sure it makes sense to some suit somewhere :-)
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Lee
MINI adventure in progress
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We have a lot of problems locally with these 'biscuit' wheels. Basically, you don't want to be stuck 200+ kilometres from the nearest town with a skinny 80km/h wheel!
Whta amazes me is that the flat tyre will fit in the 'skinny wheel' bay of 90% of cars!
There was actually a motor manufacturer spokesperson, who tried to justify the things along the following lines:
1) Modern tyres rarely get punctures, ergo:
2) The spare is rarely taken out of the boot, and seldom checked for condition, and after years of not being used, deteriorates so...
3) Driver changes wheel, leaves dodgy-condition wheel on car, fixes puncture, shoves wheel back into spare-bay, and continues driving on old 'spare', which fails, causing accident.
Their logic [sic] is that this scenario won't occur with a skinny wheel...
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Heh... I had a new tyre fitted on the spare wheel just last week during my car's service (750 quid all in all - ouch). I doubt it'll ever get used, so that's a hundred quid well spent. But it's piece of mind to know that I have a brand-new spare which will be fine should I ever need to use it. In fact, by the time I need to use it it'll be the best tyre on the car.
As a side note, the spare in my car is exactly the same 225/60R15V which is fitted to the four corners. They've even given me a fifth alloy rather than a steel rim. As a result though, I have a very shallow boot.
With regards to these "space-saver" wheels, are they generally in a shallow bay, or do they give you a bay you can fit the punctured tyre in? If the latter then they're not "space-savers" at all, but if the former then someone gets the joy of holding a punctured tyre on their lap should it blow on a fully-laden journey. It does smack of removing one olive from the jar.
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With regards to these "space-saver" wheels, are they generally in a shallow bay, or do they give you a bay you can fit the punctured tyre in? If the latter then they're not "space-savers" at all, but if the former then someone gets the joy of holding a punctured tyre on their lap should it blow on a fully-laden journey. It does smack of removing one olive from the jar.
My MkII Mondeo space saver still does not allow a flat floor to the boot. Crude hardboard cover is above the rest of the floor level.
Dirty road wheel on the lap is a concern hence several black sacks stored in the spare wheel well. Five up and a full boot presents an interesting challenge!
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With regards to these "space-saver" wheels, are they generally in a shallow bay, or do they give you a bay you can fit the punctured tyre in?
In my Vectra C, there is enough space in the tyre well to fit a standard wheel into. Most of the room when the space saver is there is taken up with a removable spacer ring.
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Same happened with my previous car, a Eunos 800 (Mazda Millenia/Xedos 9) which came with a 'space saver' but also had a recess which allowed a full size spare. I obtained a steel rim of the right size from a breaker and had a correct size tyre fitted. Still have it in my garage as place I traded the car to wouldn't give me any allowance for the cost (fair enough). I just put the space saver back in. Must track down the new owners and offer them the full size spare and a few other odds and ends I've still got for the car.
There have been a number of accidents (some fatal) here in New Zealand caused by people using these wheels. If there is a law that regulates their use, as in the UK, then it is fairly widely flouted. If I see one of these when following a car, I give it an extra allowance of room, just in case.
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In my Vectra C, there is enough space in the tyre well to fit a standard wheel into. Most of the room when the space saver is there is taken up with a removable spacer ring.
This isn't a dig at you, DD, you didn't design the thing ... but if there is room for a full-size spare, what on earth is the benefit of supplying one of the toy wheels? Apart, of course, from saving the makers a few quid.
Brilliant: spend a fortune equipping the new model with airbags and electronic stability wotsits and whatnots ... and then save 50p by supplying a toy spare wheel.
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saving the makers a few quid
I think you answered your own question, there, NW. The reason is simple:
airbags and electronic stability wotsits and whatnots
i.e. the bits 99% of people ask the salesman about, and..
a toy spare wheel
the bit only 1% ask about.
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>> a toy spare wheel the bit only 1% ask about.
Patently, if I didn't know you better I might think you were a cynic :)
It seems from all you all say that far from saving any space, these toys waste space: nothing saved when the toy is stored, but after a puncture and the toy is fitted to the car, there is a padding wotsit to clog up the car.
When I start shopping for my next 4X4, I must remember to find out which makers fit these space-waster™ wheels. I will have great fun going along and cooing with delight over the car before rejecting it as unsafe.
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This isn't a dig at you, DD, you didn't design the thing ... but if there is room for a full-size spare, what on earth is the benefit of supplying one of the toy wheels? Apart, of course, from saving the makers a few quid.
That's basically it, NW. To save money. If I ever have to use the toy spare wheel and put the full sized wheel in the well, I then have to put the spacer ring somewhere else. Fine if you've an empty boot or empty passenger seats.
This sort of money saving racket has been going on for years though. eg, The Metro when it was released only had one rear fog light, but had space on the rear bumper for two. Rover just fitted a dummy lens to save the cost of another bulb and lens.
The Ford (Escort or Orion) had two foglights, but Ford only put a bulb in one side. A humble 45p bulb left out of the assembly, multiplied by however many cars sold, soon adds up to a saving made by Ford or Rover.
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And I bet they save more than 45p on a toy wheel. What do you reckon, a 50 to 100 quid saving per car, depending on the car? No wonder they're keen to promote the "space saving" advantages of toy wheels.
And yes... they've always been trying to cut corners here and screw you there. Why else do they fit cassette players in cars when you can't even buy cassettes any more? So you'll give them 300 quid to fit a 50 quid CD player.
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While I agree with all most have said, the fact is a full size wheel in any condition will not fit in the boot of my GTV the only choice is a skinny spare.
The spider never came with a spare at all noly an emergency inflation kit.
My classic spider has a full size wheel on a proper alloy rim.
JaB
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The rolling radius of my skinny spare is less than that of the rest and consequently rotates faster. When on the front this mildly activates the traction control unless I switch it off. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you this in the owners handbook. Some people would think that they had a real problem and would head for the nearest garage.
--
L'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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The rolling radius of my skinny spare is less than that of the rest and consequently rotates faster. When on the front this mildly activates the traction control unless I switch it off. Unfortunately it doesn't tell you this in the owners handbook. Some people would think that they had a real problem and would head for the nearest garage.
I thought that heading straight for the nearest garage was exactly what you are suppose to do when you fit one of these space-waster toy wheels.
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>> The rolling radius of my skinny spare is less than that >> of the rest and consequently rotates faster. When on the front >> this mildly activates the traction control unless I switch it off. >> Unfortunately it doesn't tell you this in the owners handbook. Some >> people would think that they had a real problem and would >> head for the nearest garage. I thought that heading straight for the nearest garage was exactly what you are suppose to do when you fit one of these space-waster toy wheels.
Perhaps I should have explained that I meant they would (out of ignorance) make a proper repair garage make their first priority before continuing to their chosen tyre fitting bay.
--
L'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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And I bet they save more than 45p on a toy wheel. What do you reckon, a 50 to 100 quid saving per car, depending on the car? No wonder they're keen to promote the "space saving" advantages of toy wheels.
I doubt it. Assuming the full-sized spare wheel would be steel, I'd guess there are pennies difference in the cost of it versus the cost of the skinny space-waster: both a similar lumps of pressed steel, which is a cheap material. Probably a bigger saving on the tyre, though: 20 quid maybe?
And yes... they've always been trying to cut corners here and screw you there.
True, but this one seems particularly cynical. It's a serious safety issue.
I'm sure their mothers love them, but the folks who make these decisions in the car companies sound like a peculiarly cynical bunch of extra-marital offspring.
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£20 per car made/sold is a serious chunk of change.
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£20 per car made/sold is a serious chunk of change.
It's about 0.3% of the factory-gate price of a Mondeo. It's about 1/6th of what it is spent per car on advertising.
Sure, if you sell a million cars, £20 quid a go starts to look serious ... until you remember that £20 million cost comes out of the total factory-gate price of about £6 billion.
True, most European car-makers are in financial trouble. But they must be pretty desperate and unimaginative if this is how they set about cutting costs, rather than achieving Nissan- or Toyota-style levels of efficncy.
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until you remember that £20 million cost comes out of the total factory-gate price of about £6 billion.
How many times I have dealt with that one in various companies. It doesn't matter how big the pot is, its still £20m saved. You're considering the wrong approach.
A more appropriate point would be;
"How many extra cars do you have to sell to recover the £20m from the profits ? "
The likely answer is "a lot more than I actually will".
And saving costs in one way does not preclude saving them in another. Frequently the correct approach is to do both.
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>> until you remember that £20 million cost comes out of the total factory-gate price of about £6 billion. How many times I have dealt with that one in various companies. It doesn't matter how big the pot is, its still £20m saved. You're considering the wrong approach.
It sure does matter how big the pot is!
If Bertie's Back Street Garage saves £20 million in costs, Bertie and his staff could retire on the spot.
If Ford or GM or Toyota saves £20million, it's not going to be enough to buy each staff member a prawn sandwich ... nor would it be enough to rescue Ford from its bundles of losses.
Any well-run business is always looking for ways to cuts costs, the question that any such company should be asking is how much it is going to undermine safety in its cost-cutting. That's a matter of business ethics, which sadly doesn't always figure top of the list of a cost-accountant's concerns.
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Any well-run business is always looking for ways to cuts costs, the question that any such company should be asking is how much it is going to undermine safety in its cost- cutting. That's a matter of business ethics, which sadly doesn't always figure top of the list of a cost-accountant's concerns.
The question may be whether they should do it, but the answer is that they do do it. I'd imagine, like Mark says with regards to saving weight, one individual saving may not be that much, but add a few together and the numbers get bigger. 20 quid per car for a spare wheel is a pretty good start.
There's simply an equation (and it's a simple equation) which says "by leaving this off the car, will I save more money than I lose in sales?" and if the answer's yes then it gets left off. That's car companies for you. Well, that's most companies for you.
They could put electric windows in the back if they put them in the front, but most don't, because most people don't care. They could put front fog-lights on as standard, but they make more money by listing them as an optional extra. And so on. They only started putting seat belts in the back because their arm was twisted by the law.
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>>It sure does matter how big the pot is!
Oh dear.
>If Bertie\'s Back Street Garage saves £20 million in costs,
That\'s some back street garage ! Fancy them having such high costs that they can save £20m. Or did you confuse \"save\" with \"get\" ?
>>if Ford or GM or Toyota saves £20million
So why do they bother selling cars ? I mean, they\'re only worth about £15k, for a company like them that\'s meaningless. Maybe they just shouldn\'t. I mean, what\'s the profit margin for them on a car ? £1000 ? not worth having for a company of their size.
At £1,000 profit per car, they would have to build and sell an extra 20,000 of them to have the same amount of money into their company as saving the £20m would have caused.
It really isn\'t that complex.
Business ethics are another matter completely. What people seem to forget is that those ethics typically raise the price of production. And seemingly ethics become much less important when punters are asked to pay for them.
And if you want a full size wheel, you can have one. Of course you\'ll pay for it, and that might stop it being quite so \"vital\" to you, but you\'d have paid for it one way or another anyway, even if it was fitted as standard.
Nasty place, the real world.
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At £1,000 profit per car, they would have to build and sell an extra 20,000 of them to have the same amount of money into their company as saving the £20m would have caused. It really isn\'t that complex.
Of course it isn\'t. Any small saving in unit cost, multiplied out over a long production run, adds up to lottsa money.
The problem is, which savings?
Any of the makers could easily save a few hundred on each car by omitting the alloy wheels and the stereo ... but those are visible items which customers notice.
So some makers omit one important piece of safety equipment, in the hope that customers won\'t spot the game, and that the regulators won\'t stop them cutting corners.
Business ethics are another matter completely.
I was afraid you might say that, but hoped you wouldn\'t.
What people seem to forget is that those ethics typically raise the price of production.
Not so. In this case, the ethical practice -- supplying a proper spare -- had been industry standard practice for decades.
There was no question of it raising the price of production. What happened instead was a few greedy folks wanted to cut production costs without improving effiency, and to do so in a non-transparent way.
And seemingly ethics become much less important when punters are asked to pay for them.
When folks are asked to pay extra for decency, yes, they do kinda barf.
And if you want a full size wheel, you can have one. Of course you\'ll pay for it, and that might stop it being quite so \"vital\" to you, but you\'d have paid for it one way or another anyway, even if it was fitted as standard.
OK. Show me:
a) how many manufacturers offer an upgrade to a full-sized spare wheel in their options list?
b) How many of those offer it for anything like the £20 saving the maker made by leaving it out?
Nasty place, the real world.
It doesn\'t have to be. It\'s just that some business set low standards.
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>>>> Business ethics are another matter completely.
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>>I was afraid you might say that, but hoped you wouldn\'t.
Why ? Do you think they are the same matter ? How strange.
Anyway, I can\'t be bothered to read much of what you wrote, but your original point was that the size of the \"pot\" mattered.
Which was a) wrong and b) silly.
The rest of it is all a bit of a yawn.
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The rest of it is all a bit of a yawn.
Oh please. I belive the point that NoWheels was making is that a car manufacturer with a turnover of billions shouldn't be compromising consumer convenience and safety in order to save a few quid per car. That is one of the most sensible and correct things I've read in this thread. The comparison to Joe Public Motors Ltd was simply an illustration of how £20 per car is a small percentage to these big players.
The fact that they do do it isn't the point, neither is the fact that the numbers mean they will screw principles and do it anyway. Yes, a 20 quid saving per car adds up to a big number, and that big number helps buy Mr CEO his new yacht. The point is that they shouldn't do it.
Perhaps the more cynical among us take it as a given that this sort of thing is common practice, but cynicism conditions us to accept that we're bing screwed rather than asking why.
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>>>> Business ethics are another matter completely. >> >>I was afraid you might say that, but hoped you wouldn't. Why ? Do you think they are the same matter ? How strange.
You are Gordon Gekko and I claim my five pounds :)
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NoWheels,
Cynic? Moi? It has been said that the only difference between a cynic and a realist is the sense of humour.
As regards the great £20 x 1M cars debate, may I add a simple point derived from years running a business? If you run a business with a turnover of £20 billion then this is cold comfort if your costs are £19,999,999,999 as your profit is still only £1.
If someone has a bright idea to save £20 on each of the million products that leave your gate then your profit of £1 rises to £2,000,001. It's well worth doing, even though the £20M is 0.1% of the £20bn.
In most businesses, the profit lies in the marginal items.
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Patently, I wasn't quibbling with the merits of controlling costs ... and given the current financial troubles of many of the major car-makers, I can see why they have a compelling need to shave a few quid on each unit.
My gripe is just with the way they have chosen to make the saving. They've chosen a not-very-visible and little-understood safety factor, rather than one of dozens of bits of more visible, but much less important equipment, any one of which could yield much bigger savings.
Omitting a proper spare wheel strikes me as being on a par with the trick done in the 80s by a certain French manufacturer, whose wheels were secure only by three bolts instead of the usual four. Most drivers would never have problem, but anyone who neglecte the tightening of even one bolt would have found out the hard way.
Part of it is the customer's fault: ten years ago, a depressing proportion of buyers were found (in some survey I read) to prioritise a sunroof over ABS, and I guess a majority of today's buyers would prioritise alloy wheels over a proper spare.
Still doesn't make it ethical practise, though. It's like the sharp seat-runners HJ observed in the new FIAT Panda: most buyers won't notice, and the EURO-NCAP tests don't test the safety of rear seat passengers. So a crucial few quid (at most) has been shaved off the cost of each car, with little likelihood of a negative effect on sales.
This sort of business practise is just the sort of thing that provokes laws and regulations to maintain minimum safety standards ... which in turn provokes squawks from those who object to the law sticking its nose in places where it wouldn't have to venture if cynical tricks like this weren't use.
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Yes NoWheels, but.....
Say that you are the boss of a major car company that needs to save money in order to remain viable, continue to employ its staff (including you!) and carry on paying its pensioners. Two cost saving ideas are mentioned.
First, you can omit some piece of equipment from your range of cars - aircon, say, or alloy wheels, or a tape player instead of a CD - but charge the same price. Fine, except that your customers will notice this and buy the other company's products instead. Then your sales will drop and you will go bust*.
Or you can omit something that no-one looks for in the brochure and won't notice when they buy. Now your sales will continue, revenue will improve, and the pensioners will be happy.
Which do you pick? Hmmmmm....
It's funny - we think industry in in control. They seem to think we are in control.
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*, at which point, many acres of industrial land in the West Midlands can at last be put to a productive use. Oh, sorry, wrong thread.
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Or you can omit something that no-one looks for in the brochure and won't notice when they buy. Now your sales will continue, revenue will improve, and the pensioners will be happy. Which do you pick? Hmmmmm....
Follow that logic through, patently, and you can get some serious cost-saving ideas. Get rid of the dual circuit on the brakes, that'll save a few quid, and no-one will notice cos they haven't been printed on the features list for 25 years.
Mind you, when the brakes fail an there's no back-up circuit an you start getting the zillion-dollar lawsuits and your sales plummet cos your cars are pilloried as unsafe, your shareholders will be a bit less happy.
Stripping out unnoticed features is sound cost-saving logic. But if the savings turn around and bite your customers later, you may come to regret it.
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Mind you, when the brakes fail an there's no back-up circuit an you start getting the zillion-dollar lawsuits and your sales plummet cos your cars are pilloried as unsafe, your shareholders will be a bit less happy. Stripping out unnoticed features is sound cost-saving logic. But if the savings turn around and bite your customers later, you may come to regret it.
So that's why they keep the backup braking system.
The point, in the end, is that the spare wheel doesn't come into that category. It is described as a get-you-home measure and is clearly different to the other four.
OK, so this frustrates some drivers in some circumstances, and rightly so. Nevertheless, it is a requirement that a car can continue despite a puncture so even if you have a full size spare wheel, once you have used it you are in any case under an obligation to repair/replace the old tyre.
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OK. Show me: a) how many manufacturers offer an upgrade to a full-sized spare wheel in their options list? b) How many of those offer it for anything like the £20 saving the maker made by leaving it out?
Funnily enough, Fiat offer a full-size spare as an option on the Panda and yes, it costs £20 including VAT. Given that the standard tyres are 155/80 13s, goodness knows how small the space-saver must be. Must be said that when we ordered Mrs B's new Panda, that was the first option to get ticked.
I know that Honda went from having full-size spare on 2003 MY Civic to space-saver on 2004 MY; someone told me that it was to give the boot more depth. A retrograde step, IMHO.
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With regards to these "space-saver" wheels, are they generally in a shallow bay, or do they give you a bay you can fit the punctured tyre in? If the latter then they're not "space-savers" at all, but if the former then someone gets the joy of holding a punctured tyre on their lap should it blow on a fully-laden journey.
Porsche 911 has a bag to put the full size wheel in, then it's supposed to go on the passenger seat. Bad luck for the passenger.
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When I bought my Volcane new, after a bit of bartering the dealer let me have a full size alloy and tyre at cost.
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L'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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I don't even have the luxury of a skinny spare. Mine came with a can of instant repair and an electric pump! Mind you, the reason given is a good one - it's to save weight and therefore improve acceleration. :) I'm not fussed about the instant repair stuff, having used it a few times without problem, but if there a big rip in the tyre or the alloy wheel is broken, I'm going to be waiting for recovery.
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Saving weight?!
What do you drive, a go-kart? I mean, even my oversized wheels are easy to pick up with one hand. Does 10kg really add that much to the 0-60 time? Yes sir, I know the paint is poor quality, but we were saving weight by only applying one coat.
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I didn't say it was a GOOD excuse! :-)
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>>Does 10kg really add that much to the 0-60 time?
Dunno, but I 'spect that lots of different 10kgs in lots of different areas would. Its more a sign of an approach to lightening cars where it is usually a given that no one component will give you the total weight reduction you wish, but where many smaller reductions will.
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There's a move to do away with spares althogether on fleet cars, as it's considered hazardous for an employee to change the wheel at the side of the road. This sounds absurd, but if you've ever changed an o/s wheel on a dark motorway, you'll know how scary it is. Also some 'persons' stuggle with the weight of full size wheels.
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As I see it, the only excuse for the space saver spare wheel in my V70 is the cleverly defined optional Volvo subwoofer that it allows to sit on top.
Even this excuse is marginal, and I would prefer to lug around a full sized spare wheel instead, knowing Murphy's Law to say that when I eventually get a puncture, it will be somewhere between home and the Czech Republic, at 03:00am, on a Sunday, with the following day a public holiday, and 1,000 miles still to cover before reaching our destination.
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I have been keeping half an eye on the breakers' yards for a 16" Veloce pattern wheel for my car. I share the view that you will only get a puncture when halfway home from holiday on a rainy sunday night in the middle of nowhere. Not a position I want to be in with 50mph/50mile max skinny.
This will require a little thought on my part as the spacer ring for the skinny also happens to house the jack and other tools. Not an impossible task, but a fair bit of whittling will be required.
No Dosh - Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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