Oh, we can debate the stats, but accept the reality.
There are too many bikers, born agains included, who leap on a Hayabusa and, thinking they're invincible, let their gonads take over and go looking for the horizon. If you rode a Triumph 650 30 years ago, you think you know it. You don't. These mothers are something else entirely. They scare the hell out me on my (relatively) sedate Harley D and I've been riding never mind how many years. I would class myself as a pretty experienced well-trained rider, but when I tried out a Fireblade recently I thought boy I'm too old for this. Not that the handling was the problem, it was fine, just that I could see instantly what someone who simply jumped on one might do to himself.
I am involved quite a bit with rider training and re-training. Anyone returning to biking should take a Motorcycle Safety Foundation Course or similar and I would like to see as mandatory, presentation of proof of this before the dealer allows the bike out of the showroom.
It is perhaps a cultural thing given where I live, where Confucian culture still prevails to some extent, but to see a youngster complete the 3 days' course and get the patch to sew on his (and hers, oh yes) jacket, then display that proudly at club nights and on disciplined group rides is very satisfying.
We cannot of course predict what might happen on the road, but we know these guys and girls are proficient riders who take pride in observing the road rules. Alas in the Philippines that's a never ending task and some say it's finger-in-the-dike stuff, but it's very satisfying.
But I know when 23 year old Juan de la Cruz or whoever was on last month's course opens up that Bandit on the North Expressway because he simply can't resist it, perfectly understandably, he knows what he's doing. Then we do the Keith Code course. This is for experienced bikers and when you've done it you really know how good you are (or aren't). It's run all over the world, and I'm sure in UK also, if not similar must be available.
My point is that licensing authorities, dealers, insurance companies, should be demanding proof of these kinds of training, whether in UK or anywhere.
My rider friends and I may look like wild men but we are passionate about biking and above all rider safety. If anyone wnts to get balls out and knee down we have an excellent racing circuit down at Batangas where for not much money you can see how good you are under proper supervision and proper support services if something goes wrong.
Every time a motorcyclist is killed the movement loses a brother.
I read about the maniacs on UK roads on bikes and it makes me wince. It can only be a matter of time before some EU nanny (and I say this with the greatest difficulty but for once I have to say I'm not entirely in disagreement) puts some kind of limits on engine capacity and/or bike performance. That would be a tragedy. We all want to explore our limits, that's why we not still dragging our knuckles on the ground. But in managed conditions please, or the nannies will be along with their emasculation kit, and you can take that to the bank.
Growler out/
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Well said Growler.
I had a ride on a 1100cc Japanese Sports bike and frightened myself severely.
I am struck by the difference in approach to motorcycling between USA and UK. In America they are largely for recreational use and generally ridden sedately with Harleys, Goldwings etc the popular choice. The lunatic brigade seem to drive V8 pick-ups.
Over here there are many bikes ridden by commuters who seem to think they are exempt from traffic law and apparently not aware of the law of physics.
C
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Perhaps whoever runs the donor card scheme could consider targetting advertising at born again bikers without extra training? I'd imagine Australia has probably already made the adverts .....
teabelly
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Motorcycling is living on borrowed time. Sooner or later the Government will kill it off, probably by making the test too difficult or expensive to pass therefore reducing the number of motorcyclists over time into a minority hobby.
Increased deaths equals bad publicity and they will punish the biker community - prepare for a battle similar to the power restrictions and learner law changes in the 80's.
It can't go on for ever, so if you have a licence then enjoy biking whilst it lasts.
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Umm... several factors:
Born agains definitely a problem. You can always tell them by their immaculate new dainese leathers and they nearly all ride Ducatis and they are lethal and they always run the bike on tickover for 10 minutes before setting off because 'thats what it says in the manual'.
The condition of the roads is also a major factor. They are appaling and all have a big line of overbanding where they put the cable in about 5 years ago and then repaired the road cheaply and this always seems to be exactly where I want to lean the bike over for a corner. I still have a sports bike (fireblade) but I increasingly prefer my big trailie (tiger) because of the state of the roads.
The bikes themselves are also an issue, The Blade is not so bad, it can be ridden hard or gently as you prefer. I have a big problem with the R1 (the original being the worst, the recently released mark II has been toned down a bit). This was a full on race bike with indicators. Very few people have the ability to ride this bike in a safe manner at any speed, the R6 is just as bad. MCN used to be full of R1's with delivery mileage because the owners had riden it once and cacked themselves. Also the R1 started the race for horsepower which has now gone to crazy heights. The KX 10R has 162bhp on a 433 pound bike. OK if your name is John McGuinness but if not likely your name is 'the deceased'. Reluctantly agree with growler this maddness has to stop.
Finally, I see government repression ahead as well, that will be my cue to go and live in Thailand, mind you I'm probably going to do that anyway...
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Thommo,
Whilst agreeing with all you say, a bike or scooter with 30bhp or less can still be lethal.
Are there any statistics that show the average age of riders killed is increasing? That would be the case if the rise in fatalities was due to born again bikers.
C
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Thommo,
Are there any statistics that show the average age of riders killed is increasing? That would be the case if the rise in fatalities was due to born again bikers. C
There are some UK specific ones here:
tinyurl.com/yt7zd
My perspective on age puts "born agains" older than 31 to 35.
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Thommo:
The Ducati/Dainese syndrome is here also.
My definition of motorcycling and that of my many friends (thankfully) is a bunch of silver-haired old f***s with gorgeous girlfriends young enough to be their daughters cruising on big fat antediluvian V-twins, covered with rotting leather and fading tattoos who would, pretty much literally, do anything for each other, whose bikes are kept in glittering condition while their riders could definitely do with a shave, enjoying the road, the company, the beer and the post-ride BS. On a long haul we have a backup truck just in case (support services here are basic or non-existent once you hit the woop-woop), and everything is about an enjoyable ride with safety as the primary consideration. Not to say we don't grind the footpegs now and then! Our ladies backride and they matter a lot as well.
I have ridden with HD groups twice in UK as a guest and like us here find they are disciplined, sensible, and take great pride in riding well and safely. I have also ridden HD's in the US and find people I never knew of yesterday to be firm friends by tonight.
It would be a terrible shame if, (a) the antics of maniacs, and (b) the dead hand of bureaucracy killed off the pleasures of the many for the sins of the few.
But something tells me I see it coming.
Plenty of riding in TH if you get there. My group is already looking at a ride from Singapore up to Chiang Mai next year if we can rent the bikes.
The organ donor thing has already been mooted in some US States in exchange for helmet laws.
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Your figures are interesting, Thommo. Since 200bhp is more than adequate for any car less than a ton and a half, it seems that 60bhp should be plenty for almost any bike?
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Especially when you remember that the Manx Norton had all of 47bhp originally. And everyone rode in the same direction.
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.....and this is how the nannies will think...
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.. and personally, in this instance I wouldn't blame them too much. The theoretical limit to the built-in power needed to make a bike unridable must be quite high, but by that point the rider must feel a bit like Dr Strangelove on the rocket.
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Do those stats include Northern Ireland???
I heard a radio report last night which commented on the increase in bikers getting their "harp and wings" in NI this year. 24 riders wiped out in six months.
Has anyone seen any published stats on who was "at fault" in these accidents?
Most news reports seem to indicate riders usually in their late 20's were killed when they collided with another vehicle, often an oncoming vehicle. This immediately conjurs up an image of a motorist overtaking something and either mis-judging the incoming speed of the motorcyclist, or the amount of clear road space available to him.
I have always believed that if all motorists were forced to learn to handle a motorcycle proficiently before being allowed to progress onto four (or more) wheels, the motoring population may be more considerate and more aware of the potential risks they pose to motorcyclists.
It has been proven (or certainly documented) that Joe average only concentrates for approx 10% of most journeys by road. I would assume this statistic and the consequential risk is equally transferrable to motorcyclists.
Having rode 125 and 250CC bikes years ago the two wheel gene's have never left my system. I did always feel vulnerable on the road and narrowly averted a few potential disasters, which were almost always involving junctions where drivers failed to grasp the concept of give-way lines or stop signs. As friends, some of whom have now departed due to RTAs while on two wheels, progressed onto their Fireblades, ZX9R, RSV's and R1's they were often willing to let me have a run on their newest machine or go for a run riding two up. I stopped asking for a go after taking a run out on a friends R1. Unless you have been foolish enough to mount one of these beasts you have no idea what it is capable of. That half hour of two wheeled antics put the safety of myself and others at risk. After that I vowed to myself not to be tempted in future, and ruled out any thoughts I may ever have of returning to two wheels. I live near a independant motorcycle dealer - I find it no surprise he has a regular supply of almost new, low mileage R1's. I often wonder if their previous owners were sensible enough to sell them before learning about their ability to handle a race bike the hard way...
Another thing which saddens me is to see motorcyclists who have lashed out their cash on a decent bike but who think they can save a few quid by not bothering with protective clothing. I often see motorcyclists wearing gloves that would barely protect you from the cold, and "bikers" jackets that sell for £25 at the sunday market. Sure kevlar is expensive, but so are funerals!!!
Leon
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Leon,
Just a minor point why doesn't it conjure up the vision of a motorcyclist overtaking when he shouldn't? Or riding down the inside or between two stationery traffic streams to then pull up in front of a car over the stop lines at Traffic lights? or all of the other really "smart" things that motorcyclists do?
It used to be said that instead of an airbag if we had a sharp spike on our steering wheels we'd all drive safer, surely though motorcyclists already do, they have a vastly overpowered (for the speed limit or safety) lump of metal that if it fell over without any help could permanently mangle their legs yet many of them (I'd venture to suggest proportionately more than car drivers based on the absolute numbers on the road) drive like total and utter prats.
Simmybear
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Simmybear,
I am slightly biased against those who travel exclusively on four wheels. I base this on the fact that during during my riding days it was always motorists who presented me with the highest degree of risk and who were least predictable. I have never felt the same sense of vulnerability in my cars as I did on a bike.
I am not certain what activity places bikers in the "total and utter prats" category. Moving forward between two stationery queues is perhaps discourteous, but I would say it is a benefit of being on a bike. Bikers who knock wing mirrors as they go, thats unacceptable.
While on four wheels I have never been placed in danger by a motorcylist. By their nature bikes are high revving things and they often sound like they are doing a million miles an hour when they are not. I can be decieveing to some motorists when a bike passes them. A big bike will pull from 60 to 90 in seconds making a lot of noise as it gets there, which often creates an illusion to motorists that the rider is chancing it a bit.
I don't believe that all riders are competent, there are some perhaps many whose experience and ability is in indirect proportion to the size and nature of the bike they ride. Me on an R1 or Hiyabusa being a perfect example. It is this inexperience and inability that makes them an equal risk on a bike as an inexperienced motorist.
There is an argument that todays safety enhanced motors make many of us car operators and not drivers. With the current trend for in car hifi, TV and DVD the comfortable arm-chair like interiors does little to remind the driver he is moving at motorway miles per hour.
Leon
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Leon,
I appreciate your comments, I was in no way suggesting that all bikers are in one category or another, neither however are all car drivers.
The benefit of all vehicles should be that they allow safe transport for their occupants and cause no danger to any other road users. To achieve this they need to be driven/ridden courteously and within the law.
Many of the behaviours of both drivers and riders clearly do not fall within the definitions of the various Road Traffic Acts or the guidance of the current Highway code.
I have no time for drivers who park on Zig-zag lines at crossings when a carpark is only 20 yards away or for bikers who I have seen not only strike wing mirrors accidently but deliberately kick a vehicle that appeared to obstruct their right to cruise between stationery traffic queues.
The point I wanted to make was a re-balancing of your comments that the cause of increased motorcycle fatalities was car drivers.
If I overstepped the mark I apologise but nonetheless I do not believe that either bikers or car drivers are as white as the driven snow that would be stretching human nature!
Simmybear
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>>>>>>>>Just a minor point why doesn't it conjure up the vision of a motorcyclist overtaking when he shouldn't? Or riding down the inside or between two stationery traffic streams to then pull up in front of a car over the stop lines at Traffic lights? or all of the other really "smart" things that motorcyclists do?
OK I lane split as well and do all of that. That's what a bike's for. On the other hand I could be one more car in front of you blocking your way home....
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Leon, Just a minor point why doesn't it conjure up the vision of a motorcyclist riding down the inside or between two stationery traffic streams to then pull up in front of a car over the stop lines at Traffic lights?
Riding between lanes of stationary or queuing traffic is legal - when I did the Bikesafe course organised by the Met police this was stated several times, and on the rides where I was followed by a police rider it was encouraged. Nobody buys a bike to sit in traffic, if it's safe to do so, the police have no problem with it. This morning I even filtered past a police car in traffic.
Some car drivers do have a problem with this though! I bet I'm not the only motorcyclist who's been deliberatly blocked before?
Gareth
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Leon - I'm glad you reached the correct conclusion after your trip on the R1, but I don't see why you shouldn't ride a bike with a sensible level of power. Presumably rocket-bikes will always be available because makers know there are buyers. The point is that there must be a power level beyond which those bikes should not be ridden on public roads. Let the nutters ride them on appropriate circuits or maybe in TTs (but they can be bad enough). Hard on the correct riders like Growler, but if makers won't restrain the sale of products dangerous to the public, they should be controlled. After all, fireworks are regulated and they don't usually cause too many deaths.
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I think that some biker deaths are due to inexperience/born agains syndrome. Perhaps a third of them.
However, I've long thought that the persuit of safety for the car driver will be at the expense of the most vulnerable. Car drivers feel safer than ever with their multiple airbags and crumple zones. Some even buy 4x4s so they feel safer still. In fact, they feel so safe they no longer need to pay attention to the road, and have time to use a mobile phone, etc even in a built up area.
Even the authorities make road alerations aimed almost exclusively at the car. Lots more paint on the road - which is slippery when wet.
Detecting the changes, many cyclists take to the pavement (indeed it becomes legal for them to do so). That leaves the next most vulnerable group - bikers. Not surprising then that the accident stats are up!
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I missed a factor - the change in the way the roads are policed, with speed being the main thing for which people are now likely to be caught. This has caused a relative rise in other forms of dangerous driving, the primary one being inattention.
Is it any wonder that the most recent anaysis of causes of accidents is inattention, and we now see a rise in the number of deaths from the smallest/fastest vehicles (ie. those most likely to be missed by that inattention)?
We need to re-educate people that driving is a responsibility.
Oh, and I do think that the biking community need also to find a way of ensuring that every rider of a big bike gets some additional training.
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Another factor is that in the olden days a high proportion of motorists started out on two wheels and progressed to a car after a year or two.
They therefore appreciated the bikers' point of view.
Nowdays that stage tends to be missing and it's through the car test and into a hot hatch.
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It would be interesting to see how many of the fatalities had excess alcohol and drugs in their system.
Presumably very few children would have any. I (not being a biker) motorcyclists would have a relatively low level but pedestrians and car drivers is a different matter.
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BrianW's point is cogent.
We graduated on 2 wheels because that's all we could afford. We learned (often the hard way!) to deal with road surfaces, the weather's effect on them, and the likely effect on us! We learned the way to deal with bends with offset camber, spilt diesel on those old concrete surfaces on roundabouts. The result of our failures to manage these conditions were immediate and the lessons severe. On a Francis-Barnett 197cc at that!
I like to think the lessons I learned then and still relearn from my regular riding make me a better driver. Definitely the simple stuff like keep space around you and always have a way out and understand that a small shower means moderate your speed and distance because you may need it. Above all else biking gives you an appreciation of road surfaces and weather conditions which serves you well when you graduate to a car.
As a regular biker also I am continually reminded of my vulnerability and the value of roadcraft
Modern cars are (as has been said) so cushioned from all this that it is very easy almost to doze off. ......
There are the motorcyclists who blast themselves into oblivion on their own. Idiots, like the certainty of death and taxes as the saying goes, will always be with and among us. That is no call for banning or restricting motorcycling. If I go rock climbing and fall off that is the consequence of a personal decision I took. The State has no and should never have any part or jurisdiction in that. If I highside my Hayabusa because I stuffed up that bend and I become part of the surrounding landscape that is a matter entirely for me and the executors of my will. ...and to be fair the public services who have to clean up the mess.
If by my riding I endanger others then that's another story. The full force of the law should apply to me. But it remains a fact that most motorcycle accidents involve cagers.
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Thanks for the support, Growler.
Maybe this is another of the results of the law of unintended consequences.
It is definitely more difficult to get on the road on 2 wheels than when I were a lad. Then you just bought a bike: any make, any size, popped into the insurance broker and rode off into the morning sun (maybe coming back to the broker in the afternoon for a claim form, having overdone it a little).
Minimum age was 16.
Now you've got crash helmets, CBT, capacity limits, varied age limits, limited learner duration, and all that.
I wonder how car drivers would take to having to buy a small car to learn in, only to have to sell it at a loss on passing their test if they wanted something that would exceed 50mph?
No wonder so few road users have bike experience nowdays.
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I started with bikes as well.
It all went wrong in the 70s when they started coming out with fast bikes of little weight - KH250, GT250, RD250 and the like.
I seem to recall carnage as these were regularily and thoroughly wrapped around things. Admittedly it was usually a car that had pulled out that they were wrapped around, but none the less a lot of people got hurt.
Quite different from the learning I did on a Bantam before graduating to a Matchless 650 (and if you threw one of those around they bounced) where a slide down the road didn't usually do much harm and you couldn't move fast enough to catch quite so many cars by surprise.
I've no knowledge these days, but it seems to me that a lot less teenagers are splattered now than happened in the 70s. So maybe making it more expensive and mroe difficult to get on a bike has been a good thing ?
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An interesting article in today's - (Saturday July 3rd) Telegraph motoring section.
The statistics will be debated and argued over, no doubt. The caption to the photo says that 20per cent of bikers are women, but women make up 80 per cent of fatalities!
I find that just about unbelievable.
drbe.
Ps how do you do per centage sign?
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An interesting article in today's - (Saturday July 3rd) Telegraph motoring section. The statistics will be debated and argued over, no doubt. The caption to the photo says that 20per cent of bikers are women, but women make up 80 per cent of fatalities! I find that just about unbelievable. drbe.
drbe/Mark
Link posted earlier in this thread by Another John H is a Government report analysing in detail the causes of motorcycle casualties. It states the there are 15 times more men than females involved in accidents and that men make 7 times more journeys than females. It therefore concludes that men are twice as likely to get involved in accidents. Men are bigger risk takers and less cautious than females.
There are scores of statistics in the report:
Most accidents occur in weekday rush hour for example.
Young men still, by a long way, have the majority of accidents.
In accidents involving cars evidence suggests that more car drivers are at fault than bikers.
Given the vulnerability of bikers it amazes me than so many of them fail to ride defensively. Saying car drivers are at fault is no good as an epitaph.
If you are a Westerner be careful wandering alone around a Sunni enclave in Baghdad - it's a dangerous environment. Same with bikes on UK roads.
For Mark RBLS: that must have been an old Matchless 650 twin you owned. I had the 650CSR which was just about the fasted thing on the roads - with about a quarter of the power of modern sports machines.
C
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Probably not so many teeners on bikes are splattered around nowadays because those who might years ago have been able to afford me bikes can now afford cars?
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Spot of finger trouble there......
Probably not so many teeners on bikes are splattered around nowadays because those who might years ago have been able to afford only bikes can now afford cars?
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Last week in this thread, I posted that the Daily Telegraph (July 3rd) had reported that female motorcyclists made up 80% of fatalities.
I and probably others, commented that this seemed improbable.
Today, July 10th, the Telegraph has published a correction. The last year for which data is available is 2002; this shows that 34 women were killed, against 573 men. This I calculate to be 5.6% of the total.
Still very regrettable, but rather more believable.
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drbe,
That is in line with the Government figures I read - see my post of 03 July.
C
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IIRC the comment was that female casualties had increased by 80%.
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Re casuallties generally. The road death figures have declined steadily since the war, despite more traffic. Perhaps, sadly, we have reached a low, the practical limit beyond which the statistics are unlikely to fall. In that case figures are likely to fluctuate up and down year on year, bumping along the bottom, as it were.
Cheers, Sofa Spud
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If you live up to your name SS you'll have heard today's report on the horrific proportions of the hospital superbug, and I was thinking motorcyclists just might prefer Growler's scenario here in an accident to lying in an nhs bed with gravel rash...
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Sofa Spud = Couch Potato. Nil points for guessing that. Today I lived up to my name, but actually I'm a fairly active outdoor type and like an MCC Smart, I don't carry a spare tyre!
Cheers, Treadmill Tater
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ss,tt - I wonder if you're a noble kind of BR a bit like a King Edward, or, like me, more of a commentater ;)))
Keep it rubber side down Sofa Spud !!!
Best,
LZ
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>>>>>>>>If you live up to your name SS you'll have heard today's report on the horrific proportions of the hospital superbug, and I was thinking motorcyclists just might prefer Growler's scenario here in an accident to lying in an nhs bed with gravel rash...
Skin Graft City certainly sounds slightly less worse than superbugs!
People will always have accidents, that's it. It's because they do things. Like riding motorcycles, climbing ladders, wrestling alligators, putting their leg in the wrong hole in their underwear and falling over in the bathroom.
Unless they stay in bed all day, and even then they might fall out and hurt themselves.
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