I have an 1949 Morris minor that has been fitted with an 803cc engine and gearbox. I replaced the engine a while ago and since then have had a very bad judder when trying to set off in first gear. I have removed the box and fitted an new thrust plate, carbon plate and clutch plate all to no avail.There is no judder in reverse and the gear changes are reasonable.
I have the following options.
1. Try to obtain another gearbox and see if that will solve the problem
2. Fit a side valve engine and gearbox, This will involve obtaining a new more parts that are different and not an easy job
Is there anything you can suggest without resorting to the above major surgery.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/01/2009 at 12:57
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Might be worn/perished engine/gearbox mountings, don't think changing the gearbox would help.
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As I recall they had prop shaft probs ie uj`s .either front or rear.it was common on that car.judder was caused by pressure plate not correctly torqued.It is a long time since I worked on one.gearbox wont cause the prob.it will be caused by clutch poss by oil leak from rear main oil seal.(not always noticed)but usualy the case.I would not replace with sidevalve as I doubt that would cure it.think a case of gearbox off again.and make sure rear main isnt the prob.juddering is normally clutch prob?
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I would check all the engine and gearbox mountings to ensure they are tight and in good condition. also check the rear spring bushes are also in good condition.
I do not think by changing your gearbox or engine will solve the problem.
If I remember rightly these have a mechanical clutch linkage and the later models had hydraulic. If its mechanical the check all the linkage for wear.
When you changed the motor did you use the original engine mountings that came out or used the ones that came with the new engine ????
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Let's see now......faulty ECU? Problem with lambda sensor? Have you connected it to diagnostic equipment and read the fault codes?
(Sorry - couldn't resist it!)
Could there maybe be oil getting into the clutch? Are the engine / gearbox mountings sound? Prop shaft and diff OK? Did you change the clutch release bearing when you did the clutch? It could certainly be a gearbox fault - although if first gear engages cleanly and the rest of the gears show no problems its seems more likely to be 'outside the box'
Is the flywheel in good condition and firmly bolted to the engine? I once did a Renault 12 clutch and thought I'd be ultra thorough by having the flywhel skimmed - that actually prevented the new clutch from working properly, the tolerances were too fine!
If it's still under warranty, you could take it back to the dealer........
How refreshing to hear about the 'good old days' of motoring!
Good luck - let us know how you get on.
Graeme
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Not sure about the early models but the later ones have an engine steady bar to prevent judder. It's bolted to the bulhead and the rear of the top of the engine. There is also a gearbox steady cable underneath. Could be either or both of these (missing or worn).
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Lots of good stuff above. Can you sid stationary on the brakes and slip the clutch smoothly to the point of stalling the car without judder. If so this would imply its outwith the clutch but,linkages mounts etc etc. if it does tug and is rough then if you do you know the history of the 803 engine. If this came our of a car that had an oil contaminated clutch then the fly wheel casting may have absorbed oil. If this was/is the case then it will need to go in an oven at 130 degree c for at least 8 hours then cool naturally for 24 hours clean metholated spirit, Skimmed if you feel the surface merits that or a good rub down, and a new friction plate. Good Luck. What does the Morris Minor club suggest is the problem. Regards Peter
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From distant memory the early side valve version did not have an engine steady bar at the back os of the enigine. Hence there is unlikely to be a mounting point and one was probably not fitted when the new 803 engine fitted. (It bolted to a bracket below the battery tray I think). The gearbox steady cable only prevented fore and aft movement, I guess that this had some steadying effect on the clutch release linkage but wheter this was fitted on side valve engined cars I cannot recall. I will venture to the loft and workshop manuals later.
pmh (was peter)
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follow up
According to the BMC service manual for the MM series cars (with a section on Series 11 engined vehicles) the steady cable was only fitted on Series 11 from 264013 and from the diagrams provided it would appear that it was often retro fitted.
The Tie rod was only fitted (optionally) in early 803cc cars to overcome clutch judder, altho I think that it became a standard fitting later on.
If you Email me I will scan the pages and send to you.
Just an alternative thought, these cars suffered from axle tramp even when perfect, a broken rear spring will cause judder.
pmh (was peter)
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Good point pmh.I forgot that one.
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Was mech1
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I have just bought a low light 1950. We set off and on a hill it simply ran out of steam. No problem I thought, just stop, into first and away we go. No such luck. Hard revs and try to pull away. Lots of power but nothing going to move the car except apalling shaking, vibration etc. Finally got away using second gear and slipping the clutch madly. Slunk home and put car away - getting Skoda out for the trip. Did you find a cure to your problem? I'm not all that technical and haven't worked on a Minor since I left them in 1982.
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I have not tried any of the suggestions made via the back room but the consensus seems to be either engine or gearbox mounts. Have you got a side valve engine fitted? If so, then there is fix for the linkage in one of the workshop books which involves making another plate which is longer than the original. The other option is worn springs in the clutch or thrust plate. I am going to try the engine and gearbox mounts first before I start taking the gearbox out to replace the clutch. This will not be for some weeks yet. I guess you may be in the north east in which case try to get to TOM ROY at Great Ayton, he was very helpful when I called in once. Good Luck. let me know if you sort it
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Thanks. Yes, mine is the original sidevalve engine & gearbox. I was thinking that I'd try the engine & gearbox mounts first. Taking gearboxes out was what drove me to get a "proper car" twenty years ago! I was thinking of trying Tom Roy at Ayton - good to hear him recommended. Will let you know if I make progress.
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If 1st selected.if engine wont pull its down to timing some say its carb fault.that isnt always the case.bear in mind this carb did suffer from freezing on the main jet ie stalling.or engine not getting correct fuel mixture.bear in mind revs arent full power revving engine wont mean power,
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Was mech1
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Thanks for all the suggestions when I posted this last time. I have now replaced the engine and gearbox rubber mounts with new ones and re tensioned the engine stay and the cable on the gearbox/crossmember.Guess what the judder is still there but not as bad as the engine cannot move as much.
It still only judders in first gear and on the flat sometimes you can set off without any judder but on hills it is a nightmere and second gear and lots of revs usually does the trick, no judder in second.
Oh! I have also replced the propshaft just in case. I am now thinking gearbox and not clutch as there is no judder in reverese or when using second.
Does anyone have an 803 gearbox (long gearstick)
Or a set of linkages for the side valve clutch mechanism as the other option is to put the side valve in.
Alternatively andy one want to buy a 1949 low light in good working order just passed MOT but with slight problem setting off.
If the guy who had a problem with this who I replied to has got his fixed what did you do?
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Assuming that you did check the rear axle bushes, U bolt tightness, no broken spring leaves, the last thing can only be broken springs in the clutch plate, or possibly oil contamination.
Looks like gearbox out time!
How much are you selling it for? Where located?
pmh (was peter)
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I was looking for about £2000 which included the side valve engine,gearbox,propshaft, engine and gearbox mounts and any other bits that you fancy. I am willing to except any reasonable offer. I live in a village near Stafford about 15 minutes from the M6. Tel 07971 806627 Can e-mail pictures if you want. it is maroon and has had all the interior replaced. Just passed MOT with no work required again. Would make a greast little run about if Judder problem could be solved.
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Finally I have got around to trying to sort this problem. I removed the gearbox with my mate crinkly dave in his pit and replace the clutch plate. There was no sign of contamination on the plate but it did appear to be glazed and of alot harder material than the new plate I fitted. After sorting out an ignition problem, rotor arm replaced, and getting the old thing started the judder had gone. I even managed toi dirve it onto the trailer to take it home. It is still for sale but now drives much better and you can do hill starts without losing your fillings. Thanks for all the help
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Hi , I have the exact problem on my car and ,have replaced the clutch plate and clutch face plate asly ,but no improvement.
How did you solve the judder problem on your car?
There is no judder on the reverse gear as well as the second ,and not a problem on small slopes ,but it is a nightmare to take off on a slope.
i have new engine mounts and gear mounts.
Thanks ,Prad.
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I agree with Kith and PMH. Most older cars had a bar or rod from the chassis to the gearbox or clutch housing to prevent judder and making up one of these will fix the problem.
Good Luck
Tim
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Steady bar kit listed here:- www.morrisminor.co.uk/allparts.asp?Section=1&id=1#...1 way down the bottom of list. As a driver of two new Morris Marinas (Morris Minors in drag) back in the 1970's, I can confirm they both had clutch judder when setting off in first and they were brand new! Everyone said at the time "they all do that Sir, same as the Morris Minor." Similar A Series engine and gearbox setup.
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I had a 1960 Morris Minor 1000 (bought in 1964 with 19k on the clock) that I kept for several years - I can't remember it juddering at any time.
Wonderful little car - just needed even more power to take advantage of its "flickability"...
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What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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Back in 1970 or so we (Northants Police) had a police Morris 1000 (1100) 'Panda'car, and this had a bad judder when starting off. Duly reported it to the traffic sergeant who told me that I shouldn't be in first gear long enough to notice it. A while later the front suspension, or something in that area, collapsed. I don't know whether it caused an accident. P|eople think that police cars must be OK as they are well maintained !! They weren't then !
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I had a MM convertible-sorry tourer.1951 so lights in wing but split screen-side valve engine and mechanical clutch with TIEBAR-if the adjustment on the tiebar was incorrect,you got judder.You had to take a run at steep hills-if you stopped on a hill,you had to roll back down.
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