The 147 seems to have been a step back from the 156 in the build quality department - a shame, because the styling and engines are great.
at the risk of offending you.....
that\'s Pink Fluffy Dice I\'m afraid, you know not of what you speak.
;-)
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Not offended at all. You're a satisfied owner, I don't expect you to be objective - and as I said, your individual experience is statistically irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that Alfa came bottom of the 51/02 plate JD Power survey, being outperformed by that bastion of quality control that is Land Rover.
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Not offended at all. You're a satisfied owner, I don't expect you to be objective - and as I said, your individual experience is statistically irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that Alfa came bottom of the 51/02 plate JD Power survey, being outperformed by that bastion of quality control that is Land Rover.
I know of at least 2 other Alfa drivers on this very site both of whom pop up and say how happy they are with their cars.
*Every* Alfa driver I Know is completely satisfied with his/her car and I know quite a few. ( OK 1 exception )
I think it's you who are not objective, putting more weight in a survey, than the actual people who drive them.
You make a bald statement that is patently not true basing your opinion solely on the basis of a "survey" and I'm not objective.
LOL
JaB
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Interesting slanging match developing here!
I don't have long term experience of Alfas, but we did own two for a short time. One, a 75, we changed for a 164 because of its horrible driving position (at 6ft.2in I just couldn't get comfortable in it) and the 164 we changed after just a few months after my wife had an accident in it, and just didn't feel confident in it after that.
The chap who bought the 164 kept it for 9 years and got in touch with us last year, to say how much he had enjoyed the car. He included a photo and it still looked in lovely condition. It was worth next to nothing when he changed it for an Audi. I often wonder why he didn't choose another Alfa, after 9 years of satisfaction with the 164.
As people who have seen my postings before will know, we changed to Citroen, that other terribly unreliable make of car. Still have our Xantia 1.9 TD after 10 years and it is still super reliable and nice to drive. However, as I have been told before, it's only one car, so doesn't count.
I still drool over Alfas and have to have another before I give up driving for good. Sat in a GT the other day and it is beautiful.
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Not a "survey", a survey. And a survey based on a somewhat larger sample size than you and *every* Alfa driver you know... thousands of real-life ownership experiences. Which tend to say that the electrics can be suspect, the Selespeed boxes are problematic - oh, and the dealers mostly suck.
I find it fascinating how people choose to regard any criticism of the model or marque of their choice as a personal slight. It says something interesting about the extent to which a car is an emotional investment.
Buy a new 147 and the chances are it'll perform well and you'll only have a few niggles over the warranty period - as with most new cars. The surveys merely makes the point that you are considerably more likely to encounter problems if you purchase an Alfa than, say, a Toyota at the other end of the scale. The statistics are not open to any other interpretation.
Individual "satistified customer" experiences can be interesting, but they should be discounted in the same way as individual "horror stories". They only become relevant to making an informed purchasing decision if they are repeated on a statistically significant basis.
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Hey guys, you have to bear in mind a couple of things.
1/ Passionate exotic cars are bought by passionate exotic people
so will have firm views and the choice of wagon was not driven by mere practicalities. For people like this a fault is a mere gnat in the creamy ointment.
2/ People who complain bitterly about an exotic set of wheels, were trying to buy into that mindset, but it was only an act and they should have bought an Almera.
3/ Insult the choice of car for people like that and its like insulting the wife, both were chosen for the same qualities.
Just a bit of fun. ;)
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The trouble with surveys (and \"surveys\") is that it isn\'t compulsory to take part. Now human nature.... no, correction; British nature is to either crow about unexpectedly good results obtained at a bargain price (witness Skoda\'s ranking vs identical cars with other VAG badges) or whine like a worn bearing if things don\'t stack up.
They are rarely, if ever, completed by the satisfied masses.
Lies, damn lies and motoring surveys.
Now by all means start an Alfa slanging thread but I think we have reached the natural conclusion of this particular thread with the purchase of an MX-5. Fine choice there.
I won\'t lock this thread, but further specific discussion on Alfas, surveys and the like should really find their own home. There\'s a \"new topic\" button available you know...... (but I bet it plays the same old record).
:o)
No Dosh
Backroom Moderator
mailto:moderators@honestjohn.co.uk
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The other trouble with surveys is that they don't say whether multiple visits to the dealer were for the same problem or different ones. There also seems to be no mention of the type of problem either. Bad dealers would make any manufacturer look worse as problems which should be resolved in one visit take many so appear as multiple problems.
Manufacturers own records about warranty work would reveal quite a lot....
Now the oft has ruled that you can take your car anywhere for servicing will we find that alfa reliability actually increases once the cars are away from the main dealer monkeys? :-)
teabelly
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All I can say is that I drive a 156 JTD SW 850 miles per week and pay my own bills currently running at 34pence per mile. My wife runs a brand new fully expensed Toyota Corolla 1.4.
If we go out I'll only drive the Toyota as a last resort, it's uncomfortable, handles & drives like grey porridge with horrible overlight controls. I've just had on loan a 147 1.6 T SPark which went like hell and had no problems in 500+ miles and a New shape 156 1.9 MJet SW that was ballistically quick and was more economical than my 2.4. Again nothing went wrong fell off etc. Given the mileage I drive I'd rather drive something that I enjoy if one can enjoy an M25 trip rather than the GP Toyota which is boringly reliable.
Someone asked me the other day what I'd buy if I had a windfall. Answer a 156!
Jim
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Ah, another JTD SW owner.
[smug mode]
Good aren't they.
[/smug mode]
Don't worry, Mark will be along in a minute to call it a tractor.
I have to say the 1.9Mjet looks a winner on paper..... but I still look forward to the oft rumoured 158 3.0Mjet Sportwafon with 4x4. Now that will upset people
1) It's an Alfa
2) With a diesel engine
3) With more than 1400cc
4) An estate, no, make that a lifestyle estate
5) 4x4
All it will be lacking is bull bars!
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Friends got an Alfa GTV 3ltr V6 24v.
Loves it, very quick, not that uneconomical, looks fantastic and really quite comfy, sounds gorgeous.
However, had to replace rear axle, gets lots of electric faults (rear lights stopped working, no indicators, electric windows stopped working etc.) Also fairly bad depreciation.
Loves it but wouldnt have another. Bit of a steal for £9k for a used v6 tho.
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Never having owned one I can only speak as a spectator. The thing that always upsets my appreciation of any beauty in the beasts is that there is no sensible place to fit the front number plate and it is always fitted in an unbalanced afterthought fashion.
Perhaps they don't have front number plates in Italy?
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Perhaps they don't have front number plates in Italy?
home.wanadoo.nl/timovd/Cars/AlfaRomeo156swgta.jpg
They do have them. 's a lovely car, innit.
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Owned Alfas since 1977. Suds, 33s, Sprints, a 75 and now a 155. Next on the list is a 156 or a GTV6.
Never had any persistent problems with any of them except for the 75 which I suspect had a dodgy after-market immobiliser fitted. Always steer well clear of main dealer, use local specialists.
Best driver? Suds and Sprints without a doubt. Always looking for excuses to go out for a blast.
Most under-estimated? The 155, fabulous acceleration, totally reliable and surprisingly 32mpg.
Most disappointing? 33 with fuel injection.
Would I look at any other car? Yes, but only as short-term buy.
Porsche 944, MX5, Celica, VX220.
Do I like 'em? Check my name.
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I had an '81 W plate Guilietta 2.0 - simply beautiful in dark metallic green.
Performance and handling not great as I recall - and gearbox very poor - but i loved it like a posh girl loves a smack head.
Electrics caused no probs though, unlike my brother's 3.0 75....
CF
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I had an E reg (1998 ?) Alfa 33 some years ago.
Paid about 3300 for it in 1992 and sold it to a mate for 800 about 4 years later.
During that time I had no serious problems at all. A new battery and an exhaust I seem to remember.
I really liked the car and the guy I sold it to is still a mate.
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1988 !!!!! not 1998 ... sorry
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I'm sorry but JaB is correct. You are not being objective. You are giving more credence to this survey than to personal experiences, but have you stopped to check the true validity of the survey?
I think ND has gone into the types of people who answer these surveys below, but even ignoring that and assuming that a range of types answered it, do you even know how many people completed this survey?
If I remember rightly this was discussed on HJ a few months ago, and the answer was that 50 or less people completed the survey for most car models.
So, you are stating that these 50 people are far more relevant than JaB and his knowledge. Aside from the fact that I very much doubt 50 to be statistically significant when there are thousands of Alfa's on the roads, and the survey itself is entirely subjective, I happen to frequent an Alfa website, and through this I know of at least 3-400 regular posters who have entirely reliable Alfa's. By your stated criteria then, the survey is irrelevant, coz mine is bigger.
And this still ignores the fact that (again IIRC) the JDpower survey gives a Lotus Elise a higher score for practicality than the 5 door, estate 156 sportwagon. If ever something could clearly point out that the survey was ridiculous, that's got to be it.
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Did 170,000 trouble free miles in 2 Suds and a 33. Only problem was a flat battery.
My old Sud 1.3 Ti still ranks as the favourite car I've owned. Sadly written off by an errant van driver.
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The sample size would have to be far, far larger than 50 to have any statistical relevance, and I'm sure it was vastly greater in the case of JD Power. ND's point about the likely type of respondent to consumer satistfaction surveys is well made, but it does not change the basic point that collective experience is inevitably more illuminating than individual stories. As a buyer, I'd rather bear in mind the caveats attached to consumer surveys and assume that their objectivity was likely to be better than 400 contributors to an Alfa fan site!
Consider this: the Alfa 147 placed 116th out of 116 models in the Top Gear 2003 survey - a survey to which 43,000 people contributed. A pretty damning indictment of Alfa build quality by any definition, but then these surveys don't really tell us anything, do they?
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43,000 responded but how many were 147 owners? It still doesn't combat the point that those who choose to take part in an "opt-in" survey are less than likely to be a representative group and more likely to have an axe to grind.
You only need to go to the Top Gear website and read through the lemon reports to realise that every manufacturer makes a "duff" car (or more likely fails to manage their customers' expectations).
As previously mentioned, I've worked in the trade, I've driven most marques at some point, have run a number of Japanese cars, but still opted for an Alfa. Car ownership for me is a total package of driver experience, comfort, economy, suitability to my needs, styling, reliability and so on. If I were to choose solely on reliability and my own experience, it would have to be a Honda.
But I wouldn't get in the car each morning with a grin on my face.
Horses for courses. We all have different priorities and right now mine are met by my 156. It's not perfect, but it's a pretty good fit.
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The sample size would have to be far, far larger than 50 to have any statistical relevance,
Yep, that was my pointand I'm sure it was vastly greater in the case of JD Power.
This is also my point. You are 'sure' of this, yet have no proof. As I said, this was discussed on here before, and someone who had looked into it said that individual makes had as little as 50 completed surveys for them. I'm not saying that the Alfa only had 50, but as you point out, it would have to have far, far more than that to be relevant, and Alfa's aren't exactly the most common vehicle on the road. It would be interesting to know the real number, but I doubt JD would publish details, coz they know it would undermine their survey.
I'd rather bear in mind the caveats attached to consumer surveys and assume that their objectivity was likely to be better than 400 contributors to an Alfa fan site!
Ah well, personally I'd rather trust the opinion of 400 people on a site who are regulars I know, whose characters I can judge and whose opinions I know I can trust than an unknown number of complete strangers.
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If you seriously believe that the 147's placing in that survey is merely indicative of a few bitter owners with an "axe to grind", and has nothing to say to potential purchasers about the likely ownership experience of the 147 viz-a-viz other medium sized hatchbacks, I'm afraid I think you need help.
Anyone who knows anything about statistics knows that the way data is collated and compared relies on broadly comparable sample sizes to minimise the error ratio - a likely minimum for the TG survey was 300-350 per model. To question how many of the 43,000 respondents were Alfa 147 owners is, therefore, a nonsense; if they hadn't received sufficient responses, the car wouldn't have been included in any reputable survey in the first place!
I couldn't agree more that we all have different ownership priorities from a car. I think Alfas are great looking cars, with fine engines, and mechanically durable at that. I would seriously have considered a 147 GTA in March, had I believed that Alfa have finally nailed their quality control. I don't - therefore I bought a Honda Civic Type-R, which brings plenty of grins to my face incidentally.
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Looking on the c******** website and their smiley vs unhappy face counters for the alfa 147 2001 reviews there are 9 :-| faces, 14 :-) faces and 6 :-(
For the vw golf 2001 reviews there are 4 :-|, 14 :-) and 15 :-( faces.
For the 2003 year:
Alfa 1 :-|, 2 :-( and 8 :-)
VW 3 :-|, 2 :-( and 12 :-)
For non vag cars (to exclude the coil pack effect)
Ford Focus 2001 12 :-| , 41 :-) and 16 :-(
2003 2 :-|, 13 :-) and 3 :-(
teabelly
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If you seriously believe that the 147's placing in that survey is merely indicative of a few bitter owners with an "axe to grind", and has nothing to say to potential purchasers about the likely ownership experience of the 147 viz-a-viz other medium sized hatchbacks, I'm afraid I think you need help.
If you seriously believe that those 400 people have actually all got cars which let them down constantly, and all just claim that they never break because they're 'enthusiasts', I'm afraid you need help.
Anyone who knows anything about statistics knows that the way data is collated and compared relies on broadly comparable sample sizes to minimise the error ratio - a likely minimum for the TG survey was 300-350 per model. To question how many of the 43,000 respondents were Alfa 147 owners is, therefore, a nonsense; if they hadn't received sufficient responses, the car wouldn't have been included in any reputable survey in the first place!
OK, this is exactly my point. anyone who knows anything about statistics knows that you need a load of results to minimise potential errors. We agree on this yes? And people on this web-site have found out that for the JDPower survey they included any cars which they got more than 40-50 results for.
You can say that they wouldn't do this as much as you like. THEY DID. As reputable as you think them, they have obviously set such a low number because that way they include more car models, and look more complete.
had I believed that Alfa have finally nailed their quality control. I don't
That's fine, you can believe exactly what you want, but your believing it does not make it a fact, which is what you keep trying to present it as.
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but then these surveys don't really tell us anything, do they?
Really? apparently they told you that the 147 is significantly worse built than 156's, even tho' I think I'd be safe to assume you have never been near one or looked at one or sat in one.
Once again you talk about objectivity, yet for you a survey of an unknown number of respondants outweighs the collective experiences of over 400 alfa owners just because the majority of them happen to overturn the image *you* have of Alfas.
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If they contribute to Alfa fan sites, they are enthusiasts, they are not just owners. Big difference. I'm aware that Alfa owners are more likely to be marque enthusiasts than Vauxhall drivers (hence all this gallant defence of the perceived injustice of all these inconvenient statistics) but still...
I think we can turn it round and state that enthusiasts are likely to be much more willing to forgive a car its little foibles than, say, a company car driver who relies on his car being on the road when he needs it to be, not at the dealership.
I've driven the 147, been a passenger in a 156 and liked both. Doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't buy one.
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This reputable survey of which you speak. Designed to provide a serious service to the car-buying public or to sell magazines?
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Both, I'd imagine. Personally, I'd be happier looking at large scale commpany-car reliability surveys than 'consumer' orientated ones which measure intangibles like 'satisfaction' Satisfaction is largely defined by expectation, as you say; it helps to explain why Skoda does well.
So yes, they're flawed and imperfect - it doesn't make them meaningless. I still maintain they're better market research than "my mate down the road has one, and he thinks it's great".
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I think we can turn it round and state that enthusiasts are likely to be much more willing to forgive a car its little foibles than, say, a company car driver who relies on his car being on the road when he needs it to be, not at the dealership.
If you believe that being an enthusiast means we don't get annoyed or upset when our cars let us down then you are truly deluded.
Being an enthusiast about anything doesn't turn you into an idiot you know.
Unlike you, I give no credence to these statistics because *MY* personal experience completely contradicts it.( and the experience of just about every other owner I know)
The only issue with you was the incorrect statement that the 147 build quality is inferior to the 156. As far as *MY* personal experience is concerned you are wrong... *YOU* chose to hold up the survey as proof of your statement, and then use the same survey to tell me that my personal experience doesn't count.
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I'm tempted to say that your statement in Para 3 contradicts your preceding statement, but I won't ;)
Your personal experience counts very much for you, of course. All manufacturers reply on repeat business to generate sales.
You're dead right in one aspect; if I owned and loved my Alfa, I wouldn't give two figs for JD Power et al when it came to replacing it.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be, er, deluded enough to try and argue that my flawless ownership experience meant that Alfa had somehow attained Japanese levels of quality and consistency. It clearly hasn't.
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On the other hand, I wouldn't be, er, deluded enough to try and argue that my flawless ownership experience meant that Alfa had somehow attained Japanese levels of quality and consistency. It clearly hasn't.
Er... I'm sorry I missed that post?
When or where did I say that they were like japanese cars?
we'll have to agree to disagree I think....
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That's effectively exactly what you are saying with "I give no credence to these statistics" - you don't accept that the fact that the Alfa 147 and Toyota Corolla are at opposite ends of what you regard as an arbitrary satisfaction scale means anything in the real world.
I think it does mean something - that's where we differ. Enjoy your car.
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Ok then JaB and Burnout, I think that's ding-ding, end of bout and the judges decision is....... a draw.
:o)
So, who's got experience (good or bad) or has friends/family with similar? Who wants an Alfa (past, present or future) and why? If you want one but don't have one, what will trigger the purchase?
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I would love one, and if I wasn't doing so many miles I would have one I'm sure.
I think most ordinary folk think them to be good drives but unreliable - rightly or wrongly. If it is wrongly then I would say it is a failing of Alfa for not making the effort to put the record straight.
Have any of these car mags had one on long-term test - if so, what was the outcome?
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Have any of these car mags had one on long-term test - if so, what was the outcome?
I think Evo had a 166 on long term test, I think it was largely favourable.
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>> Have any of these car mags had one on long-term test >> - if so, what was the outcome? I think Evo had a 166 on long term test, I think it was largely favourable.
Check the "Fast Fleet".
JaB
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I had a look round a 156 GTA estate thingy at lunchtime today. Lovely interior and engine, body kit is a wee bit much. Guess how much though for an 04 Plate with 70 miles on it from the Alfa main dealer?? List is £29,500??
Also had a sit in the new GT Coupe as well. Lovely shape, very pretty car, interior not so hot on closer inspection, and the gear level is about a foot long.
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We run 2 Alfas, a 156 GTA and a 147 JTD, both done around 18k miles, both very reliable (1 warranty work carried out on each, the 156 warped discs, the 147 2 elements of the heated rear window), both fixed at 12k miles service, so in 18months of the GTA, and 12 for the 147 they've been off the road for a total of 3 hours each, not too bad!
Added to that they are both fantastic to drive (especially the GTA) then I am extremely happy!
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I was looking at 156's for a bit - then I discovered it only had 2 doors ;-].
Lovely cars - maybe one day..
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...and the 147 JTD is a real rip-snorter.
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Whatever you say about Alfas at least they look nice. Now Lancias - horrible rot boxes and ugly too! Remember the Thema?
Roger in Spain
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Any second now, someone will post about the 8.32 Thema with the Ferrari engine.
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Oiiiii! I have a very attractive delta designed by guigaro (sp??) you cheeky thing! The rot was in the betas and they were no worse than the British rusty before they got to the new owner cars that BL were doing at the time. The thema was also available with a ferrari engine so they weren't exactly ordinary cars. Thinking person's (read poor) maserati are lancia.
teabelly
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GF runs a 156. She's done 50000 odd miles now in the last 2 years, gets it serviced at a local specialist in Leighton Buzzard (who are brilliant) and has had no problems whatsoever. Only slight issue is that it seems to be attracted to potholes and the Veloce low profile tyres have a habit of bursting.
We're looking at a SW now to replace her saloon, She wouldn't look at anything else..
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GF runs a 156. She's done 50000 odd miles now in the last 2 years, gets it serviced at a local specialist in Leighton Buzzard (who are brilliant) and has had no problems whatsoever. Only slight issue is that it seems to be attracted to potholes and the Veloce low profile tyres have a habit of bursting. We're looking at a SW now to replace her saloon, She wouldn't look at anything else..
Like potholes are easy to avoid in Leighton Buzzard....
Yes... they are very good and they certainly know their Alfa's and FIATs. They've been doing my cars for about 10 years now.
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