Please tell us that last comment was a joke Kith!
Have you ever driven in rain following a car with its rear fog lights lit?
Every rain bead that hits your screen is filled with red light, as is the spray plume from the offending vehicle, it is a lethal practice.
It's bad on a slower moving 'A' road, but on a faster moving road it is much worse. I personally find it hard to comprehend what makes drivers think they're helping following vehicles by having rear fogs lit in those conditions, they've obviously never been on the receiving end.
I stay well back from vehicles in this situation because the thinking time between seeing brake lights and actually pressing the brake pedal is long enough in the best of conditions.
PP
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Driver must have put a bit too much pressure on the switch, so instead of the front fogs that they have to have on every trip, you got the rears too ;-).
Bless 'em.
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Sorry but I dont know how you can decide that foglights in the rain are a no no. Surely every situation will be different. I have driven in appalling heavy rain where you couldnt see the car 20 yards infront, and I put my foglights on, however in light rain or times when visibility is ok I wouldnt.
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Sorry but I dont know how you can decide that foglights in the rain are a no no. Surely every situation will be different. I have driven in appalling heavy rain where you couldnt see the car 20 yards infront, and I put my foglights on, however in light rain or times when visibility is ok I wouldnt.
I'd wholeheartedly agree with that. From memory, the Highway Code says that foglights should only be used when visibilty is severely reduced, i.e. less than 100 metres. To my mind, if heavy rain and spray is reducing visibilty to less than 100m then it is perfectly acceptable to use rear fogs.
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Sorry PP but In very heavy spray on a crowded motorway its impossible to see what cars are lurking in multiple spray balls. If I cant see the cars rear lights in a spray ball up front my hi intesity rear lights go on. Some dork might not be as far away from my rear end as you are, and if you are as far back as you say you are then you shouldnt have a red screen.
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I think the clue is in the name, ie "Fog Lights"
If they were meant for use in rain, then they would have been called Rain lights.
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What are foglights?
My car is fitted with High Intensity Rear Lights I believe.
Then to rule 201 'You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 211).'
This makes no reference to fog, merely to the distance you are able to see. At a ceiling of 14 inches, in heavy rain, this distance is considerably less than the 100 metres referred to above.
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What are foglights? My car is fitted with High Intensity Rear Lights I believe. Then to rule 201 'You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 211).' This makes no reference to fog, merely to the distance you are able to see. At a ceiling of 14 inches, in heavy rain, this distance is considerably less than the 100 metres referred to above.
"What are Fog lights?". They are the lights mentioned in rule 201 of the highway code, which YOU quoted in the same posting!
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Call them what you like - my position stands
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All these problems seem to me to stem from the basic lack of proper design given to rear lights generally.
A great deal of effort has gone into designing front lights that do not dazzle, yet serve their intended purposes of illuminating the road for the driver and making the car visible to other drivers.
Yet at the rear the different lights are
a) not sufficiently distinct physically, to avoid confusion of fog and brake lights
b) inconsistent in their positioning on different models of car
c) no direction of beams, just an all-round glow.
If the red fog lights had directed, dipped beams like headlights, then they wouldn't create a blurred red dazzle on water droplets on the windscreen.
Likewise reversing lights should be made that illuminate the road instead of simply blinding the driver behind.
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The highway code gives indications as to the use of fog-lights which refer to reduced visibility - it doesn't specify fog.
If visibility is reduced whether regardless of the cause, then I use fog lights - if anyone is that close that this causes them problems, then they're probably too close anyway for the conditions.
And I always switch them off when conditions improve - honest!
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Well what a inconsiderate lot some of us are.
Rear fog lights & rain = Dazzle - FACT
I don't want to get back ended as much as the next person, I also don't like dazzling other motorists which in itself can create an accident.
I wonder how many of us follow the Highway Code when it comes to letting buses out?.................... Nah, didn't think so.
PP
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Please re-read the extract from the Highway Code posted above, Peterperfect. One is permitted to use rear foglights when visibility drops below 100 metres. Please would you indicate where we contravene the letter of the H. Code when using rear foglights in conditions of extreme spray, such that visibility is reduced to (considerably) below 100 metres.
The inconsiderate ones under such circumstanceds are those not properly illuminated as encouraged by the H. Code, not using their rear foglights.
I shall be interested to read your response! Now of course using rear foglights when visibility is > 100m is quite a different matter.
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As I said, if foglights, like headlights, were designed to cast beams on the road rather than just all-round red glare, then they wouldn't dazzle whatever the visibility.
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So you've never seen a headlight cause dazzling or glare?
Lucky devil.
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I can just see the scene now, everyone has their rear fogs on in heavy rain on the motorway, one person brakes hard, no-one knows whose rear lights have actually just got brighter because of the red haze everywhere and BANG Oops!
I'm afraid my opinion isn't going to be changed on this one guys, and the Highway Code rule being quoted is far too vague to have any bearing on the exact situation I'm talking about.
Common sense isnt what it used to be IMHO.
Ah well, never mind.
PP
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\'Common sense isnt what it used to be IMHO.\'
Absolutely agree. Foglights can always be confused with brake lights, so the obvious common sense conclusion is that foglights shouldn\'t be fitted at all.
Common sense says that in order not to be hit from behind when your car is in a ball of spray such that it cannot be seen within 100m, foglights are clearly recommended by the Highway Code.
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I don't see it saying that they are recommended anywhere, only permitted.
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Mapmaker, I do not wish to enter into a tiresome, pointless arguement about what is right and wrong about this.
It is quite clear that opinion is split on the subject and I'm afraid I have to agree to disagree with those in favour of using rear fogs in rain.
We're all entitled to our opinions after all, and as ND stated, the Highway Code doesn't actually recommend their use, it merely states that it is allowed.
Lots of things are allowed but are not necessarily right in all situations.
That's my last word on the subject.
PP
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Fair point, yuou are of course both right, and I am very very wrong.
I think there is a distinction though between use in rain (which is breaching the above rule), and use in very heavy spray - of the sort generally not seen in the UK, much more common on the Continent.
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A couple of points:
1. In no way was visibility below 100 metres in the case that started this thread.
2. I do not believe that visibility in rain in the UK could get below 100 metres. I've seen tropical rainstorms that might, just might, have got below 100 metres, but never in the UK. Pace 100 metres from your front door and imaging the rainstorm that would stop you seeing it. Most unlikely.
V
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A couple of points: 1. In no way was visibility below 100 metres in the case that started this thread. 2. I do not believe that visibility in rain in the UK could get below 100 metres. I've seen tropical rainstorms that might, just might, have got below 100 metres, but never in the UK. Pace 100 metres from your front door and imaging the rainstorm that would stop you seeing it. Most unlikely. V
It's not just the rain tho' is it? It's the spray that reduces visibility because the spray behind vehicles takes on the properties of a mist.
Oh FTR, I hate rear fog lights
jab
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Highway code doesn't distinguish between rain/fog/snow or even sandstorms.
www.highwaycode.gov.uk/21.shtml
The law is typically nonsensical on this point, you can be prosecuted for leaving fog lamps on in fine weather but cannot be prosecuted for not putting them on in a pea souper (providing you've got your headlamps on).
Just as well we don't get too many occasions where this actually becomes an issue.
For once, I actually agree with the French (Jeez, that was harder than the Fonz saying sorry) - when it's raining the the maximum speed on autoroutes is reduced.
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For once, I actually agree with the French (Jeez, that was harder than the Fonz saying sorry) - when it's raining the the maximum speed on autoroutes is reduced.
Yes, reduced to 68 from the usual 82. Whereas over here it would be an excuse to reduce it to 50 and apply a "Driving in the Rain" tax.
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If manufacturers made vehicles with a single fog light in the centre (low down), then no-one could ever get them confused with brake lights.
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Well said, BB. That is basically what I was trying to say, above the noise of driving rain. The problem is a design one. No thought has been given to physically separating the fog lights from the brake lights so that they don't get confused, nor has any consideration been given to making fog lamps with directional beams that don't dazzle.
(Yes, No Dosh, headlamps can dazzle. But not as much as they would if they didn't have directional, dipped, beams)
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The trouble with a focussed as opposed to a diffused beam is that unless you were in the beam's focus, the lamp would appear less bright than a normal rear light. If you countered this by upping the wattage you would end up searing the retinae of those unfortunate enough to wander into the beam.
A "beam" is appropriate when you need to see by it, but diffused is most appropriate if it is to be seen. Witness scotchlite reflective panels (sides of police cars, stripy bits on hi-viz jackets) and you are seeing one of the best designed diffused reflectors on the market. You can't stick a bulb in front of a scotchlite pannel and expect to see using the reflection, but someone half a mile away would see you!
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The problem is a design one. No thought has been given to physically separating the fog lights from the brake lights so that they don't get confused
I drove round the M25 very early on tuesday morning thorugh thick fog where hi-intensity rear lights were definitly required, but as cliff says, putting the fog-lights next to the respective brake light is the-very-worst place to site them.
I followed a Focus for a while which has just the one fog light, right down low on the offside, about 4 feet away from the rear/brake lights which are high up on the focus' rear - good, simple, safe design and minimal dazzle.
CF.
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the rear/brake lights which are high up on the focus' rear - good, simple, safe design and minimal dazzle.
Except when there's been a hard frost or snow overnight and the muppet driving the Focus hasn't bothered to clear the frost or snow from their rear lights.
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If manufacturers made vehicles with a single fog light in the centre (low down), then no-one could ever get them confused with brake lights.
You mean like the Peugeot 206?
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The only time I have seen my "screen filled with red light" is when I have been close up behind a vehicle with fog lights (or brake lights) on in the rain, sat in traffic. I would suggest that travellng too close to the vehicle in front would probably be the reason for the screen being filled with red light and also the cause of the mayhem mentioned in the "somebody braking hard" scenario. As RF mentioned it makes sense that if you cannot see the lights of a vehicle in front because of the spray then his high intensity/fog lights would make him more visible. In that situation I too would put them on. I personally think fog lights are no longer necessary on modern vehicles because of the improvement in lens technology and the sheer size of rear lights now and I barely ever use mine (so it's not me dazzling you PP ;-) ).
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"Have you ever driven in rain following a car with its rear fog lights lit?.....I stay well back from vehicles in this situation...."
Then I'd say the driver in front has achieved exactly what he set out to do by having his fog lights on.
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Dazzling the following driver, thats correct SR.
PP
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No - persuading him to stay back a safe distance.
If he's dazzled in the spray he's probably too close.
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:-)
Am I the only one who thinks the title of this thread sounds like a cue for a song....
Foglight/High Intensity Lights are very good when used correctly and sensibly...
JaB
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It seems to me
that she lived her life
like a foglight in the rain....
Erm... yes, I agree. When used correctly, very useful, when used wrongly a bane on the life of every motorist behind.
In fog with nothing behind I have mine on, when someone appears behind me, then he knows I'm there so I turn them off to avoid dazzle. (Unless the fog is REALLY thick of course, and requires them to be left on even then, but I think I've been in fog that thick twice in my life)
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People who use foglights in the rain should be made to drive a City Rover painted bright pink.
Don't get me started on the use of front foglights after dark...!
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Again, I don't think this can be stated so black & white. In the vast majority of cases you're right, they shouldn't be used. There are very infrequent times though when the rain is so hard, and the spray so thick that there is a genuine case for being worried about people being able to make you out from the rear. In this case I do as I stated before, leave my rear fogs on until I can see a car behind, then switch them off - by that time the driver is aware of my presence, and there's no need to risk any dazzle.
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VW fit only ONE high intensity rear light.
The logic is that it does not mask both brake lights.Not to save money.
I agree with what many say ; but I'll drive as defensively as the conditions demand. I'll put on my high visibility rear light if I have trouble seeing the car in front.
I wasna fu but just had plenty.
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Yep, Try it to the tune of "Riders on the storm"
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apologies to both the BR and Hans Zimmer,but.....
i'm starting to get the "fog-ged issue blues" :-).
billy.
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On a motorway or indeed any road you should be concentrating more on what's happening 2/3 cars ahead than the car in front - that's where the problem is occuring which will cause the bloke in front of you to slam on the anchors (if he himself isn't reading the road right). Fogs in rain on a car 2/3 cars ahead are pretty much indistinguishable from brake lights and that is what is so dangerous - you have to spend more time distinguishing between what might be a brake light or might be a fog light and that means less time to allocate to reading other road conditions. If you're so close to the bloke in front in heavy rain that his fogs are a major problem to your vision then back off until they're not and simply conclude that he is a bone head.
Conclusion - fogs in rain diminish other drivers' ability to read the complete picture and therefore to use them this way is irresponsible.
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With the sort of rain - or rather spray - envisaged in this post (certainly by me), you're lucky to be able to see the car in front with its foglights on. Let alone the car 3 cars in front, even if he has got his foglights on.
Conclusion: being invisible behind a cloud of spray diminishes the ability of other drivers to realise you are even there.
I don't think using fogs in rain is something I've ever wanted to do in the UK. Though I dare say if I'd been driving around a week or two ago I might have.
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If it's truly that bad, then the only sensible way to drive is you drop back to such a distance that you can barely see the guy in front even with his fogs = not a problem.
When conditions improve, revert to what I described.
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On motorways in moderate to heavy rain, spray is the issue, so much so that you cannot see 2/3 cars ahead.
In these conditions the fogs go on, I feel safer knowing that whoever is behind will get an additional couple of seconds braking time.
If you see a brake light go on, that could be the first time you're aware of that car. Therefore you'll be closer than you would have been if that person had been using fogs - ANY additional braking distance is always worthwhile.
You might want to consider how many motorway accidents are shunts from behind, I suspect most are down to lack of concentration but there are an awful lot more in bad weather when visibility is poor and braking distances are longer.
If anyone is so close to anyone in rain that fogs are a problem, as you say they have the option of backing off.
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If anyone is so close to anyone in rain that fogs are a problem, as you say they have the option of backing off.
And the miscreant has the option of turning the fogs off ~ they're fogs not rains.
(What am I doing ~ I made a New Years resolution not to comment on foglight use ever again!)
--
L'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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Miscreant in your opinion, you're welcome to provide evidence to prove your theorem though?
However, the highway code suggests that fog lights should be used in impaired visibility which I shall continue to do so, be it fog, spray, Saharan duststorms.
Happy new year!!!
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However, the highway code suggests that fog lights should be used in impaired visibility
No. The Highway code says that fog lights MAY be used.
"201. You MUST use headlights when visibility is seriously reduced, generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet). You may also use front or rear fog lights but you MUST switch them off when visibility improves (see Rule 211).
Law RVLR regs 25 & 27 "
Whenever we are given some discretion we are bound to differ on the action to take. Note however that Fog lights MUST be turned off when visibility improves.
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"Whenever we are given some discretion we are bound to differ on the action to take."
Agreed.
In my experience, given the appalling state of some of our roads in the UK, rain and spray conditions can be severe enough that cars become invisible, particularly if grey or dark coloured, and at twilight.
Personally I am more inclined to go along with the HC's suggestion and illuminate rear fogs (accepting the minor risk of dazzling someone who is too close to my rear end) than run the risk of being invisible and having same idiot plough into me.
Ed.
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However, the highway code suggests that fog lights should be used in impaired visibility which I shall continue to do so, be it fog, spray, Saharan duststorms.
So you have no problems with me following you on high beam then? After all - according to you - if my visibility is impaired, I am entitled to drive on high beam to see much better in front of me.
Actually, the only time I find my visibility impaired is when someone in front of me has their rear fog lights on in rain.
If you need your rear fog lights on because of the spray you're kicking up, you're probably going too fast for the conditions in the first place.
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I'm on a clear road and its raining, if you want to follow me and be hypocritcal, by all means.
What I don't want is to be shunted by you cos you didn't see my 5watt lights when you could have had far more advance warning with a 21w fog lamp.
so you'll criticise me for probably going too fast but you're determined to keep up with me and dazzle me at the same time?
I rather suspect in the conditions I'm talking about you'll dazzle yourself, as most of the light will be reflected back.
I dislike fog lights being used inappropriately as much as everyone, however in certain conditions, heavy spray being one of them I will exercise the right to use them as laid down in the highway code.
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>>What I don't want is to be shunted by you cos you didn't see my 5watt lights when you could have had far more advance warning with a 21w fog lamp.<<
But if your fogs make it hard to see that you are braking you are making it more likely you'll be shunted.
That's kind of the point of the whole thread, but your closing sentence makes me think this is all in vain - good luck to you, I hope you're never shunted and that I never drive behind you.
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but you\'re determined to keep up with me and dazzle me at the same time?
So it\'s ok for you to dazzle me with your rear fog lights, but not for me to dazzle you with my main beam head lights?
My motto is; if anyone dazzles me, they get a taste of their own medicine.
however in certain conditions, heavy spray being one of them I will exercise the right to use them as laid down in the highway code.
If I see heavy spray in front of me, it\'s obvious that a car is in front of me. I don\'t need your, or anyone elses rear fog lights on telling me so.
Carry on using your rear fogs lights by all means, but one day plod might just give you a fixed penalty notice for causing undue dazzle (offence code LR20)
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I hate the use of fog lights when not required. some people seem to switch them on and then leave them on for weeks as they've forgotten.
For me if you can see cars behind you then you don't need them on. It really makes it difficult to see cars ahead braking if they are on.
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I've just been informed that at one time (not long ago) some of the younger generation considered it to be "cool" to use foglights at all times. Let's hope that this was just a passing fad.
--
L'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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I never do understand why this is such a biggie...
If I struggle to see the car in front, then I put my rear fogs on. Front fogs (or whatever you want to call them), IMO, are pretty damned useless and only of some value when on country and/or tiny roads and its very foggy.
I do turn them off when the conditions change. Some people don\'t. I can\'t say it bothers me overmuch, although it looks dumb. The lights are quite bright, but since I don\'t stare into them my retinas have remained unseared.
I can understand in theory how they could mask the brake lights, but I don\'t believe it in practice - certanly its never happened to me.
I have never been blinded or had my vision obscured by lights on the back of the car. And if it did happen, dropping back a few yards would probably stop that. Every now and again you get one coming towards you with silly bright lights, but no problems from the rear.
Bright rear lights ? About like baseball caps on backwards - it looks pretty dumb but I can\'t say it really matters to me.
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My motto is; if anyone dazzles me, they get a taste of their own medicine.
Why stop there DD - pull 'em over and give 'em a good hiding I say - It's the only language they understand
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It was a mistake to do away with the road side Gibbet.
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"So it's ok for you to dazzle me with your rear fog lights, but not for me to dazzle you with my main beam head lights?"
Difference is that the car with the rear fogs may be doing so for a genuine reason, and the driver behind has the option to drop back. I can't see the problem in heavy spray, but in light rain there's no need for them.
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Perhaps fog lights should be 10-15 watts. Brighter than normal tail lights (5w), but less bright than brake lights(21w).
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The way people are bleating away on here you would think some cars had star wars type lasers fitted in the back.
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The way people are bleating away on here you would think some cars had star wars type lasers fitted in the back.
I want those fitted at the front, to take out rear fog lights when used inappropriately, i.e. when visibility is clearly above 100 metres.
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I want those fitted at the front, to take out rear fog lights when used inappropriately
;-) and we should be able to get out and smash front fog lights if used inappropriately....
JaB
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And smash indicators if the driver clearly doesn't need them.
No, a BMW badge is not enough evidence, thank you!
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Foglights used in any other circumstances other than FOG, hence why the name Fog lights......carries 3 penalty points.
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I won't pass opinion on foglights in the rain (I'm sure I've done it before) but what about headlights in the sun? What's the point of that?
It doesn't bother me in the least, but I've seen a few over the past few days. What's all that about? (And no, not on cars that have them on permanently)
We had joy, we had fun
We had headlights in the sun
But the foglights in the rain
Are back to haunt us yet again
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I find it easier to see a car with headlights on if the sun is shining directly toward me, so I generally put my side lights on in the hope that it makes me more visible. Seems unlikely to distract anyone. Did read once that most motorbikes ride with lights to make them more visible, so why don't cars?
My comment on foglights (sorry if it repeats what others have said) is that they are best not used - generally if you can see the car behind in mirror without front fogs on, they can see you. I do find them very distracting as I find brake lights far less visible on a car with rear fogs on.
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Did read once that most motorbikes ride with lights to make them more visible, so why don't cars?
The argument I've heard bikers themselves use is that if all vehicles started doing it, it would negate the effect of the bikers doing it in the first place.
My comment on foglights (sorry if it repeats what others have said) is that they are best not used - generally if you can see the car behind in mirror without front fogs on, they can see you.
OK, bringing it full circle: And what if you CAN'T see the car behind in your mirrors?
My point is, that is EXACTLY when you need to use the rear fogs, so the hypothetical car behind catches sight of you before he's right up your chuff. Once the car behind IS visible, then obviously so are you, and it's sensible to turn the fogs off.
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Foglights used in any other circumstances other than FOG, hence why the name Fog lights......carries 3 penalty points.
Is that what they are called in a legal context? And if that is the case, why does the highway code permit their use in any conditions causing low visibility?
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Do you have a reference for this, please KarenDI? I am sure given your job you will have this information at hand.
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Overwhelming sound of silence - quel surpris!
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Do you have a reference for this, please KarenDI? I am sure given your job you will have this information at hand.
Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989, 25 & 27.
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27 (3) Manner of use prohibited:
(b) Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility.
Comment
So thats seriously reduced visibility, not exclusively fog.
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Yay!
Must make a note of this thread so whent this subject comes up again in 3 months time I can post a link and close the thread down......
[evil mod mode]
}o>
[/evil mod mode]
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Depends on what kind of summer we have..........
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well if we have THAT sort of a summer...
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27 (3) Manner of use prohibited:
(a) Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to the driver of a following vehicle.
Comment
So thats using them in the rain.
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oh pfd !!
Kevin - I have just deleted your note.
You asked a question and in replying I mistakenly edited your note which made it look as if you had written my reply - so now I\'ve had to remove the whole thing.
Humble apologies and a fair amount of blushing.
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