RE HJ's report on the Ford Mondeo. If you had £20,000 would you buy that Mondeo? It will be worth £10,000 after just 1 year.
I predict that the Mondeo will be discontinued by Ford within the next 5 years. The large family car market is rapidly disappearing. People buy either small executives or MPVs. Mondeo man can't afford to lose £200 per week on depreciation, however well it drives.
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Other motors that fit the criteria imo:
P 406
Nissan Primera (massive discounts 24/7)
Vaux Vectra
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It is not worth buying a large new car - the market to go for is a german mid range model, or toyota rav4 or MB SLK - two of the best cars for holding their value. I think the Porsch 911 fits in nicely between the two aforementioned motors.
I'm looking for a new MB C class Elegance SE before replacemnt model arrives in May. Seriously considering the RAV 4 for its quality and holding value.
MM
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Sorry Motorwayman, you're considering a RAV4 over a Mondeo. Hmm. Without wishing to offend anyone but don't you think it's a bit of a women's car?
I don't understand why you want one, they're hidious for a start and the Mondeos made just as well or have you bought into the 'perceived better build quality' thing?
Buy a Mondeo and feel smug that you've bought one of the best cars ever made, just don't buy it new or for full price! ;-)
Kev
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Northenkev, you may be right about the RAV4 - but you sit up high and get that commanding view. Plus it holds it value well. IMO, MB's, newish ones get scratched more by jealous idiots out there.
Re Mondeo comments - I have a brother-in-law that works for the ford motor co and he can get me a mondeo on a 30% discount - discounts vary across the range, typically 20 to 30% - they've recently stopped the free insurance perks, etc. I generally agree that it may be worth buying a year old but my experience with our car - purchased new, one driver, so many things on the suspension that went wrong has put me off - but it has a lot of toys and the very comfy seats on my Ghia
Last night we were considering buying as a run-about, Fiesta Ghia, auto (new auto box is good) at a 30% discount and changing it every year.
I will let you know if I go ahead and change our car.
MM
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Motorway man, have you considered a Honda CRV over a RAV4? I know people will say that I'm only saying this cos I now sell them, but honestly, someone was showing me the CRV today and it's design features are first class.
The reat seats slide backwards and forwards to create the best mix of either passenger or luggage room. Also, in the boot of the Executive model that I was looking at, you lift the carpet up to reaveal a picnic table that you can take out anywhere, and under that is a waterproof well type thing for chucking wet swimming costumes etc. into after a day out, it's all plastic so it's easily cleaned, and it's ideal if you're carrying something that might leak, like paint.
Honestly mate, Honda have put a lot of thought into the CRV, and it shows in the way the car works. It's certainly worth a look before signing on the line for a RAV!
Blue
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thanks Blueoval - one of my family always buys the honda accord, i've been in it and build quilatity, etc is good but i just don't like it, The CRV, never been in one as i dont like the out of proportion longish shape on it.
thanks
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Mmmmm, the New Accord! I so wish the company car insurance would extend to that! ;-)
You aren't confusing the CRV (looks a lot like the RAV), with the HRV are you? The HRV is the one that looks particularly long...
Whatever you get, enjoy it! I'm picking an HRV up from another branch tommorow and I'm dying to see what it's like...
Blue
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Never read so much rubbish in my life.
Splodgeface
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Most £20k cars are going to be worth £2k or so after 6-8 years. You simply choose whether to pay the depreciation in the early years or the later ones - Mondeos depreciate more slowly than Mercs and BMWs in their middle life.
Our primary car is a leased BMW 330d estate. Its coming up to 4 years old, and the leasing company will want about about £12-14k for it. That's £4k/year depreciation.
Our second car is a Mondeo Ghia Estate, bought at 15 months old, and now run by us for 6 years. Average depreciation just over £1k per year.
And the Mondeo has been more reliable and cost less to service.
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Yes, sorry, a little abrupt there - had to go and feed. The point is that you will always need a "middle" market of large family cars - cheaper to buy than BMWs etc...and yes, maybe they will depreciate more initially (not by 50% in 1 year, though) but hasn't that always been the case? There will always be a market for the new cars and another market to buy the depreciated ones a few years down the line. Another big plus is that most of these cars (and I include all the mainstream makes) are comparatively reliable these days and good to drive. That's not a signal to me that the whole market will collapse in 5 years with everyone either buying BMWs or Fiat Pandas - an absurd suggestion!
Splodgeface
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Value of £21k BMW estate
After 1 year £18699.
After 2 years £14319.
After 3 years £11407.
After 4 years £9186.
After 5 years £7200.
Value of £21k Mondeo estate
After 1 year £13143.
After 2 years £9813.
After 3 years £7443.
After 4 years £5724.
After 5 years £4490.
So if you buy a new car every 2 or 3 years, there's almost nothing to choose between them (as long as you make sure you shop at HJ prices and get £4k off the Mondeo).
If you buy your cars at 2 years old, the Mondeo is a much better financial proposition than the BMW if you believe that each has a similar useful life.
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Would I buy one for £20k? Of course not, but that's mainly because you can get them for £15k.
Zero image but there's definitely a lot to be said for a fully loaded V6 Ghia X compared to a poverty spec BMW 316 Compact - and some satisfaction in knowing that your car is better than everyone thinks it is.
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Value of £21k BMW estate After 1 year £18699. After 2 years £14319. After 3 years £11407. After 4 years £9186. After 5 years £7200. Value of £21k Mondeo estate After 1 year £13143. After 2 years £9813. After 3 years £7443. After 4 years £5724. After 5 years £4490. So if you buy a new car every 2 or 3 years, there's almost nothing to choose between them (as long as you make sure you shop at HJ prices and get £4k off the Mondeo). If you buy your cars at 2 years old, the Mondeo is a much better financial proposition than the BMW if you believe that each has a similar useful life.
Nonsense - look at the bare facts - if I use your figures and assuming stabilty of prices, Mondeo man needs to spend £13,557 to buy his new car after 3 years. The BMW owner needs to only spend £9,593. So Mondeo man has to spend over 40% more than the BMW owner every three years to own a Mondeo rather than a BMW!
Don't complicate the argument by talking about discounts. Some people can get huge discounts off BMWs, Audis, Mercs and Saabs as well you know! It's all about who you know and where you get your cars from. However, the majority of the gormless public walk into a main dealer showroom and pay the full asking list price. That's why Ford, Citroen etc. continue to have such high list prices. Contributors to this forum are not typical of the general public.
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Not absurd - just reality. Why do you think that BMW 3 series outsell the Mondeo - hardly anyone is buying Mondeos in 2004, no-one will be buying it in 2009. The "middle" market as you call it has been invaded by the MPVs.
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Mondeo man does not buy his mondeo new. He buys it depreciated second hand. If he wants it new he buys it at discount. Mondeos are bought and run by leasing companies. (they dont pay full list either they get BIG fat discounts.). Most new BMW 3 series are bought by leasing companies as well.
The mondeo is still selling in healthy numbers.
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I think Hull has a point.
The large saloon market, Mondeo's, Vectra's 406's and their predecessors was/is driven by the company car market. When I had a company car option and wanted a sports model the head of the car unit explained it thus.
A single man could drive a four door saloon but a married man (with children) could not drive a sports car thus all company car choices had to be restricted to this model as if I left the company my four door saloon could be passed on with the minimun of fuss.
With the demise of the company car coming as Gordon Brown taxes us all to death, we are moving to all purchasing our own cars. In this scenario I would buy a sports car and the married man would likely buy an MPV.
Thus the market for large four door saloons is contracting...
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contracting maybe, but disappearing, no!
Splodgeface
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Exactly, the market is changing and as there are many more "junior executive" cars out there, the Mondeo/Vectra slice of the cake will continue to shrink.
I believe that the company car market is driving this change along. Most cars in the £20,000 bracket and above are still company cars, but the introduction of "User/chooser" made all the difference, especially when companies started allowing a larger range of vehicles, including BMW and Lexus. I know of complete fleets of Vauxhalls and Fords turned into BMWs. Even if tax changes mean that people now take the allowances instead, then this will mean even greater choice, including 4x4 and MPVs.
It does not matter to most people that the Mondeo is an extremely good car. I'm sure there are people out there who thought that there would always be a Ford Granada model in the range, but people are now driven by badge identity.
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I'm sure there are people out there who thought that there would always be a Ford Granada model in the range, but people are now driven by badge identity.
If HJ is right, there still is a Granada model in the range. except that it is now called a Mondeo -- and is actually bigger than a Granada.
If manufacturers keep on making rach model bigger than its predecessor, then every decade or so they have to remove the biggest model from the lineup.
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I previously owned a 1998 Mondeo and had the new version as a company rental for about a year.
Though I cannot fault the car on reliability and maintenance costs I would not buy one again.
There is just no feel good factor driving the car.
The depreciation is also extreme.
I have been driving a BMW 3 series for over a year now.
The prestige, driver enjoyment, and low depreciation make it worthwhile.
Avoid main dealers for servicing and the costs are not huge either.
However for £20k you could easily buy into the 3 series range new or used.
I have even found the fuel costs better with the BMW for the same 1.8i engine size.
I think Ford will faze out the Mondeo by 2010.
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Would I buy a 7 year old BMW? Or vcome to think of that, any BMW?
RWD! No use when there is snow or ice. I know most southerners don't know what that is, but rural Staffordshire has it.. and having driven a BMW in snow.. NEVER again.
As far as Mondeos, at my age anything bigger than a Fiesta is too big.. A Mondeo IS big .
4x4? See my comments on snow. May be great in snow but the diver of the BMW in front has blocked the road.. and the fuel consumption! More money than sense.
I think there are obviously a large number of people who complain about taxes etc,.. and then spend money wildly on cars.. £10k depreciation in 5 years! What a waste of money>
As for prestige and BMWs! The only people who equate BMWs and prestige are BMW drivers. The rest of the world - in Manchester at least - equates BMW with drug dealers, low rent company cars and thrashed second hand modded motors... A BMW is getting to be as common as dirt:-)
Prestige is in the eye of the driver.. people must be very very sad to buy a car for prestige...
So having alienated most of this thread, goodnight:-)
madf
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I cant understand why anyone would spend £20,000 on a Mondeo but you know what? I hope they keep doing it.
The depreciation on these frankly excellent cars is so bad, I've just bought a 4 year old Ghia X for under £3000. That car was £20,000 new. I'm quite chuffed about that :)
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I don't think that anyone ever actually PAID £20,000 that was just the list price. Fleets would have paid substantially less.
But I take the point that depreciation on new cars is frightening!
The only time I have had a new car is when someone else was paying.
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Thommo has it right. I paid 14K (minus £1) for my Mondeo estate ghia tdci. Yes its an import but I'm keeping it so don't much care. Depreciation on these cars greatly exaggerated except for those who do end up paying full price.
Splodgeface
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I'd like to see what car publish the depreciation figures using their 'target price' as the base - it might throw up some interesting results.
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Marlot - great idea, anyone know of any such figures from anywhere?
Would be ideal to have % and £ figures for each car.
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Some people appear to be moving the goalposts by talking about discounts, target prices etc. Depreciations are based on list prices - if the car isn't worth the list price then the manufacturer should lower it! Citroen recently complained that their depreciation figures look bad because those compiling the data don't take into account the huge discounts that are given with each car (e.g "No VAT"). Why don't they sell their cars for lower prices and accept that their cars are worth less.
Lots of posts about getting Mondeo's second hand for a bargain - fine for that buyer but the first buyer has already taken the bulk of the depreciation. I have posted before about Audi A3 v Golf depreciation. The person who buys a brand new A3 every 3 years will be spending less on their new car than the Golf buyer. After the initial outlay to buy the first car, which will cost an extra few thousand pounds, the Audi driver is spending less money on keeping a more prestigious car. Similarly, Mondeo man is spending a fortune upgrading his car every three years while the affluent executive spends much less upgrading his 3 series.
There is no good financial argument to buy a new Mondeo. If you can get £4k off it all well and good. You can currently get 4k off a Merc C Class - which do you think is the smarter purchase?
Mondeo will go the way of the Sierra, (not the Granada - which I think was replaced by the Scorpio - whatever happened to that car?) except that there will be no new car to replace it.
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Hull, its a nonsense to suggest I should calculate the depreciation on my car based on its list price (~20K) rather than the price I paid for it (~14K). Its not moving the goalposts; its reality!
Regarding the disappearance of the Mondeo marque: there will always be a market for a mid-priced range of cars; if a Merc C class range continues to exist, so will the demand for less expensive, similar sized Mondeo type cars. The only things I'll concede are that the name Mondeo might well disappear and the shape will probably evolve (as does car fashion), but I can't see the demand for that type of family car disappearing. You have to realise there are too many families out there who can't afford luxury cars but still need space to carry their kids and luggage...
Call it Cortina, Sierra, Mondeo or a Hull4000, its still going to exist in some form or other.
Splodgeface
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The other thing is that you seem to suggest that car buyers are all fashion conscious, want status symbols which go with the current trends.
I reckon most drivers couldn't give a monkeys about the badge on the bonnet. They want functional cars with plenty of space that start each time asked and get them reliably from A to B and back again. Mondeo cars (as indeed do practically all the others in the class) will continue to fulfil that demand.
Splodgeface
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I got sucked into the 'prestige' trap this time around, and I've lost more money than ever before on a car. The depreciation percentage might be lower on paper, but the combination of lots of miles and the higher starting price means that I'd have lost less running a Mondeo (even if bought new) than my BMW.
The BMW is a fantastic drive, and I'd consider getting one again, but it won't be based on pure financial logic. The 'prestige' marques fight giving discounts mainly to keep their places high in the depreciation tables - knowing that those tables are based on the mythical customer who pays list price they try to make sure their customers do pay list.
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Similarly, Mondeo man is spending a fortune upgrading his car every three years while the affluent executive spends much less upgrading his 3 series.
From the figures above...
The £21k BMW is worth £11,407 after 3 yrs, a drop of £9.5k
A '£21k' Mondeo actually costing £16k is worth £7,443 after 3 years, a drop of £8.5k
After 3 years, the Mondeo is well into its low depreciation zone, and it'd be a good idea to keep it an extra couple of years (at least). But the BMW still has quite a way to fall, and it would be a good idea to trade it in before it gets too many miles on the clock.
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Remember that the depreciation figures are historical.
If you are to draw conclusions they should be along the lines of
It would have been better to .....
rather than
It is better to .........
Fashions change as do supply and demand. There are now many more german cars entering the fleet market and many less Mondeo/Vectra. This is bound to effect the future depreciation statistics.
The headline figure are totally distorted by the fact that the likes of Ford heavily discount from list price. For me it is clear that using the dicounted new price figure provides a more meaningful statistic. The availability of pre registered cars which are effectively metal with a previous owner on V5 further clouds the issue.
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Ah, a £21k Mondeo now costs £16k does it! From the right sources you can get a £21K BMW for £15.8K (check out the discounts BMW are giving to families of employees at the moment!) and that will depreciate even less! Whooopppeee!
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Hands up if you are related to an employee of BMW...
Splodgeface
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Almost enough of a discount to marry a BMW employee!
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Well having a 2.0l Mondeo Ghia estate and recently having got rid of a 330D Sport Touring. I know where i would put my money.
The BMW was about 2 times the price i paid for the Mondeo from a supermarket, second owner with 8 miles on the clock. But when you want to put 100k+ miles on it what depreciation do you take into account and what are they really worth?
BM nice to drive but so many extras for so much money. At the end of the day The car is just a "beast of burden" in which to chuck the family, the garden rubbish, the shopping, the sports kit and all the other attendent crap we have to worry about. If nobody wants a mondeo estate then I will gladly buy them at a great discount.
Do I care if it gets trashed by trolleys or other car doors in car parks? Not unduly.
Do i get upset when the kids vomit all over the back seat? Only when the smell gets too strong.
Too much fashion, too many silly people paying sill prices for German Prestige marks.
Don't they make them in S Africa now?
Bikes are for fun cars are for burdens.
BB
Oh and rear wheel drive and snow don't mix trust me I've seen a lot in Munich this winter :)
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Well having a 2.0l Mondeo Ghia estate and recently having got rid of a 330D Sport Touring. I know where i would put my money.
Don't you miss having everyone else think of you as a flashy wotsit? {{big grin}}
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Hands up if you are related to an employee of BMW... Splodgeface
Not surprisingly in Oxford there are many...!
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Interesting report related to this in the latest What Car magazine.
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Even if there is a financial advantage to buying a BMW over a Mondeo, if I had to choose between the two, I would take the bus!
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