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Classic example is the PSU group 1124cc engine. In the Citroen AX of 10 years ago the service interval was every 6k, then upped to 9k and now up to 20k in the Pug 206. I was not aware oil technology had advanced so much in such a short period of time....
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Classic example is the PSU group 1124cc engine. In the Citroen AX of 10 years ago the service interval was every 6k, then upped to 9k and now up to 20k in the Pug 206. I was not aware oil technology had advanced so much in such a short period of time....
Miller,
I assume you are sceptical?
Well perhaps oil technology has improved that much. There could have been modifications to the engine, oil filter etc or that experience has shown that previously the manufacturer was being over-cautious. Probably a combination of all three factors.
There is an argument by some in this thread that the only reason a manufacturer extends service intervals is to appeal to Fleet managers who will have lower running costs; and it doesn't matter if engine life is reduced. Well I wouldn't think that that particular engine is used on many fleet vehicles and in other countries a much lower proportion of cars are company owned.
Some people service their cars more often as the manufacturer feels necessary - and why not if it makes them happy. However the motor industry employs scientists and engineers who spend huge sums on research into this subject and yet there are many laymen with apparently more knowledge - or is it just a failure to move with the times?
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Cardew,
I do understand your point and I do not think I have more technical knowledge than the manufacturers - or than you for that matter.
Any oil change interval, long or short, is a compromise between wear and cost/inconvenience, and I think the compromise is stretched in one direction in the UK because service intervals have become a competitive issue in this market.
Interesting example. Our Civic has a service interval of 12000. If it was in New Zealand, it would have an oil change every 6000 (for "normal" conditions) or 3000 for "severe" conditions. "Severe" includes any one of a number of factors one of which is "driving less than 5 miles per trip" - not uncommon in the UK where 12000 would be deemed adequate. What credible explanation can there be for that other than market forces?
In all honesty - would you really be unconcerned to buy a VW turbo diesel with with 59000 miles that has had only the 2 scheduled oil changes? Does anyone know whether the interval is different on VW/Audi products outside the EU?
M
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Manatee,
Cockle was referring to the Mercedes Sprinter in the original post and I assume that is what you mean rather than a VW turbo diesel?
I have looked on the Internet and cannot see where the 30,000 miles between oil changes figure comes from. However on the Mercedes UK website I can't get the pages to scroll for some reason.
It seems that the Sprinter has a variable servicing interval and the highest claim I have seen is UP TO 30,000Km.(18,750miles) 'What Van' also says up to 30,000Km servicing interval.
However it is pertinent to point out that Mercedes UK have a standard 3 year unlimited mileage warranty on the latest Sprinter - according to 'What Van'. So they must be pretty confident of its durability.
A computer that determines the variable servicing interval has been used by several manufacturers in the past. IIRC BMW had a series of LED lights on the dashboard that went out progressively until the service was due. Again IIRC there was a fuss when some cars had a very short interval between services. I suspect that a Sprinter used for stop start deliveries with a cold engine would require servicing a lot more often than one driven sedately on the motorway. Not that I have ever seen a Sprinter driven slowly.
C
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Cardew, I am happy to be corrected - IIRC I have been told of VWs requiring 20,000 mile changes - therefore at 59,000 miles there would have been 2 scheduled, at 20,000 & 40,000, with one imminently due so I am of course taking the extreme case to make the point.
M
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I have to agree with Manatee on this one. Oil change intervals def. are a compromise between wear and cost, and service intervals in this country are stretched to suit the fleet market.
BTW i certainly wouldnt want a 59,000 mile VW turbo diesel with two oil changes...
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Manatee,
Just looked at the VW UK website and indeed under the 'longlife regime' oil change intervals can be extended by up to 30,000 miles for turbo diesels - special oil and the engine monitors oil condition etc. Details on:
www.vw.co.uk/assets/Longlife_servicing.pdf
I don't have a problem with that, but it would be interesting to see what the service intervals work out to in 'Real World' motoring.
C
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I'm always going to be the other end of the bar from Cardew on this one, Manatee makes good points...as does Miller with a perfect example (Peugeot 206 petrol with 20K oil changes) of extended intervals not being down to design but whim.
Had a 206 recently where the owner had let theirs go "a bit over" before coming for a service. Problem was "a bit over" 20Kmls was actually nearer 25Kmls. This is not the first time I've seen a 206 interval drawn out by the owner encouraged by the makers already lengthy intervals.
The (cartridge type so it was easy to inspect) oil filter had partially collapsed with splits allowing unfiltered oil through. I've seen this before and I hear this type of oil filter failure is not unknown at Peugeot dealers.
Another asociated issue is owners who assume modern vehicles don't really need the "old fashioned" checks doing and you find the oil level a drip at the bottom of the dipstick. On the 206 above I drained out just over 2lit... of the almost 4lit it should contain!
That 2lit of oil, aged by 25Kmls and partially unfiltered, is spelling an early demise for that engine isn't it.
Makers and dealers have to shoulder much of the blame here. All they push is the styling, met paint, air-con, alloys and CD player leaving the owners to think the whole car is efficiently looked after by some magic computer that takes care of all the dirty bits.
In my opinion 5l of semi-syn and a filter every 6Kmls/6mths is the cheapest way of keping an engine on track long term.
And it isn't just the oil is it. 20K is too long to go without anyone looking over a car to see the safety related components are all OK, a great deal can happen in 20K that could be either dangerous or potentially damaging.
Coolant leaks, oil leaks, bulges/splits in tyres, ruined tyres due to tracking errors, blown bulbs, exhausts failing such that they may drop on the road, rear brake cylinders starting to leak, front pads almost down to the metal, broken springs, leaking dampers, those wonderful long life spark plugs slowly bonding themselves to the head...... All these things and more can be caught if seen in time.
Interestingly if you look in the detail of virtually any service book you will see a range of conditions that will trigger a major reduction (usually half) in the service interval mileage. I've just looked on the database of the cars I look after and see 60% of them fall into the reduced mileage interval type use. A further 20% are driven hard on constantly low oil levels, often not checked betwen services, so would also benefit from reduced mileage intervals.
OK so my folks may not fit the "average" profile but what may be better would be if the makers advised a 6mth/6K oil change interval (with a main service at 12mths/12K) by default and then advised vehicles being run on a commercial or business basis could have their intervals extended.
And you say it isn't all marketing Cardew. Why then hasn't one of the owners I deal with ever had this "town use/short run" extra servicing requirement mentioned at the time of purchasing the car new? It's because at the point of sale no servicing being needed until the car has reached 20K seems very attractive to to the buyer and a strong selling point.
Anyway must get out and do some work, my TD needs an oil change as its been 5K since the last one. ;-)
M.M
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M.M,
I agree we are looking at this situation from different ends of the telescope. I do take your point that with extended service intervals there must be 'common sense' checks carried out.
The last thing I want to do is stand up for Peugeot but let us take your "perfect example" of the 206 with its 20k Services. Below is an extract from the Peugeot website, which I have little doubt is in the handbook:
"Peugeot recommend an intermediate visit between two services, which consists of a levels check and top-up (oil up to 1 litre, coolant and screen wash). This is carried out free of charge, provided that the maintenance of your vehicle has been carried out within the Peugeot network. It is important the engine oil level be checked between services as a lack of oil can lead to serious engine damage. At the same time, your Peugeot dealer will offer you a Peugeot Safety Check, for a nominal fee. This provides a full report on the condition of key safety items such as tyres, brake pads and lighting.
Your example is for someone who did not follow the advice above, additionally exceeded the service interval by 5,000miles and had a filter with a manufacturing defect.
I agree with you that many dealers do not explain servicing requirements fully and many owners simply do not read the handbook which details checks to be carried out by the owner. I agree also that the more often the car is inspected by a garage OR owner the more likely faults will be noted.
My argument is that following the manufacturer's service schedule is sufficient to keep the car in good order and that with modern engines and oils it is not necessary to change engine oils as we did in days of yore. However following the Servicing Schedule means just that, with all the checks the manufacturer lays down. In my view it is not a counter-argument to say people won't comply with the schedule so we should change the engine oil twice or three times as frequently as recommended.
C
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Cardew,
Your extract from the Peugeot website confirms why it seems a perfect example(it is word for word what is in the car's handbook).
They are concerned enough about these service intervals being too long to offer a basic levels etc check free of charge at 10K, and encourage you to have an interim safety check at the same time..for a nominal fee. Elsewhere in their information they advise halving the service/oil change intervals in cases of what we might call short run useage.
So for many users of 206s (town/shopping/school run cars) it would be more upfront to say the servicing was in fact more frequent than the magic 20K figure which is the one the car will be sold on in the showroom.
I quite agree the potential damage to the car I mentioned was finally the result of the user going way over the 20K interval, but it wouldn't have mattered nearly so much if they went 5K over a 6K interval.
Oh and I don't think the filters are faulty as such...I think they collapse due to pressure when clogged at these higher mileages, and then split at the weakest point. Maybe a design fault though if they plan them to be left in so long.
I am realistic, owners rarely read through the whole of a vehicle handbook and service book after purchase. Even if they do these extra servicing details are usually hard to find.
I will concede it is possible that engines may well last to their design age/mileage following these extended schedules....
But only if they are constantly used on long runs, they are never caned, the oil is always to the max mark, the correct quality oil is always used at services and for topping up, and that the extended intervals are never stretched. Very much like bench test conditions really.
Real life use and human nature gets in the way of all that though!
M.M
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M.M.
Perhaps we are not that far apart in our views after all.
Like you I would also emphasise the type of usage as being important to allow extended mileages before servicing. This is the reason why Mercedes(which is where this thread started) and VW have a system to monitor the condition of the oil and the quoted service is always "up to" X or Y miles.
C
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>>Perhaps we are not that far apart in our views after all.
Very likely. I think possibly it matters not so much which system you adhere to but that you understand "why" you follow a particular one, its advantages and the possible pitfalls.
Good Friday workout though...thanks. I'm tuned up enough to get an early start on tomorrow's Xantia clutch change!
M.M
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My Audi is currently on 18,500 and showing 8,100 to first service - so not far off the 30,000 miles. I do about 12,000 miles per annum. I have read of an Audi needing service after 7,000 miles using the variable system, but this was someone doing a small amount of miles per year - less than 5,000 IIRC.VAG cars have to be serviced every two years regardless of the indicator - my two years and the service indicator will probably just about coincide.
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Has anybody considered that maybe the enormous advances in metallurgy could be a factor as opposed to 'has oil really improved that much'.....????
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The 1124cc PSA engine may be an interesting example of manufacturers learning and adjusting maintenance schedules. When it appeared in the 205 in 1983 (it may have a longer history) it had a chain-cam, being converted to belt-cam in 1988. There was no recommendation about belt life, though as failures began to show, the 50K-change message spread without actually appearing in the schedule. (My daughter had one fail just after a dealer service at 51K - they didn't suggest a change). Now PSA belts typically say 72K, though Haynes still prefer to reduce this for peace of mind.
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