I notice how many of the contributors have owned or still own motorcycles. I am getting on but I still have 3 myself.
It has been said, and I would agree, that drivers who began their motoring lives on bikes have far better skills for appreciating road surface quality, anticipating events, understanding weather conditions as they relate to speed and distance, and their observation skills are generally superior to those who leap into a repmobile or the school run after 8 hours with BSM.
Motorcycle riders being vastly more vulnerable, their need for sharper awareness is blindingly obvious, but I have always felt I am a better driver as a result of what I learn on my bike(s), and after each session in the saddle feel I do a better job next time I get behind the wheel.
So far so good, and of course I would add that everyone on a bike should take a rider training course.
Now we come to the new brigade -- the scooterists. Many of the recent twist n go brigade are car drivers quite reasonably hoping to beat jams, save fuel and time etc. However I frequently notice they have little or no apreciation of the things I consider when riding and many are downright dangerous. Modern 2 wheel tires etc are more forgiving than they used to be but I still see some real idiots on scooters doing things I would never consider on my bike, and I've been riding for 45 years. It seems to me there's a gap in the system somewhere that allows card rivers to hurl their leg over (should I say 'step-thru?) a scooter and weave madly through the traffic? I would hate to be a trucker with these things whizzing around me.
What do others think?
Maybe everyone should be compelled to ride a m/c as part of their driver training? and in particular scooter riders new to the game and coming from cars should get more training.
|
I may be being utterly brutal here, but having been a car driver before I rode a bike, I think I can comment.
I think that what will happen to these people will be pure Darwinian selection. The ones who make the adjustment will survive and end up as good riders. The ones who don't realise that (for example) leaves on the road are a killer will end up in the gutter. Hopefully, their egos alone will suffer damage rather than their bodies, but either way, they are more likely to give up and go back to the safety and security of a car.
I watched the same thing happening when I was a courier. People would start as couriers riding like nutters for the cash, then suffer near misses, etc, (as I did) until they calmed down.
I'm a believer that the solution to most of our road problems rests with better driver training, as it encourages road users to analyse their driving BEFORE the accident. I'm a bit out of touch with the rules on bike licences, so if it is still true that a car driver can get straight onto a scooter, it's a bit of law that needs revision.
|
|
|
I think I agee here, most bikers do indeed perceive they are better road users than car drivers because of the "we know it hurts when we fall off" argument.
The reality is nearer to Vin's comments for car and bike users. Good and bad in both camps. Training is the key.
David
|
|
|
|
Agree to all this! Of course all motorists should spend a week or so on the road on a big bike! You learn about observation through necesity!
|
After 20 years of car driving I joined the ranks of scooterists in London 2 years ago and it has changed the way I drive as well as ride. I had never ridden a bike or scooter before in my life but after a days "training" on the CBT I was allowed out into London traffic on a 125 Scooter more than fast enough to kill myself and other people. I am probably one of the more "sedate" riders in London and could probably knock 5 - 10 mins off my 1 hour journey to work if I took more risks, but I prefer getting there in one piece regularly. I did learn a lot on the CBT but basically all you have to do is spend one hour on the road with an instructor without falling off, although one guy did hit a car and was still allowed the certificate. Once you have the CBT all you need to do is keep re taking it every 3 years (it may have changed since I took mine), you never need to take a proper test with an examiner. I have since taken my full test which has helped my road sense although most of what I was taught was covered in the CBT but I had to convince the examiner I could do it and that helps. It frightens me when I see what some of the kids get up to in Traffic on their scooters (why do they put thier feet on the pillion footpegs?) and in a recent article in Ride magazine the Editor suggested that most accidents could be avoided by the rider even if it wasn't their fault. This has stirred up some controversy but nearly every near-miss I have had (there haven't been too many!) has either been my fault or could have been avoided by better observation and planning. Having said all that I would heartily recommend anyone who is sick of the traffic (or Public Transport) tries a scooter (or bike), as long as you get the right gear you will stay dry and safe
Robin
|
|
|
|
I am convinced about this. Riding a two wheeler makes you far more aware of the need for observation and teaches much more about road surfaces, the effects of rain, frost etc. I'm convinced I'm much more cautious in poor weather because of early years on two wheels.
I can only imagine that the target market for scooters are the 'learned in a car' types, hence the lack of appreciation for safety. Unfortunately therefore the 'selection principle' may apply. I'm a bit out of touch as regards motor cycle licencing having always had the motorbike bit on mine, but I believe that a car licence does allow a driver to drive one of the smaller engined scooters (50cc ?) without a further test. Bigger engined bikes do require motorcycle training and testing.
Regards
john
|
|
|
|
If I ever end up as Minister for Transport (not very likely I know) I will lower the age for riding a moped to 14 and raise the age for driving a car to 18. That way, most people will already have had four years experience of extremely defensive riding before they ever get behind the wheel of a car. At present you can get a moped licence at 16, but a car licence only a year later, so there isn't much point in getting a moped unless you live on an isolated farm in the middle of the Fens. (Which probably explains why the only places you see teenagers on Yamaha DT50s these days are towns like Chatteris and Spalding.)
|
Richard,
You travel the class Fenland routes then?
David
|
|
|
|
David
I grew up in Lincolnshire. Marvellous place to learn to drive - all those totally empty roads. Typical fen road - dead straight for 2 miles, then a 90 degree corner with hardly any signposts and a deep ditch just beyond. Combine these with a Triumph Herald on crossply tyres and you either learn some car control skills at an early age, or you fall off the road and drown....
|
|
|
A very, very, very long time ago I was driven in a car by a 17 year old lad who'd passed his bike test at 16 and had run a BSA 250 single (I think it was called a Gold Star). The car he was driving was a 3 speed 1172cc 100E Ford, yet if felt like a sports car being driven by a racing driver. He got the revs precisely right for every single gearchange. Something I always remembered, so I thing Growlette is right yet again.
HJ
|
|
|
Lot of sense talked in the above thread, though it niggles slightly once again to see the bikers are better because it hurts attitude. OK so it seems a good idea to get everyone on a bike to get another appreciation of the situation. It also would not hurt to see the viewpoint of others, so maybe we should also get the opportunity to drive PCV?s against a timetable and HGV?s with a tight multi drop schedule having had a 3am start. Tend to agree with DW on the good and bad in all camps view. Never had a bike licence and no intention of ever getting one so accept that my view may not be as objective as I would like to think it is.
Are we not forgetting there is one other situation where kids can get road sense and defensive skills at a very early age, namely riding a push bike. So what examples do we adults show them, riding on the pavements, going through red lights, no lights, wrong way up one ways, swapping from road to pedestrian mode at the drop of a cycle helmet?.. what helmet?
When questioned why; the answer is usually that the roads are too dangerous. Then when we are behind the wheel ourselves, if we do see someone on a bike how, as drivers, do we treat them? Are we patient? Do we wait until there is space to overtake leaving plenty of room for the odd wobble? I think you don?t need me to give you the answer on that one.
Is it any wonder then that kids also ride around with a bad attitude to others sharing the space, be it road or pavement, ignoring rules & regs, and ride on the limit. For most of them the nearest they have been to a driving situation is on the Playstation, hitting a tree does not hurt on Colin McRae Rally or whatever, so when they are let loose behind a real engine carnage ensues.
Instead of more regulation better training, cradle to grave, pedestrians, cyclists, bikers, drivers, PCV, HGV? That gets my vote.
|
Stuart,
Ah but you perhaps didn't attach enough importance to the word perceive in my comment.
David
|
Hello David,
Yes I did notice it and got the message, am sure you appreciate I was really aiming at the rest of the thread where the bikers best attitude was pretty much to the fore.
We all think that *we* are not the weakest link, and I just feel that, just as in so many other examples, it is a collective responsiblity thing.
Mind you in my examples of potential driver training situations for seeing what the others have to put up with, after I clicked post realised I had forgotten the tractor driver with load of hay situation.
Best regards,
Stuart
|
|
|
|
I'm getting a mite confused here, Growlette. Do they *have* BSM in the Philippines?
Enlighten us, please.
(PS, at the risk of getting cross-threaded, you remarked that some of the people in the forum lead boring lives. I couldn't follow your train of thought there. Was that just an outburst of exasperation on your part?)
|
Sorry -- we live in the Philippines most of the time but visit UK where we keep the Mustang and 1 Harley. Visits are less than 60 days annually so we don't fall foul of the taxman. THe old guy is (or used to be once, a Brit. I'm from here)Retirement, etc. Over here himself drives the F150 V-8 and I've got a decrepit Mazda Astina. We share the Virago and the Honda trailie.
BSM in the RP? No, we have the A-1 School. THis institution teaches students to drive in the outside lane at 20 kph, which is about all you can manage in this traffic anyway. after 10 lessons you get a bit of paper and you get the license. This is given regardless of whether you're any good or not, merely that you clutch a bit of paper saying you pitched up for 10 lessons. For a "fee" even this could be waived....
THis of course has nothing to do with the thread but you did ask...
Did I say boring? Oh, yes I remember. Something to do with all those little LED things they put in modern cars to provide excitement because the cars are so boring. So you can say down the pub: "Wow! Guess what! I averaged 0.8 mpg more this week, chaps!" "Nah, get away, did you really? Ooh do tell us how..."
In my day it was "Hiya fellers! (brushes back apparently wind-blown hair), "got the old TR up to 90 on the Fontwell stretch just now (actually it was 73, but so what)".
Sorry Martyn.
|
Growlette wrote:
>
> Sorry Martyn.
Hey, I was just pulling your leg. Put it down to envy!
But I'm with you on what you say about boredom and wind-blown hair. I watched an old b/w Hitchcock film on telly last week, and was delighted to see the murderer's open-top car speedo inching up past 40... 50... (screams from victim)... 55mph!
|
|
|
|
>>Growlette-The Growler's Girl wrote:
I agree with all that you said about bikers being better car drivers, but I think it wears off over time.
I used to ride bikes all the time. And I am sure it made me a better car driver. However, over time I forgot most of the habits of observation and judgement. This really came home a little while ago when I started riding a bike again. Ok, I learned quickly, since I was remembering, rather than learning, but it still took time to get the skills back on a bike.
Then when I got back in the car again I realised that many of my car driving habits which I'd lost when I stopped riding bikes 15 years ago had suddenly come back.
Trouble is, any form of training whether it comes from bike experience or from formal training needs to be refreshed as time goes on.
M.
|
|
|
But Growlette,
Sorry to plagiarise Bill Bryson but its what us blokes do best. You know the type of conversation, get any group of blokes discussing travelling from point A to point B and like a flash we will be into the minutiae of "Oh no if you use the B4123 for 0.5 mile and take the left fork by the Ratcatchers Fingernails you can save at least 2.3 minutes and you miss the traffic queue by the Little Chef at Great Snoring on the Widdle"
Which prompts the follow up "Ah but you're forgetting.............." yawn.
|
|
|
Yep got to agree here.
Your comments on more training are also spot on. I had the pleasure (Mentioned many threads ago) to do the Honda MAC, Motorcycle Appreciation course, last year with Les Packham who writes a column in Ride magazine I think. Two of the wettest most glorious days of motorcycling I have ever had. The radio comms so you get immediate feedback is brilliant. Knowing you have done wrong and waiting for the comments straight back is great. The debriefings at tea breaks between Les myself and the other guy on the course have helped my riding and driving. It has also shown up the major limitations in even attempting to make any reasonable progress in a car on todays crowded roads in comparison to a bike.
Not totally sure I would want everyone to have to do time on a bike but I liked the comments from Richard Hall on 14 and 18. That does make sense.
Long time since I was last in the Philippines, happy days in Manila and many small places in the islands, Bugo sticks in my mind for some reason!
Bill
|
|
Bill - "Bugo" or do you mean "Burgos"?
|
|
|
|
MAC course details and phone number at the end of the road test of the Honda Civic Type R on this website.
HJ
|
|
|
Richard
Once upon a time practically everybody started off on bikes or scooters at 16 and only progressed to cars two or three years later.
Today practically everybody starts in cars and a few progress to bikes or scooters.
We seem to have a lot of fatal bike accidents in Essex, and the majority seem to be middle-aged, not teenagers. However the majority of car deaths seem to be youngsters.
It would seem that starting in cars maybe leads to poor road sense which gets you into trouble either sooner in a car or later when you think you know it all and graduate to a bike.
That's one theory. It would be interesting to go through the statistics properly.
|
|
|
|
I agree entirely. As often stated training is the key. Do you think Mo ( BBC, Driving School. Lada driver ( Are they really cool ? ) would have ever passed her test. I think not.
|
|
|
