Anarchy in the UK - b3gon
Given that:
An estimated one million cars are on the road without tax, insurance, mot etc.
Over one million people are being criminalised for speeding,
Thousands are driving under the influence of drink, or drugs,
Thousands of drivers need their eyes testing,
Thousands are driving whilst on the phone, reading maps, snacking etc,
Cars are being driven with no lights, one light, fog lights, blue lights, undercar lights,and xmas lights,
Common sense and courtesy are rarely evident,
Lane discipline is virtually non-existant and the motorways are jam-packed and have ruts.

Would it be fair to say that it is too late to turn the clock back, and stem the rising tide of motoring anarchy?

Is there a solution or does anarchy rule ok?
Anarchy in the UK - SR
Why does the phrase "criminalised for" only apply to speeding? Wouldn't "guilty of" apply equally to them all?
Anarchy in the UK - No Do$h
More traffic officers (not diverted from other areas, just more of them) and less automated "justice" may just stem the tide. As it is we are on the edge of a precipice. When regular people condone and cheer the destruction of speed detection equipment I think we can safely say the law is treated with disdain.
Anarchy in the UK - SR
Plenty of "regular people" are obviously quite happy to drive without working lights, insurance, licence, etc....
Anarchy in the UK - El Hacko
interesting that Iron Gordon B (clearly under pressure from the PM) yesterday found more money to reassure council taxpayers that the big, inevitable rises in next year's bills will not be Govt's fault. Another sign that a tax revolt (as with petrol price rises) by people is taken notice off in Whitehall. But there's no way that speeding drivers (law breakers) will have any effect on official thinking re speed cameras. Sure, it's frustrating, but slow down and keep to the limits. It DOES save lives.
Anarchy in the UK - nick
'slow down and keep to the limits. It DOES save lives'

Watch out, El Hacko, your head will get bitten off for stating such heresy!

But you are right.
Anarchy in the UK - Mattster
You are right - slowing down saves lives. Stopping altogether would save even more. Where do you draw the line?

What if (god forbid that this could possibly happen) the speed limits are simply set too low in some places? 30 years out of date perhaps?
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
Anarchy in the UK - El Hacko
simple: you draw the line at whatever the decreed speed limit is - you might disagree, but what's so hard about slowing down? If you feel you cannot, then by all means stop driving - it's cheaper than paying fines and risking licence...and chances are fewer people will be hurt.
Am I being provocative enough?
Anarchy in the UK - Sooty Tailpipes
Its not just motoring it's every part of socirty is affected by degeneracy and wrong doing, from the litter strewn, streets covered in filth and graffiti, to the huge benefits and collossal asylum frauds, the list goes on.... and on.... Failure is the only thing rewarded these days.
Anarchy in the UK - jeds
There certainly will be a backlash against dubious speed camera tactics. Local Police forces are embarrassed by the lack of evidence and campaigners cannot keep blinkers on for ever. My worry is the damage being done to driving culture and standards in the meantime. The disrepute for the law caused by speed cameras doesn't just stay with speed cameras it spreads into other areas of law as well and attracts thousands of ordinary people to the dark side.
Anarchy in the UK - MrWibble
"... attracts thousands of ordinary people to the dark side"

The solution should be simple then ... use the Force ...
Anarchy in the UK - THe Growler
I was talking on the phone to UK last night to my solicitor when this came up as an aside I mentioned the BR as being one of the ways I keep in touch with developments in the land of my birth) and he commented that the number of "picayune" (his word) prosecutions and the way the motoring law in particular is being administered is causing massive lost of respect for authority in other areas. This in his view is already beginning to have knock-on adverse effects on British society as a whole. He makes the point that ruthless enforcement of petty legislation on people who have no desire or intention to break any law but find it almost impossible not to do so, while "real" crime is on the rise, is alienating the public from both the police and government. Yet "they" seem to be deaf, dumb and blind to it (his words), pursuing their own disconnected agendas with politically correct objectives rather than real world ones.

His hypothesis not mine, and he voted "New" Labour and is not yet 30, so no old right wing blowhard like me.

Over here of course anarchy is the natural state of politics and the roads, so we're used to it!
Anarchy in the UK - James_Jameson
To those that think speed cameras save lives, I suggest that they study the facts, rather than perhaps rely on faith / fundamentalism.

Speed does not kill, but bad driving does.

There were far more deaths on the road in this country almost 100 years ago, when cars were barely capable of more than 40mph.

There were less deaths on the road in this country before speed cameras were installed.

Many speed limits are being reduced to a much too low a figure and cameras placed strategically in order to catch drivers / create revenue.

You may say "the law is the law so obey it", but the law is falling into disrepute. Do you eat mince pies on Christmas day? If so, you break the law (Cromwell's law). Yes, some laws are stupid and in a great many instances, speed limits are considered stupid by a great many people.
Anarchy in the UK - SR
The difference is tha there's a vaid erason in our modern world why seed limits should exist ans should be enforced. Bringing up mince pies (sorry!) does nothing to reinforce your argument, and neither does the earlier point about not moving at all being even safer.

No-one is saying "speed kills" any more - this phrase is used more often by the pro-speeding lobby, but it's years since I saw it used by government, police, etc. The point is to strike a balance between allowing people to make reasonable progress and maintaining safety for all road users. It's when people arbitrarily decide that they know better and can exceed that set limit that the authorities start to react by reducing limits, instead of enforcing the existing ones. Of those two options, I'd far rather see enforcement, yet those who complain about enforcement also complain about the limits being too low......

Bad driving kills, but speeding is part of bad driving. I agree that many speed limits are set too low, but if so many people did not exceed the limits there would be no need for any cameras. If people know cameras exist and are visble, yet they're still stupid enough to get caught, isn't it just possible that they're some of the bad drivers we're on about?
Anarchy in the UK - SR
Claiming a world record for typing errors in one post.....it's too early for me!
Anarchy in the UK - Jehovah
James, your assertion that speed doesn't kill isn't really true is it? Bad driving at high speed kills people better than bad driving at low speed does, so the factor "speed" cannot be ignored (and is indeed easier to record automatically than "bad driving"). Is competent driving improved in an emergency situation if you're at higher speed?
I live on a 30mph road, and I'd love a speed camera on every lampost if it meant that the old dears + kids could cross the road to the river without risking serious underwear damage at least - I'd take your point on fast motorways/dual carriagways, where the difference between 70 + 90 perhaps isn't much of a factor.
When I hear people giving a blanket drubbing to speed cameras per se I worry that perhaps they need to talk a stroll more often, and indeed anarchy may be just around the corner (to stay on thread).

ps. I live in (I think) the only county in UK that doesn't have fixed speed cameras (chief constable thinks they "put off otherwise law abiding folk who might not help plod in future").
Anarchy in the UK - No Do$h
Amazing. Within three posts this has turned into a speed camera thread.

Will be snipping some bits off and putting them in the appropriate thread later today.


No Dosh
mailto:Alan_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
Anarchy in the UK - SR
Apologies for my help in that, No Dosh.

I think the original point is valid - there is not enough enforcement of laws that are there to protect everyone. The more new and inexperienced drivers are influenced by what they see going on around them, and the less they're influenced by what they learned before they took the test, the more driving standards are going to deteriorate.

The police are under strength, and are unwilling/unable to enforce many of the laws we would like to see acted on more often. If they did, they would probably be accused by those who were caught of concentrating on trivial things while there are murderers and rapists out there. Even if they did try to take action, the penalties leveied against the guilty by the justice system are so trivial that it's hardly worth the effort. As a result, a police patrol can be sitting next to a car with three kids in the back who are clearly not wearing setabelts and they do nothing about it. Who's going to suffer most if the worst happens - not the police, not the driver of the other car.....

I have raised precisely these issues with my local force/service, and been told (effectively) that they have limited resources and have to target them where they know there are problems. This does mean that many offences will go unheeded. I have witnessed how thinly-spread the resources of the traffic department are, especially when they're being used as a free recovery response service by drivers who break down on the motorway.

If there's no move to reassess driving skills periodically, and the authorities shy away from enforcing the law, I don't see how things can improve.

Maybe drivers could take responsibility for their own actions instead of waiting for someone else to do something.
Anarchy in the UK - Jehovah
Yes No Dosh - it's uncanny how it happens!

But perhaps the question posed (does anarchy rule in the UK) is linked v closely to things like speed cameras - you could define anarchy as "every man for himself and b****r the rest of you", and perhaps this is the attitude we all take at some times / some of us take all the time. Without attempts to curb these less enchanting aspects of the human condition by our elected representatives, would anarchy rule? Would the strong and the fast trample all over the weak and the slow?
It would be fascinating to see what would happen of we had a day off from all controls, speed cameras, patrol cars - I wonder whether we'd all muddle along as a cooperative cohesive group, giving all road users/pedestrians etc. a fair crack of the whip. (anyone read "Lord of the Flies"?)
Anarchy in the UK - Thommo
Yes Mr. Dosh it had become a scamera debate.

As to the vandalising (is that a word?) of scameras I have mixed feelings.

On the one hand I am happy that the normally supine British are fighting back.

On the other hand I am depressed that there is no legitimate route for taking action. Labour are resolutely anti-car, except of course when it comes to the commissars Zil limosines, how long before we have politburo only lanes in central London I wonder? The Liberals are even more anti-car than Labour and the Conservatives are busy pretending to be Labour because they think it will get them elected. Suppose I'll have to found the car party...
Anarchy in the UK - Andrew-T
So you are an anarchist, Thommo? That all sounds like a good approximation to me.

I think people are either co-operators (willing members of society) or the opposite, with I suppose shades of intensity in between. No prizes for guessing which way things are moving, according to the posts on this thread?
Anarchy in the UK - Thommo
We are getting in to broader politics and the Mods will be along in a moment, so I'll make this quick.

I think the British have mostly all historically been
co-operators but there must be a limit to what can be put up with and I think most of us are reaching that limit.

As Growler says above we have ruthless enforcement of minor transgresssions whilst the drug dealers fight turf wars with AK47's largely undisturbed and certainly unprosecuted.

I am not at the stage where I would 'necklace' a scamera but if I saw other people doing it I would cheer them on, and how long it will be before I'm digging the old tyres out of the garage and filling a can with low lead I can not say...
Anarchy in the UK - wemyss
What puzzles my mind more than any other regarding law enforcement and is that when I was a young man in the 1950s Policing was very evident.
In my small town which consisted of two main streets and a population of 15K there were always two Bobbies patrolling on foot night and day.
Lads were lads and if any unruly shouting or other unsociable behaviour took place in the Street on a Saturday night they would only have to beckon the offenders and they would duly go up to them to be rebuked and cautioned. A Policeman was someone to be obeyed and respected.
This was accepted as normal and good behaviour followed. Crime and burglary were virtually non existent and I imagine the above was similar to any small town.
Fifty years hence and I am told that we have many more thousand Police Officers but my problem is where are they all??. Living now in a similar small town the only sighting is an occasional Police car passing by but even this is a rarity. So exactly where are these extra thousands.
Crime is rife and burglaries commonplace. Anti-social behaviour is common place and any Sunday morning one can see the result in our town with wheely bins dragged out and tipped over. Signs being pulled down and in the main Street shop windows broken. Cars stolen and damaged..
New initiatives by the Police always being proclaimed in the local paper but they always centre around liberal progressive blame society its our own fault ideas. I fear that until we accept that zero tolerance and discipline are our only saviour the situation will remain.
But if the authorities applied the same zeal, enthusiasm, enterprise, technology applied to motoring offences perhaps it would be safe to walk our streets at night again.
Anarchy in the UK - helicopter
Hear Hear to that, I have not seen a policeman on foot in years, sorry I tell a lie - I saw one in the local KFC stocking up with a party box before returning to his mate in the car for a evening picnic down a quiet back lane no doubt.

As for policemen in helicopters!!

Spend the money getting to know your local kids by going out on the beat. If they know retribution may be just around the corner then they will be better behaved. I know a clip around the ear was a bit brutal but it worked.

Anarchy in the UK - Andrew-T
alvin - at the time you remember fondly, I suspect most 'crime' was perpetrated on foot, or perhaps bike. Bobbies could counter it in a similar way. Nowadays they wouldn't stand much chance, would they? Though I do see occasional initiatives like roller blades in shopping centres.

Perhaps the biggest change is that 50 years ago, communities were closer, and usually one or more of the older generation would have known who was responsible, and the culprits would not have been able to get away with it. Now they just get away .. and disappear.
Anarchy in the UK - Mark (RLBS)
I'm here.

This thread is;

1) a speed camera thread
2) getting political
3) forgetting motoring
4) locked.

 

Value my car