danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Dereksn51
Can anyone tell me (with authority)the possible dangers of "live" mobile phones used in the vicinity of petrol pumps?Is there really a danger of explosion or is it a nonsense?
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Pugugly {P}
I have no authority, but was filling up in a Garage on the A55 in North Wales in the summer and there was giant mobile mast within a few ( I mean less than 5) meters of the perimeter fence. Perhaps one of the NW backroomers would confirm (in case it was a mirage) it was Anglesey bound after the tunnel with the speed cameras and contraflow.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - PR {P}
I work on an oil stabilisation plant. We are not allowed mobiles or any other battery operated devices on site. Any devices must be "intrinsically safe", ie batteries must be sealed off from the air. This is to eliminate the risk of sparks incase of a gas cloud.
The ban on mobiles in filling stations is the same, and is nothing to do with "radio waves" or anything else.
I personally think it is going a bit far in filling stations, especially when you consider the car you've just pulled up in has red hot parts in the engine bay, possibly a radio on, lights, electrical circuits etc...
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - RoadDevil
This is a nonsense, who turns their mobile off at a filling station? When did you last hear of a filling station exploding for no obvious reason? I think there is a theoretical risk of a spark caused by a radio transmitting aerial, probably more risk from nylon trousers, although hopefully the style police will get you first!

This is all the more ridiculous due to the fact that apparently some stations have a small mobile cell installed in the tall illuminated brand/price sign.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Pugugly {P}
Given that view, I would imagine that at some stage there has been a Health and Safety Risk Assesment and that the theoretical risk is included by a well meaning person and that the "control" measure was to put aup a sign saying "turn it off"
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Leon on Derv
Guess it is down to enforcing health and safety. There are intrinsically safe mobiles that you can buy to use if you need to use them in a hazzardous environment, eg an ordinance factory or similar.

I was checking my tyre pressures at sainsburys the other week when the power to the air line was cut off. Aparently they shut off the power to the pumps and ground equiment when the tankers are refilling the underground tanks. Guess for the same reasons.

Leon
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - far0n
If you saw a program on Channel 5 the other week then you would have seen them putting this theory to the test. Basically they put 6 mobile phones in a caravan that had been drenched in petrol inside and out. They had the phones set to maximum volume and vibrate alert on too. They rang all six at the same time and........... nothing.

It's total bull.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - carl_a
There is a really big american investigation into fires at fuel stations, I can't remember the address of the site but they have loads of reports from "victims". Don't think they had any regarding mobile phones however.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Mark (RLBS)
REad what PR said, its not the radio waves, or the ringing, or anything else.

It is an over-reaction to the potential for you to drop it, the battery to cause a spark and the place to explode.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Jazzmag
Dropping a mobile phone, such that it fractures the case and allows the battery to produce a spark in some manner, will surely occur irrespective of whether the mobile is actually on or off?!
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - ianhad
I was in a garage filling up when a security guy, using a Hand held radio, told someone off for using his phone. The hand held puts out about 250mW, a mobile phone about 25mW. I told the security guy that he should not be using his radio and was told that he wasn't using it, just receiving a call. Hand held radios transmit an "I here" signal every few seconds!
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - RichardW
In the petrochemical industry we undertake something called 'Hazardous Area Classification'. This is bascially a review of potential sources of leaks of flammable chemicals that could lead to the formation of a 'flammable atmosphere' - basically a mixture of the flammable and air at the correct concentration (3-10% by volume for most chemicals) such that it could burn / explode. It will come as no suprise that the area around petrol pumps are 'classified' - and there is a specific section in the relevant code dealing with this. 'Classified' areas restrict the type of electrical equipment they can contain in order to minimise the risk of ignition - the pumps, lights etc at a petrol station are suitable for this area. Mobile phones are not, and this is the reason they should be turned off.

The area is quite small when you arrive at the station, but when you start filling, a larger area is created around the filling point on the car, spilling down towards the ground. If you have a phone in your pocket it will be right in this area, and there is a very real risk that a spark from it could ignite the vapour cloud you have just produced filling your car.

So, turn them off, or at the very least leave them in the car! You do not want to be the exception that proves the rule that mobiles cannot ignite a vapour cloud.




RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Andrew-T
..phone in pocket .. I wonder how often smokers (notably in France and Spain for example) fill their cars while holding a burning fag near their bum-pocket?

Re the mobiles - is it better for the public to be warned about the tiny risk, than for everyone except the initiated to be totally unaware?
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
One of the things that I have been told in the past is that mobiles screw with the fuel pump, possibly causing it do deliver more or less than is actually indicated. As someone with a degree in electronic engineering I sadly can't say whether or not that is feasible.

As for the danger of sparks within a mobile phone, well they are all solid state chips on integrated circuits. Can't see where there is any risk of a spark. Perhaps someone who actually took notice in their lectures could comment.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Jazzmag
Hi pdc,

I too for my sins have a BEng in Electrical and Electronic Eng.!

I remember that early CB radios had the ability to 'confuse' petrol pumps. I seem to recal that it required the use of an AM type rig (not the legal FM type) with a transmit power of at least 4W. If the rig transmitted at full power during fuel dispense, the flow meter could (occasionally) give a lower than true flow rate, i.e. more fuel dispense than registered.

I can't see how how a humble mobile phone would be able to do the same - transmit power is proportional to signal strength, i.e. the more signal strength 'bars' showing on youre phone, the less tx power (to prolong battery life). Even with a single bar showing tx power, it's only a couple of Watts max.

As for sparks from a phone - I'm with you on that! All mobile phones are specifically designed with very low power CMOS technology such that battery life is extended as much as possible. The onle potential for spark generation I can see are:

1. The battery is somehow caused to short cct, due to severe mechanical trauma.

2. The phones with trendy white and blue leds have boost convertors on board to achive the required forward volt drop to drive them. This involves 'switch mode' techniques. I have only witnessed on one occasion a switch mode spark, when the feedback loop was broken. But this was on a high power beast - certainly not the tiddly mobile phone stuff.

danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
Hi pdc,
I too for my sins have a BEng in Electrical and
Electronic Eng.!


EMAN? Salford? Siemens?
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - b3gon
Further reading:

www.urbanlegends.com/ulz/static.html
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Peter D
Read somewhere about an accident in the States. A guy answered his mobile whilst filling up and dropped the phone, the phone flew into peices and a spark lit up the fuel vapour. Could you blame the mobile phone for that ???? Regards Peter
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
As someone who regularly visits oil refineries in the Middle East and also involved in the aviation industry I am amazed at the attitude that this is a nonsense rule. The risk of spark production is small I agree but the rule is there for the same reason as the 'turn off mobile rule' on an aircraft.

Do you want to be the first one to be responsible for an explosion in a petrol station or bring down an aircraft.

Who the hell needs to use a mobile in a petrol station or when driving or flying for that matter - How did you manage to survive without the blasted things 20 years ago.

TURN THEM OFF !
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Jazzmag
Err, what?!? Ask me a question!
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
read someone's profile ages ago and they went to salford uni, doing the course i had done years earlier, then went on to work for Siemens, as I did. Wondered if it was you.

Sorry to the other backroomers for hijacking this thread.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Jazzmag
Hi pdc,

Nope, sorry wasn't me. I did my time at sunny old Plymouth Uni - plenty of beach & surfing, not too far away!!

Sorry to the other BRs, too!
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - henry k
I read, in the last two months, a printed notice at a filling station that listed three situations where a mobile phone was cited as causing fires at filling stations.
I am pretty sure it was at the filling station opposite Poole, Hospital in Dorset.
Can anyone local to there check it out?
I seem to recall one example where a car was written off.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - No Do$h
I read, in the last two months, a printed notice at
a filling station that listed three situations where a mobile phone
was cited as causing fires at filling stations.
I am pretty sure it was at the filling station opposite
Poole, Hospital in Dorset.
Can anyone local to there check it out?
I seem to recall one example where a car was written
off.


The note was in circulation around all the local BP sites (the one at Poole Hospital is one of them). It was all rather badly copied and could just have easily been produced from an alarmist email
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
The question is why does anyone need to use a mobile phone in a petrol station? Why cannot some people just accept that there is a slight possibility that their mobile may produce a spark? What happens to their life if they cause an explosion ?

All I'm saying is, just turn them off for the five minutes that it takes to fill the tank.

They can phone home and tell the wife that they've been to the petrol station afterwards , hand free of course.

Jazzmag - theres three questions there.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Galaxy
I was at one time a licensed radio amateur. It states in the licensing conditions that transmitting equipment should not be used in the vicinity of a petrol station.

In another connection, where I used to work we regularly obtained supplies of liquified gasses for our research work. If we happened to need our supply in a great hurry, as was sometimes the case, this meant that someone had to drive a van down to the suppliers gas plant to collect it.

If you went there, and, at the time, they happened to be tranferring liquid oxygen, if you were driving a petrol powered vehicle they wouldn't allow you in until their transfer had been completed. However, if you were driving a diesel vehicle, i.e. a vehicle that didn't have an ignition system, then you could proceed to enter straight away.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
the thing that has always struck me as odd about the ban of mobiles, due to the possibility of sparks, is the fact of the whole car ignition system. Much more of a chance of a spark coming from there!

Any one know how the motors that drive the pumps are powered, and why it is that they, if electric, have a lesser chance of causing an explosion? And what about the digital readouts?

It is the consideration of these that makes me believe that it is the radio transmission that they do not want in the vicinity of the pumps.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
Any equipment specifically designed for use in petrol stations or refineries is 'IS' or intrinsically safe - see post above.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - OldPeculiar
I believe there is no danger from either mobile phones or basestations at petrol stations. the RF power levels are low and RF itself is not a source of ignition. I suppose there's the suggestion that if the battery was shorted it could create a spark but then turning off the phone wouldn't make any difference - in fact your just as likely to have a problem with a palm pilot or anything else electrical.

My qualification in this? I'm a radio frequency engineer working for a large telecommunications company and spend my days designing the front end circuitry for mobile phone basestations (both GSM and 3G)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
My qualification in this? I'm a radio frequency engineer working for
a large telecommunications company and spend my days designing the front
end circuitry for mobile phone basestations (both GSM and 3G)


Well if it's for Hutch 3G, then you're off my xmas card list.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - OldPeculiar
No I work for an equipment manufacturer - Hutch 3G is a potential customer
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Altea Ego
Ok I tried to stay ou of this one but cant!

Factoid 1
The RF (radio frequency not "me") of a hand held mobile phone will *not* affect the accuracy of pump delivery. I was a radio ham once (and a pirate CBer) and yes given I was pumping out lots of illegal watts (100) I could have blitzed the pump workings but would need to transmit to do it. Ok we all know mobile phones transmit (poll) from time to time when not being used, but the levels involved will not disrupt the pump.

Factoid 2
The battery in a mobile phone is actually quite powerful. Short out a charged one it will explode or ignite. Read several cases of cheap phone batteries self igniting and burning/maiming the phone owner. Drop it, and it breaks apart it is possible to have a spark.

Factoid 3
RF can spark. And Burn. Its entrely possible that I could have caused a spark with my illegal 100 watts AM thro my firestick. Modern mobile phone? nah cant do it not enough radiated power.

So its the phone itself, the power contained within its power source that is the danger. Keep it in the car. Oh and lock the car.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - OldPeculiar
Sorry Renault, you're quite right it is possible to get burn stuff with high power RF (some of our PA's get very warm!!) but the power levels from a mobile won't do it (could have written that better:)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Robbie
Years ago, when I had a Calibra, the ABS light used to come on just before my mobile 'phone rang. It was a Nokkia, and would have been analogue, I assume, in 1991.

Clearly, even the low power of such a device is able to affect electronic equipment.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Altea Ego
Years ago, when I had a Calibra, the ABS light used
to come on just before my mobile 'phone rang. It
was a Nokkia, and would have been analogue, I assume, in
1991.
Clearly, even the low power of such a device is able
to affect electronic equipment.



Good point, but the old analogue phones could step up to 4 watts output (about the same ERP - effective radiated power) and contained within the confines of the car the RF could affect car electronics. The same does not apply to the pumps tho. You are in the open, the smaller output of modern phones is radiated away, and the pumps themselves are screened.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Andrew-T
I'm with helicopter. The warning signs people are questioning don't have space to explain the possible causes of ignition - warnings have to be succinct. The fact that even appropriately educated readers don't believe ignition is possible should not mean the warning can be ignored - just that they may not have thought of everything, or they are just b*****-minded and want to use their mobile anyway.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - smokie
Catching up with this one a little late - but helicopter gets my vote too.

Why can't people interrupt their phone conversations just while they fill with fuel? Hardly too much to ask is it?

Oh, and as for mobiles phones not being at risk of causing a spark - see www.theregister.co.uk/content/68/33309.html

Some laptop makers also had problems in the last year with batteries self-igniting, and carried out a major recall programme at great expense, so these problems are real.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Stargazer {P}
And mine, it is not the RF transmissions causing the fire risk but the risk of dropping a battery and it cracking the case and shorting or sparking.

The warning signs are simplistic to get the message across. You are much less likely to be holding or able to drop a phone if you are not using it. It is not the use of the phone that is the problem but the potential to drop it.

Phones and radios for use in hazardous environments (oil processing plants etc) are specially designed and tested.

I have seen a petrol station operator refuse to authorise a pump to dispense fuel because the potential customer was having a phone conversation as he drive in to the station and tried to continue the conversation as he got out of the car and tried to use the petrol pump. Quite right IMHO.

Ian L.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
The very fact that highly educated electronic engineers appear to be divided on this thread is enough for me.I don't think it needs more than plain common sense.
Please people , just accept that there is a slight risk and turn 'em off. Its not going to cause you any delays and it may just save an explosion.
By the way if you see anyone else using one a friendly word usually gets them turned off.
A lot of people just don't realise the danger and aren't aware of the notices ( because they're busily talking on their mobile).
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - NabLane
I remember seeing a memo on the noticeboard of a company we do work for that has many flammmable liquid storage tanks on-site.

It took me a while to track it down (eventually managed to get the text from North Ayrshire /council's website). It reads...

Don't use your mobile phone around petrol.




WARNING - mobile phones can ignite petrol vapour.


This extract was taken from the June 2002 issue of the Bulletin, the Journal of the Association for Petroleum and Explosives Administration.

Shell have issued a warning about the use of mobile phones on petrol filling stations, they have reported 3 incidents recently where mobile phones have ignited fumes whilst being answered/ringing during refueling operations. In the first case the phone was placed on the boot lid of the vehicle during fuelling, it rang and the ensuing fire destroyed the car and the pump.

In the second the individual suffered burns to the face when fumes ignited as he answered a call during fuelling.

In the third case, an individual suffered burns to the thigh and groin as fumes ignited when the phone, which was in his pocket rang during fuelling.

It is a misconception that mobile phones can't ignite fuel/fumes. They are not intrinsic safe instruments and the modern phones (those that light up when either switched on or when they ring) have enough energy released to provide the spark for ignition.

Shell have issued new warnings and reminded staff that mobile phones should not be used in filling stations. Mobile phones should be turned off before exiting the vehicle when stopping in a filling station.

North Ayrshire Council Petroleum Licensing Conditions state that the licensee shall take all practicable steps necessary to prevent the operation of radio transmitting equipment including citizens band radios and mobile telephones in the hazardous area.

Trading Standards Service would like to remind consumers in the interests of safety to switch off their mobile phones before entering the fuelling area of a petrol filling station.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - b3gon
Shell have denied that they know of any mobile phone connected incidents - it's just another urban myth propagated without evidence of time or place.
If such a thing happened we would never hear the last of it from the media.

ref:

www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=my-en&FC2=&FC3...l
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - OldPeculiar
I understand your point Helicoptor but by singleing out mobiles you ignore other equipment that could arguably be just as "bad" for example CB radio's, police walkie talkies, palm pilots (same battery technology) and any other personal electronics.

Another driving analogy would be the recent ban on hand held phones whilst driving - It singles out a group whilst ignoring other dangerous practices like the bloke I saw last month reading the paper whilst driving.

danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
I just wonder why if it is an urban myth Shell have bothered to put up all those warning notices along with every other fuel retailer in the land.

Yes I agree laptops, palm pilots , CB radios and all sorts of other electrical equipment may cause a problem but the most pressing problem is the vast number of people now using mobiles.

Most people are not using their laptop when filling up.

danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
Some places I have worked place a ban on mobiles in the computer server rooms, as they can (supposedly) set off the halide fire extinguisher systems.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - paulb {P}
I just wonder why if it is an urban myth Shell have bothered >> to put up all those warning notices along with every other
fuel retailer in the land.


They're probably scared stiff of being sued, on the off-chance that the risk does materialise, and they didn't warn people about it. After all, there was all that hoo-hah about pins for poppies about a month ago.

I filled up yesterday and, as usual, turned the mobile off before actually driving onto the forecourt - and then some dodgy-looking bloke in a beat-up Sierra pulls up beside me, fag hanging from mouth.......
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - OldPeculiar
I caught a lorry driver lighting up with one hand whilst filling up with the other last summer - When I questioned him about it (from a distance) he didn't speak a word of English and completely ignored me (as did the person behind the till)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - OldPeculiar
To use a latin phrase: Coverus Bottomus (withus bothus handus).
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
I've become very bored with this thread.

The fact is that there is a risk in using a mobile in a fuel station albeit small.

There are people who ignore this risk and put me and you at risk by their refusal to accept that anybody knows better than them.

If brains were semtex then they haven't got enough to blow their ears off but if they use thier mobiles around fuel they might succeed.

I refuse to get involved in this thread any more - So there - (flounces off to do some work.)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
But it would appear that the danger is from the risk of the battery, and not the phone itself, therefore all equipment with batteries should not be used. I log all my tank fillings in my pda, and am therefore at risk, maybe?
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
As it is a sensible point you make pdc , I've returned to the fray.

Yes - There is a risk in my opinion with any battery operated electrical equipment around fuel.Why take a risk when it when it can be avoided?

My advice is switch it off.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - flatfour
Safeway filling station in Patchway Bristol has pictures of a burnt out filling station, the cause was a guy dropping his mobile whilst filling up, the phone split and the battery fell out making a spark.
All you have to do is put in your door pocket for 3min then we can all go home to a barbeque and not be part of it. What is so important that we have to answer a mobile call no matter where we are or what we are doing, I rely on mine for my living but heck I don't want to answer it when i'm filling up, or overtaking a lorry on a B road, or send a text whilst navigating kids going into school.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Andrew-T
Playing devil's advocate, helicopter, why does switching it off guard against a spark if the phone is dropped? If anything, the act of switching it off increases the risk of dropping it?
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - drbe
I've become very bored with this thread.


Then why do you keep responding to it?

It seems to me that probably the rule/regulation/law was devised by the same person that decreed that every aircraft had to have a life jacket under the seat.

Name one person who has had their life saved by a lifejacket. Perhaps his brother-in-law owned a life jacket manufacturing company.

Ever so slightly TIC.

drbe
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Mikey Jay
Of course, if the use of mobile phones was allowed in petrol stations, there would very likely be problems with people causing delays to fellow customers by not paying full attention to what they should be doing. ie. getting on and filling their cars up and vacating the forecourt as quickly as possible,instead of blah blah blahhring on their godforsaken mobiles. I could see that such distracted people could be a real problem to those who justifiably want to get the refuelling process over and get on their way. I agree that the so called safety issue re using mobiles in filling stations is a load of unsubstantiated hogwash.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
Of course, if the use of mobile phones was allowed in
petrol stations, there would very likely be problems with people causing
delays to fellow customers by not paying full attention to what
they should be doing.


Now this is a justified reason to ban phones on the forecourt.

Personally I try not to use my mobile anywhere. The idea of being contactable and being able to call people from anywhere was a novelty to me back in 95. Now it's just a pain. The govt should forget about banning smoking in all public places and instead concentrate on banning mobiles :-)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - THe Growler
Amen. Mine is always off until I decide to make a call.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
And now that most phones seem to have a vibrate function, why is it necessary for people to have the phone blast out that latest chart *hit on full vol.

Sadly, having said that, I got hold of a polyphonic Merry Christmas Everyone (Slade) last night. Shoot me now!
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - trancer
Mikey Jay was the first person to get close. The risk from using mobile phones while filling up is that you could get distracted and stick the nozzle in the wrong hole...on the car. Surely 20 litres of petrol pumped into a hot exhaust pipe poses a serious risk of fire and/or explosion. I fully expect a hands-free only law to be introduced to cover petrol station useage.

Where I used to live the police patrol cars were fitted with laptops which remained on while the officers were filling up at the petrol station. The laptops remained on even after fueling as they parked up off to the side of the pumps and utilized the DVD player functions of said laptop 8-).
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
OK - I've had a good nights sleep so I am returning to this one refreshed.

I do so because I think there is a risk , no other reason.

I also think we are never going to convince the sort of moron who has had their brain fried by radiation to turn their toy off whatever we say.

I see it as a matter of safety and education. On balance I would rather not take the risk of an explosion.

On balance I would rather have a lifejacket under my seat than not if my plane (or helicopter) was coming down into water.

Who needs a mobile on all the time - don't they just get very annoying.

Turn 'em off please.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - SpamCan61 {P}
The potential issue is the electric field generated by the radio transmissions not just sparks from the battery. A quick google produced the following link; which provides a nice summary.

FWIW my opinion is that it would be really difficult to ignite vapour with a 2 watt GSM mobile; but not totally impossible; hence the ban.

www.aca.gov.au/consumer_info/publications/bulletin...f
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Andrew-T
Surely the fundamental point is that while many (some?) of our contributors accept that a risk exists, few consider it to be significant, so it's worth taking - maybe for the convenience of making a phone call. A bit like those people who continue to live in the shadow of Vesuvius - it won't erupt in my lifetime. One difference is that if it does, and a lot of people get hurt, it won't be anyone's fault.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
I also think we are never going to convince the sort
of moron who has had their brain fried by radiation to
turn their toy off whatever we say.


Depending on which scientific report you read, mobiles either fry your brains, or they don't. No mention has ever been made about what it frys if you carry your phone on a belt clip or in your trouser pocket :-)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - helicopter
Most of the type I'm talking about seem to have their brains (if any) in that region any way. Fried sausages anyone.

HALLOOOOOO - I'M AT THE PETROL STATION.(motoring link)
HALLOOOOOO - I'M ON THE TRAIN
HALLOOOOOO - I'M AT THE OPERA?

British Airways advert says it all really.

Turn 'em off.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - madf
I don't use my mobile at filling stations. And I switch my car engine off..

But consider motorway service stations and high powered turbo cars pulling in to fill up after 2 hours at 80mph plus. Turbo glowing red.. and any petrol vapour could explode as well.

Logic says if mobile phone usage is banned so should turbo cars.. util cooled off of course...
:-)

madf
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - trancer
Don't stop at banning turbo cars, I say ban those mini-markets at petrol stations too. Last night at a rather busy Shell (I was determined to try the all singing, all dancing Optimax for the first time)I pulled up behind a driver who was just replacing his petrol cap before heading off to pay. I sat and waited for ages, until I saw him returning to his car with 4 carrier bags containing about a week's worth of shopping!. He wisely avoided all eye contact with me as the flames flickering in my eyes would have surely ignited the mother of all blazes.

I could have tried another pump, but only two had Optimax and as soon as the other became free another car pulled up before I could make my way over to it.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - cryhavock
Having read this entire thread, it seems to me that the consensus is that the risk is from the battery shorting in case of an impact, and then giving off a spark.

If that is the case (and I would be inclined to agree with that assessment) then how does turning the phone off help? The battery remains charged and capable of sparking...
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Dynamic Dave
If that is the case (and I would be inclined to
agree with that assessment) then how does turning the phone off
help? The battery remains charged and capable of sparking...


But if the phone is turned off, then the battery isn't consuming any power. No power, no risk of a spark.

Personally I leave mine switched on, but left within the confinements of the car's interior away from any risk of accidentally dropping it on the forecourt.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - buzbee
danger of mobiles at petrol stations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To pronounce on this subject and, even more so, to carry out experiments and claim to have proved something, requires expert knowledge in several subjects. Not least a very good knowledge of metal structures in the presence of radio waves.

Second a knowledge of explosive gas mixtures and how they can be ignited and, by implication, what prevents their ignition.

Thirdly a knowledge of mobile phones -- or whatever electronics box is being investigated.

Fourthly, if you want to go on and consider what and how radio waves interfere with sensitive electronic equipment, you need a good working knowledge of semiconductor circuits and how radio waves affect them and what types of radio wave do this and why.

So far, although the case of the dropped mobile causing a short circuit has been correctly identified as a possible ignition source, the other contributions, with the odd notable exception, are little more than wild guesses.

I have read all the posts including a few 27/11's but not the links. Life is too short. I have only stayed with this HJ thread because the subject has been rattling around for too long with very little (that I have come across) that seems to have much of a clue as to what it is all about.

I am not at all surprised that you can put 6 mobiles in a caravan, douse it with petrol, then ring each phone in turn and the caravan does not explode. It demonstrates to me the experimenters total lack of understanding of the subject except that it involves a mobile phone ! I can walk out of my house when there is lightning about and not get struck. It does that mean it can never happen. We know it can, primarily because millions of people were/are involved in the experiment of rare events.

Yes it is unlikely your mobile will cause an explosion. But it is not impossible and so it is a valid question, should you sensibly take the risk?

It seems that first an experiment is needed to convince the sceptics that petrol vapour can be ignited using just a mobile. Normally I would go and do the experiment and write it up but I have had enough of doing electronic experiments (too many years) and nowadays I build only the odd bits I can't ,or prefer not to, buy. So I will just tell you how to do the experiment and leave others keen to do it to collect the glory.

Here is what you do. First you need to know exactly what frequency the mobile transmits on. (I am sure there are plenty here who will know but note that not all mobiles are the same). Then you make a loop using wire that is approximately a half wavelength long. Don't close the loop. Instead leave a gap of 1mm. Wavelength is 3 x 100 000 000, divided by the frequency, answer in metres. Frequency is around 180 000 000 - 220 000 000 I think -- I have lost track of what they are now using.

Stand the loop up on a 50 - 100 mm or so light polystyrene block by cutting a little slot in the top pushing it in. This eases the handling. Hold it by the polystyrene.

Go to a place where there is bad signal so that a mobile will be transmitting full power. Switch the mobile on and bring it near the loop. Keep fingers away from the loop when testing. The object is to get the loop excited by the mobile so that it sparks across the gap. This may need the orientation of the coil to be adjusted with respect to the mobile.

Note that the loop length is critical and you may need to adjust the wire length. [In the lab a variable frequency signal generator would be used to get the loop size correct very quickly and the experiment is a matter of minutes].

First see if you can get a spark. Next see if you can increase the gap to 2mm and have it still spark. If you can you can get 2 mm you can readily explode petrol vapour.

However, if you need to convince some higher power that mobiles are dangerous and thus wish go the extra mile to demonstrate it, I suggest you use a 10mm or so thick Perspex container (tube) large enough not to crowd the loop. Test the loop inside that, and adjust the loop if necessary. Then, WITH PROPER SAFETY PRECAUTIONS, put the required number of drops of petrol into the Perspex container, put on a loose lid, stand back and show that you can fire the petrol/air mixture.

Even 1 mm gap should do it depending how you made the loop ends.

Finally, in regard to mobiles being low power, remember they pulse the power and the pulse power is higher than the average by something like 20 times -- again I may be a bit out of date with the 20 figure. I dropped out of their design during the prototyping stage. And my guess as to pulse power is that it is probably about 2-3 watts. More than enough to excite the loop. We shall see.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pdc {P}
Nothing interesting on TV last night Buzbee?
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pmh
Good to see Dereksn51 ! ,A good approach to the problem. If I had had the time, I would have posted something similar. I believe there is a theoretical and a real risk, albeit with a very low probability of ignition. Red hot cats igniting a petrol spill are probably a geater risk, and this doesnt seem to happen very often! I will probably continue to leave my on when visiting a petrol station, just lazy, fingers heavily crossed.






pmh (was peter)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - SpamCan61 {P}
Speaking as someone with over 20 years experience in RF design (boy that's depressing) then I can only re-state that the battery shorting issue is not the prime concern; it is ignition of vapour by the RF field generated when a mobile transmits.

In terms of output power then GSM mobiles are all between 1 watt and 2 watts peak output power; the average power will be lower by a factor of 8. (apart from GPRS; when the average can be a factor of 4 rather than 8).

The networks will be optimised to keep mobile transmit power as low as possible, to extend battery life & reduce interferance in the network, so will only be transmitting at full power when absolutuely necessary to keep the call going.

danger of mobiles at petrol stations - cryhavock
Sorry DD,

that's not how it works - the risk of the spark is because there is a voltage difference between the two terminals of the battery and, as long as the battery is charged, it is capable of causing a spark in short-circuit conditions, whether or not there is anything else drawing current from the battery.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - OldPeculiar
In the interests of Science I shall fill in the gaps in Buzbee's experiment:

Mobile frequencies: transmit 880MHz - 915MHz (receive 925MHz to 960MHz) and 1710MHz - 1785MHz (receive 1805MHz to 1880MHz)

Mobile phone power maximum burst power is 1W for 1800 phones (class one) and 0.8W for 900 phones (class 5) Higher power classes exist for 900 phones in the GSM specifications but are not used. Whilst in use a phone transmits for 0.546ms in every 4.615ms (for a standard 2G GSM phone) giving a maximum average power per frame of 0.12W (usually less as the basestation can reduce the mobiles power level)

Maybe I'll have a go later in the lab.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - daveyjp
From what I remember petrol requires a spark to ignite. Pouring petrol on a very hot piece of metal i.e. catalyst, turbo etc is not sufficient to cause an explosion. This was demonstrated a few years ago by Top Gear when they investigated car fires. Petrol was poured on to a hot exhaust manifold and there was no ignition. They found that brake fluid does ignite on contact with a hot surface and this may be responsible for the ferocity of some car fires.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - pmh
Surely average power is irrelevant. Peak power is what will generate the spark induced in a coupled tuned circuit. What common objects are likely to be of the correct size to create a resonant circuit at these frequencies? My first guess is a Coke can! Possibly a metal pull security seal ring on a glass jar of baby food? This would then have a potential gap in it?

Spamcan61 can probably provide the answers.

Who has got the sacrificial Lab?




pmh (was peter)
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - buzbee
Thanks for the power/frequency info. I remember doing work at 1800 megs and my figure above was supposed to have been 1800 000 000 but I missed off a zero.

Does the 4.615ms include the listening period of the TDM ?

The interesting bit of the experiment is, can the spark be produced and at what range can it be sustained.

Hope for some feedback.


danger of mobiles at petrol stations - buzbee
Looks like 4 transmit and 4 receive slots with the base station hogging 1 for the control. Leaving 3 mobiles per cell, if I get that right.

Unless there is some way the base station is able to use the mobile\'s slot/s with a bit of extra code. In which case you get 4 mobiles per cell -- just rambling until someone clears that up.

On another note, the loop is a good subject for a PHD for some up and coming bright student --- not me!

Power/energy stored when sufficient to produce a spark devided by the loop Q equals energy required from mobile. Field from mobile times capture area of loop gives power captured. That field/power MUST be supplied by the mobile --- I had better go quiet else someone here is going so see that there is nothing on TV for me.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - flatfour
Dangers of using your phone in a service station, increase as your concentration deminishes, and you stick the nozzle in your ear and the phone into your petrol tank.

Seriously last week I was filling up when some stupid old female threw her fag end from her car as her husband paid for fuel, it landed red hot on the back of my hand that i was using to fill up!
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - SjB {P}
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4366337.stm
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Stuartli
Here's the very, very latest news on the subject(!):

www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/21/mobile_explosion_.../
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Rishab C
This rule is from the 1980s when mobile phones were attached by curly cable to a transmitter the size of a briefcase with lead acid abtteries inside, these analogue ETACs phones could emit an arc from a damaged antenna, as they operated at higher power than modern digital handsets with much greater proliferation of transmitters.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Arty
Anyone seen the show "Mythbusters"?

Mobiles and petrol fires are an urban myth, most likely cause is static electricity.

Women are overrepresented in fire accidents as they are more likely to turn on the pump and wait inside their car resulting in static from the interior.

The mobile myth would thus develop as you can imagine those waiting inside the cabin to be talking on their phones and so a false conclusion is made.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - madf
On the ground sthat cars contain catalysts - which can glow red hot after a long run at high speed- should not cars be banned from filling stations?

madf


Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - TheGrocer
Mobiles and petrol fires are an urban myth, most likely cause is static electricity.


I worked for ChevronTexaco for 7 years and whilst in the US I saw a evedence of burned out cars and fuel pumps which had been caused by static electricity. In the US with self fill pump handles people are asked NOT to get back into their cars as the static build up generated by rentering and exiting is a true and proven fire hazzard.

I now make a concious effort to ground myself on the pump housing before dispensing fuel and NEVER take the mobile out of the car. When youve seen the damage a little spark can cause you go out of your way to get gounded.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - SjB {P}
Static electricity is exactly why F1, and other formulae that allow in-race refuelling, have multiple sprung grounding plates attached to the pit lane surface, and aircraft, which can build up a collossal charge during flight, are grounded (no pun intended) on parking up.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - henry k
>> Mobiles and petrol fires are an urban myth, most likely cause is static electricity.
I saw a evedence of burned out cars and fuel pumps which had been caused by static electricity. In the US
with self fill pump handles people are asked NOT to get back into their cars as the static build up generated by
rentering and exiting is a true and proven fire hazzard.
I now make a concious effort to ground myself on the pump housing before dispensing fuel and NEVER take the mobile out of the car.

>>

BBC 2 has just shown Mythbusters trying to ignite petrol vapour with a mobile phone and failed totally.

They did however have success with simulating static build up by drivers.
In the US where you can lock the trigger, then go and sit in your seat before returning to the fuel hose, there is a risk of the driver supplying a spark for the vapour coming out of the tank.
IIRC most US nozzles had a vapour recover feature so perhaps these accident happen with old pumps.

There seems to be absolutely no risk with mobile phones in normal use.
NU seem to support this.
www.nu-riskservices.co.uk/news/articles/cms/111151...m

Thought I would wake up an old thread.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Armitage Shanks {p}
I think there is a tiny risk of a spark if you drop your telephone and the battery comes off; this might create a small spark
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Hamsafar
Especially in the ETACS days (1980s) they had lead-acid batteries in them and also the signals were much stronger in analogue days, and a bare aerial could spark to a large metal object, however, these sparks were't hot enough to ignite vapour.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - bell boy
i once was charged too much in a petrol station, would that spark a problem? washington dc i think and i was in an ac cobra.
i was alternating whether to complain or not but my wife flatly refused to let me pointing out we could spend a night in the cells it had ts positive side but taking in also the negatives we stayed closer to earth.........
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Red Baron
Yep, saw this programme too. Interesting experiment and reasonably scientific, but I would like to know what fuel/air ratio they had to use to effect ignition.

I too am deeply sceptical of the mobile phone theory.

ESD (Electro Static Discharge) is a far more likely scenario. For a person to even feel such a static discharge, the energy has to be in the region of 3,000 volts. Low ampage, of course, but 3,000 volts is serious stuff and would easily fry components in this mobile phone.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Galaxy
I watched the programme too.

What I couldn't understand was why they were using the mobile phone to receive a call.

Surely, to investigate the effect they were looking to find, the phone should have been making a call, i.e. transmitting, which would have produced power coming from the aerial. If this effect does, indeed, happen at all, I believe it's going to be far more likely it will happen in this way.

This would have been much more difficult to engineer for the test, though not impossible.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Dynamic Dave
What I couldn't understand was why they were using the mobilephone to receive a call.
Surely, to investigate the effect they were looking to find, the phone should have been making a call, i.e. transmitting..


I didn't watch the programme, but if I've understood your message correctly (the phone recieved a call) then it would be transmitting the same amount of power the moment it started to ring as it would have done if used to make a call .
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Lounge Lizard
Just accept it: mobile phones don't cause petrol pump fires, bring down air-liners or affect hospital life support equipment. And they never have done. Not a single proven case.

It's something that's been made up by people who seek power through creating fear.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Dynamic Dave
It's something that's been made up by people who seek power through creating fear.


The real reason, as recently mentioned by Armitage Shanks & Ashok (and several people elsewhere in this thread dating right back to Nov 2003) is that if a phone was dropped, there is potential for a spark if the battery were to become disconnected.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Cliff Pope
If running a car engine in a petrol station creates a fire hazzard, why doean't driving in or operating the starter motor do so similarly?
If this were a real danger surely cars should coast in with their engines switched off, and then be pushed well clear before starting up again.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Armitage Shanks {p}
Not totally true LL. As a pilot for 40 years I have an interest in these matters and the CAA state the following


Mobile phones and personal electronic equipment
The CAA has conducted research which provided evidence that a mobile phone transmission on-board an aircraft may interfere with equipment including communications, navigation and flight control systems. There is circumstantial evidence that portable electronic devices such as CD players and computer games can also cause interference. As a result there is a requirement that:

The use of mobile phones on board is prohibited once all of the aircraft doors are closed.

In addition, the use of personal electronic equipment by passengers, such as laptop computers, electronic games, calculators, CD players, cassette players, radios, TVs, video cameras and remote controlled toys, is prohibited during take-off and landing phases, when the passenger seat belt sign is on, and whenever the aircraft commander suspects that their use may be the cause of interference.





Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - machika
A programme on TV called the Myth Exploders (or something similar) looked at this last night. They tried to create a fire, in controlled circumstances, with a cell phone and failed to do so.

It appears the big danger at filling stations, is created when people get into and out of their cars, whilst the car is filling, which they seem to do a lot of in the USA, as the knozzle can be left to carry on filling the tank without being held. Getting in and out of a car can create static electricity, hence leading to the danger of a spark being generated. They did eventually manage to simulate the conditions needed to create an explosion, to prove this was possible.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Pugugly {P}
Good Grief how I've aged !

Just seen a post of mine going back to 2003 Anyway - We have a very keen Health and Safety type as an Office Manager, she's RA our Blackberries and she's happy there's no need to turn them off at Petrol Stations. That's good enough for me.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Aretas
I feel sure I have seen similar on this site, but this shows exactly what machika was explaining. Go to:

www.pei.org/static/static.avi

I have omitted the http:// so you will have to cut and paste
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Peter D
From memory this all stems back to an explosion in the US. It was caused by a 'Cell' phone being dropped whilst the guy was filling his car and the phone broke and the battery shorted and bang. Regards Peter
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - colinh
Garages in Spain usually insist that all lights are off before filling up - I would have thought there was more risk in switching on/off.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Armitage Shanks {p}
Certainly, if you have a gas leak in your house, you are advised to swict nothing electrical on or off. A big bang can be the result and frequently has been!
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Lounge Lizard
Peter,

The story you cite is (another) hoax.

I invite you, or anyone, to cite a reference to any recognised fire investigation report which concluded that dropping a mobile phone lead to a forecourt fire.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Lounge Lizard
Reply to Armitage Shanks:

I'm afraid it's the CAA getting in on the hoax!

You cite me a single case of an aircraft being brought down (or even slightly threatened) by use of a mobile phone.

Please don't tell me that this hasn't happened because use of mobile phones has been banned on air-liners. As I write this the skies are full of many, many, thousands of mobile phones being carried by air-liners. Many will turned off, turned on, malfunctioning, transmitting, being sat on...
If there was the slightest chance of this endangering the aircraft then we'd have had a few crashes or near-misses by now and we'd be searched for mobile phones before boarding.

Mobile phones in aircraft - Armitage Shanks {p}
LL. There is a stated and quantified risk. Navigation equipment has been interfered with by signals from electronic devices in passenger aircraft. Not all the time, not all equipment, not all aircraft; the fact that it has happened is good enough reason to have them switched off in flight IMHO. Luckily there have been no crashed aircraft to date. If having all phone switched off prevents one crash in 100 years that is a price worth paying; apart from the joy of not having to listen to other peoples shouted converstaions. Some people shout so loudly I wonder if the phones are even switched on!
Mobile phones in aircraft - Armitage Shanks {p}
It is a risk; not one I'd wish to cause or be subjected to by others who can't or won't obey the airline safety instructions. The same lot who read books and chat during the safety brief probably!

The Technical Stuff

All electrical and electronic devices emit electromagnetic radiation to a degree. This radiation is capable of being picked up by any other device within range. Whether the radiation is capable of actually interfering with the operation of the second device is dependant on the frequency and amplitude (strength) of the signal. A strong enough interference signal could manifest itself as noise over a voice channel leading to a misinterpretation by the pilot say, or jam a navigation receiver so the plane doesn't know where it is, or it flip the state of 1s and 0s in a digital system causing it to behave erratically, give false warnings, or crash altogether.

For example, it has been found that a GSM4 and CDMA5 phone in close proximity will interfere with each other creating a signal at an entirely different frequency ? a mutual interference product ? that is very close to the band used by the aircraft's GPS and Distance Measuring Equipment (DME). A particular cellphone model, equipped with a built-in GPS receiver, was found to consistently cause an aircraft's GPS receiver to lose its signal entirely when switched on.

Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Pugugly {P}
I can quote a case where an A3** was brought down by multiple phone calls made by passangers after a late diverson. I will find it on t'internet.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - drbe
I can quote a case where an A3** was brought
down by multiple phone calls made by passangers after a late
diverson. I will find it on t'internet.


I bet you a shilling (and an apology) that you can't.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Pugugly {P}

Make it a bacon butty.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Pugugly {P}
well I'm handing over the virtual butty !

I've trawled the web endlessly. Searched me dad's library of Air Disaster books. We think we've found the particular crash but the ultimate cause was different. The old man seems to recall something but reckons it may have been a case of speculation by the media before the investigation.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - drbe
well I'm handing over the virtual butty !

Cheers!

OK if I save it until breakfast time tomorrow?

Looks like it's going to be the Riverside Cafe on the A4 at Colnbrook, tomorrow (Monday) the way the Joburg flights are performing!
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - Pugugly {P}
Oh I forgot to apologise - Sorry.




--
735310 - Total sense in an upside down world.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - drbe
Oh I forgot to apologise - Sorry.



No problem - the bacon was good, by the way.
Static electricity cause fires at fuelup - rtj70
One reason I thought active mobiles were not welcome on planes is that being 30+ thousand feet in the air... which base station will the phone connect to. You could be equal distance to many cells with equally good signals. Probably cause problems for handover between cells etc.

Now with pico-cells turning up on planes, that problem is solved and I assume the mobiles will work at their lowest power settings. Obviously the plane needs testing for mobiles to be okay.

Rob
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - greenhey
Surely if there's any possibility of danger - and it would be a major incident, if true- it's not much to ask that people don't use their phones .
It's pathetic the way people won't be parted from them
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Lounge Lizard
'...It's pathetic the way people won't be parted from them'

What's pathetic (and dangerous) is unnecessary controls on the minutiae of our lives.

It is not a matter for you, or the CAA, to decide how important my mobile phone is to me in the absence of empirical evidence that it's hazardous.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Altea Ego
There have been many documented and proven cases where a mobile phone has interfered with aircraft systems, and it is still happening. To date no aircraft loss has been identified due to the use of a mobile phone.

In my opinion, where the average airbus product has software and flight systems so flakey that they can barely cope with normal use, without throwing an electronic toy out of pram, I would far sooner not see a mobile phone in use unless the aircraft has been certified so to do.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - bell boy
and i agree especially when we are talking fly by wire rather than hydraulics
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - henry k
A few comments

www.mobile-review.com/articles/2002/plane-en.shtml

www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A6821318
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - henry k
www.airsafe.com/issues/ped.htm

also says

Devices that may not be operated at any time
AM or FM radios, televisions, scanners, two-way radios, remote controlled devices, wireless mouse, other transmitters (with the exceptions noted earlier)

I wonder how many users of a wireless mouse are aware of this?

Having had a couple of fuel spillages in filling stations l would be more concerned about the reactions, or lack of, of the staff on site rather than any mobile phone effect..
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Lounge Lizard
>>There have been many documented and proven cases where a mobile phone has interfered with aircraft systems, and it is still happening.>

OK, TVM, please could you supply a reference?
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Altea Ego
Quote

"1.2 There are an increasing number of reports, including Mandatory Occurrence Reports
(MORs) from within the UK, of interference to aircraft systems, which were cited as
caused by PEDs or where PEDs were cited as a causal or circumstantial factor."

from

www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP756.PDF


------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - rtj70
These seem to think mobiles and aircraft will mix.....

www.onair.aero/en/index_en.asp

They are working with Airbus and bmi are a trial partner I think.

Not saying I agree because I will probably still switch my phone off if all this happens.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Altea Ego
No one is saying it can never be done. Suitably modified, equiped and emc hardened aircraft can, will and do handle mobile phones.
I still wouldnt trust an Airbus tho

------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Manatee
Lounge Lizard:>>It is not a matter for you, or the CAA, to decide how important my mobile phone is to me in the absence of empirical evidence that it's hazardous.

How important your phone is, or how important or pompous you are, is not the issue. You can demonstate your bravado all you like on your private jet, but I'd rather not be on a plane with 180 mobiles all fighting for a connection. By all means make your own decision but don't make one for me.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - Armitage Shanks {p}
Quote re-posted for LL's benefit!

For example, it has been found that a GSM4 and CDMA5 phone in close proximity will interfere with each other creating a signal at an entirely different frequency ? a mutual interference product ? that is very close to the band used by the aircraft's GPS and Distance Measuring Equipment (DME). A particular cellphone model, equipped with a built-in GPS receiver, was found to consistently cause an aircraft's GPS receiver to lose its signal entirely when switched on.
danger of mobiles at petrol stations - smokie
An odd thing is that despite a number of laptop recalls (to do with power supplies or batteries spontaneously bursting into flame), these devices are still allowed to be used on aircraft.

I would imagine that if a laptop battery can ignite itself, I guess a phone battery could. Whether or not that is due to a manufacturing or design fault is not relevant.

Why oh why do people think they know best - not using mobiles on planes or forecourts seems eminently sensible to me even though I have no evidence either way of problems - yet (as said above) people are prepared to jeopardise themselves and others despite clear warnings, which they choose to ignore.

I always assume that the poor things can't read... :-)
 

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