Shell have denied that they know of any mobile phone connected incidents - it's just another urban myth propagated without evidence of time or place.
If such a thing happened we would never hear the last of it from the media.
ref:
www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=my-en&FC2=&FC3...l
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I understand your point Helicoptor but by singleing out mobiles you ignore other equipment that could arguably be just as "bad" for example CB radio's, police walkie talkies, palm pilots (same battery technology) and any other personal electronics.
Another driving analogy would be the recent ban on hand held phones whilst driving - It singles out a group whilst ignoring other dangerous practices like the bloke I saw last month reading the paper whilst driving.
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I just wonder why if it is an urban myth Shell have bothered to put up all those warning notices along with every other fuel retailer in the land.
Yes I agree laptops, palm pilots , CB radios and all sorts of other electrical equipment may cause a problem but the most pressing problem is the vast number of people now using mobiles.
Most people are not using their laptop when filling up.
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Some places I have worked place a ban on mobiles in the computer server rooms, as they can (supposedly) set off the halide fire extinguisher systems.
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I just wonder why if it is an urban myth Shell have bothered >> to put up all those warning notices along with every other fuel retailer in the land.
They're probably scared stiff of being sued, on the off-chance that the risk does materialise, and they didn't warn people about it. After all, there was all that hoo-hah about pins for poppies about a month ago.
I filled up yesterday and, as usual, turned the mobile off before actually driving onto the forecourt - and then some dodgy-looking bloke in a beat-up Sierra pulls up beside me, fag hanging from mouth.......
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I caught a lorry driver lighting up with one hand whilst filling up with the other last summer - When I questioned him about it (from a distance) he didn't speak a word of English and completely ignored me (as did the person behind the till)
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To use a latin phrase: Coverus Bottomus (withus bothus handus).
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I've become very bored with this thread.
The fact is that there is a risk in using a mobile in a fuel station albeit small.
There are people who ignore this risk and put me and you at risk by their refusal to accept that anybody knows better than them.
If brains were semtex then they haven't got enough to blow their ears off but if they use thier mobiles around fuel they might succeed.
I refuse to get involved in this thread any more - So there - (flounces off to do some work.)
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But it would appear that the danger is from the risk of the battery, and not the phone itself, therefore all equipment with batteries should not be used. I log all my tank fillings in my pda, and am therefore at risk, maybe?
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As it is a sensible point you make pdc , I've returned to the fray.
Yes - There is a risk in my opinion with any battery operated electrical equipment around fuel.Why take a risk when it when it can be avoided?
My advice is switch it off.
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Safeway filling station in Patchway Bristol has pictures of a burnt out filling station, the cause was a guy dropping his mobile whilst filling up, the phone split and the battery fell out making a spark.
All you have to do is put in your door pocket for 3min then we can all go home to a barbeque and not be part of it. What is so important that we have to answer a mobile call no matter where we are or what we are doing, I rely on mine for my living but heck I don't want to answer it when i'm filling up, or overtaking a lorry on a B road, or send a text whilst navigating kids going into school.
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Playing devil's advocate, helicopter, why does switching it off guard against a spark if the phone is dropped? If anything, the act of switching it off increases the risk of dropping it?
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I've become very bored with this thread.
Then why do you keep responding to it?
It seems to me that probably the rule/regulation/law was devised by the same person that decreed that every aircraft had to have a life jacket under the seat.
Name one person who has had their life saved by a lifejacket. Perhaps his brother-in-law owned a life jacket manufacturing company.
Ever so slightly TIC.
drbe
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Of course, if the use of mobile phones was allowed in petrol stations, there would very likely be problems with people causing delays to fellow customers by not paying full attention to what they should be doing. ie. getting on and filling their cars up and vacating the forecourt as quickly as possible,instead of blah blah blahhring on their godforsaken mobiles. I could see that such distracted people could be a real problem to those who justifiably want to get the refuelling process over and get on their way. I agree that the so called safety issue re using mobiles in filling stations is a load of unsubstantiated hogwash.
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Of course, if the use of mobile phones was allowed in petrol stations, there would very likely be problems with people causing delays to fellow customers by not paying full attention to what they should be doing.
Now this is a justified reason to ban phones on the forecourt.
Personally I try not to use my mobile anywhere. The idea of being contactable and being able to call people from anywhere was a novelty to me back in 95. Now it's just a pain. The govt should forget about banning smoking in all public places and instead concentrate on banning mobiles :-)
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Amen. Mine is always off until I decide to make a call.
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And now that most phones seem to have a vibrate function, why is it necessary for people to have the phone blast out that latest chart *hit on full vol.
Sadly, having said that, I got hold of a polyphonic Merry Christmas Everyone (Slade) last night. Shoot me now!
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Mikey Jay was the first person to get close. The risk from using mobile phones while filling up is that you could get distracted and stick the nozzle in the wrong hole...on the car. Surely 20 litres of petrol pumped into a hot exhaust pipe poses a serious risk of fire and/or explosion. I fully expect a hands-free only law to be introduced to cover petrol station useage.
Where I used to live the police patrol cars were fitted with laptops which remained on while the officers were filling up at the petrol station. The laptops remained on even after fueling as they parked up off to the side of the pumps and utilized the DVD player functions of said laptop 8-).
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OK - I've had a good nights sleep so I am returning to this one refreshed.
I do so because I think there is a risk , no other reason.
I also think we are never going to convince the sort of moron who has had their brain fried by radiation to turn their toy off whatever we say.
I see it as a matter of safety and education. On balance I would rather not take the risk of an explosion.
On balance I would rather have a lifejacket under my seat than not if my plane (or helicopter) was coming down into water.
Who needs a mobile on all the time - don't they just get very annoying.
Turn 'em off please.
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The potential issue is the electric field generated by the radio transmissions not just sparks from the battery. A quick google produced the following link; which provides a nice summary.
FWIW my opinion is that it would be really difficult to ignite vapour with a 2 watt GSM mobile; but not totally impossible; hence the ban.
www.aca.gov.au/consumer_info/publications/bulletin...f
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Surely the fundamental point is that while many (some?) of our contributors accept that a risk exists, few consider it to be significant, so it's worth taking - maybe for the convenience of making a phone call. A bit like those people who continue to live in the shadow of Vesuvius - it won't erupt in my lifetime. One difference is that if it does, and a lot of people get hurt, it won't be anyone's fault.
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I also think we are never going to convince the sort of moron who has had their brain fried by radiation to turn their toy off whatever we say.
Depending on which scientific report you read, mobiles either fry your brains, or they don't. No mention has ever been made about what it frys if you carry your phone on a belt clip or in your trouser pocket :-)
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Most of the type I'm talking about seem to have their brains (if any) in that region any way. Fried sausages anyone.
HALLOOOOOO - I'M AT THE PETROL STATION.(motoring link)
HALLOOOOOO - I'M ON THE TRAIN
HALLOOOOOO - I'M AT THE OPERA?
British Airways advert says it all really.
Turn 'em off.
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I don't use my mobile at filling stations. And I switch my car engine off..
But consider motorway service stations and high powered turbo cars pulling in to fill up after 2 hours at 80mph plus. Turbo glowing red.. and any petrol vapour could explode as well.
Logic says if mobile phone usage is banned so should turbo cars.. util cooled off of course...
:-)
madf
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Don't stop at banning turbo cars, I say ban those mini-markets at petrol stations too. Last night at a rather busy Shell (I was determined to try the all singing, all dancing Optimax for the first time)I pulled up behind a driver who was just replacing his petrol cap before heading off to pay. I sat and waited for ages, until I saw him returning to his car with 4 carrier bags containing about a week's worth of shopping!. He wisely avoided all eye contact with me as the flames flickering in my eyes would have surely ignited the mother of all blazes.
I could have tried another pump, but only two had Optimax and as soon as the other became free another car pulled up before I could make my way over to it.
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Having read this entire thread, it seems to me that the consensus is that the risk is from the battery shorting in case of an impact, and then giving off a spark.
If that is the case (and I would be inclined to agree with that assessment) then how does turning the phone off help? The battery remains charged and capable of sparking...
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If that is the case (and I would be inclined to agree with that assessment) then how does turning the phone off help? The battery remains charged and capable of sparking...
But if the phone is turned off, then the battery isn't consuming any power. No power, no risk of a spark.
Personally I leave mine switched on, but left within the confinements of the car's interior away from any risk of accidentally dropping it on the forecourt.
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danger of mobiles at petrol stations
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To pronounce on this subject and, even more so, to carry out experiments and claim to have proved something, requires expert knowledge in several subjects. Not least a very good knowledge of metal structures in the presence of radio waves.
Second a knowledge of explosive gas mixtures and how they can be ignited and, by implication, what prevents their ignition.
Thirdly a knowledge of mobile phones -- or whatever electronics box is being investigated.
Fourthly, if you want to go on and consider what and how radio waves interfere with sensitive electronic equipment, you need a good working knowledge of semiconductor circuits and how radio waves affect them and what types of radio wave do this and why.
So far, although the case of the dropped mobile causing a short circuit has been correctly identified as a possible ignition source, the other contributions, with the odd notable exception, are little more than wild guesses.
I have read all the posts including a few 27/11's but not the links. Life is too short. I have only stayed with this HJ thread because the subject has been rattling around for too long with very little (that I have come across) that seems to have much of a clue as to what it is all about.
I am not at all surprised that you can put 6 mobiles in a caravan, douse it with petrol, then ring each phone in turn and the caravan does not explode. It demonstrates to me the experimenters total lack of understanding of the subject except that it involves a mobile phone ! I can walk out of my house when there is lightning about and not get struck. It does that mean it can never happen. We know it can, primarily because millions of people were/are involved in the experiment of rare events.
Yes it is unlikely your mobile will cause an explosion. But it is not impossible and so it is a valid question, should you sensibly take the risk?
It seems that first an experiment is needed to convince the sceptics that petrol vapour can be ignited using just a mobile. Normally I would go and do the experiment and write it up but I have had enough of doing electronic experiments (too many years) and nowadays I build only the odd bits I can't ,or prefer not to, buy. So I will just tell you how to do the experiment and leave others keen to do it to collect the glory.
Here is what you do. First you need to know exactly what frequency the mobile transmits on. (I am sure there are plenty here who will know but note that not all mobiles are the same). Then you make a loop using wire that is approximately a half wavelength long. Don't close the loop. Instead leave a gap of 1mm. Wavelength is 3 x 100 000 000, divided by the frequency, answer in metres. Frequency is around 180 000 000 - 220 000 000 I think -- I have lost track of what they are now using.
Stand the loop up on a 50 - 100 mm or so light polystyrene block by cutting a little slot in the top pushing it in. This eases the handling. Hold it by the polystyrene.
Go to a place where there is bad signal so that a mobile will be transmitting full power. Switch the mobile on and bring it near the loop. Keep fingers away from the loop when testing. The object is to get the loop excited by the mobile so that it sparks across the gap. This may need the orientation of the coil to be adjusted with respect to the mobile.
Note that the loop length is critical and you may need to adjust the wire length. [In the lab a variable frequency signal generator would be used to get the loop size correct very quickly and the experiment is a matter of minutes].
First see if you can get a spark. Next see if you can increase the gap to 2mm and have it still spark. If you can you can get 2 mm you can readily explode petrol vapour.
However, if you need to convince some higher power that mobiles are dangerous and thus wish go the extra mile to demonstrate it, I suggest you use a 10mm or so thick Perspex container (tube) large enough not to crowd the loop. Test the loop inside that, and adjust the loop if necessary. Then, WITH PROPER SAFETY PRECAUTIONS, put the required number of drops of petrol into the Perspex container, put on a loose lid, stand back and show that you can fire the petrol/air mixture.
Even 1 mm gap should do it depending how you made the loop ends.
Finally, in regard to mobiles being low power, remember they pulse the power and the pulse power is higher than the average by something like 20 times -- again I may be a bit out of date with the 20 figure. I dropped out of their design during the prototyping stage. And my guess as to pulse power is that it is probably about 2-3 watts. More than enough to excite the loop. We shall see.
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Nothing interesting on TV last night Buzbee?
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Good to see Dereksn51 ! ,A good approach to the problem. If I had had the time, I would have posted something similar. I believe there is a theoretical and a real risk, albeit with a very low probability of ignition. Red hot cats igniting a petrol spill are probably a geater risk, and this doesnt seem to happen very often! I will probably continue to leave my on when visiting a petrol station, just lazy, fingers heavily crossed.
pmh (was peter)
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Speaking as someone with over 20 years experience in RF design (boy that's depressing) then I can only re-state that the battery shorting issue is not the prime concern; it is ignition of vapour by the RF field generated when a mobile transmits.
In terms of output power then GSM mobiles are all between 1 watt and 2 watts peak output power; the average power will be lower by a factor of 8. (apart from GPRS; when the average can be a factor of 4 rather than 8).
The networks will be optimised to keep mobile transmit power as low as possible, to extend battery life & reduce interferance in the network, so will only be transmitting at full power when absolutuely necessary to keep the call going.
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Sorry DD,
that's not how it works - the risk of the spark is because there is a voltage difference between the two terminals of the battery and, as long as the battery is charged, it is capable of causing a spark in short-circuit conditions, whether or not there is anything else drawing current from the battery.
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In the interests of Science I shall fill in the gaps in Buzbee's experiment:
Mobile frequencies: transmit 880MHz - 915MHz (receive 925MHz to 960MHz) and 1710MHz - 1785MHz (receive 1805MHz to 1880MHz)
Mobile phone power maximum burst power is 1W for 1800 phones (class one) and 0.8W for 900 phones (class 5) Higher power classes exist for 900 phones in the GSM specifications but are not used. Whilst in use a phone transmits for 0.546ms in every 4.615ms (for a standard 2G GSM phone) giving a maximum average power per frame of 0.12W (usually less as the basestation can reduce the mobiles power level)
Maybe I'll have a go later in the lab.
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From what I remember petrol requires a spark to ignite. Pouring petrol on a very hot piece of metal i.e. catalyst, turbo etc is not sufficient to cause an explosion. This was demonstrated a few years ago by Top Gear when they investigated car fires. Petrol was poured on to a hot exhaust manifold and there was no ignition. They found that brake fluid does ignite on contact with a hot surface and this may be responsible for the ferocity of some car fires.
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Surely average power is irrelevant. Peak power is what will generate the spark induced in a coupled tuned circuit. What common objects are likely to be of the correct size to create a resonant circuit at these frequencies? My first guess is a Coke can! Possibly a metal pull security seal ring on a glass jar of baby food? This would then have a potential gap in it?
Spamcan61 can probably provide the answers.
Who has got the sacrificial Lab?
pmh (was peter)
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Thanks for the power/frequency info. I remember doing work at 1800 megs and my figure above was supposed to have been 1800 000 000 but I missed off a zero.
Does the 4.615ms include the listening period of the TDM ?
The interesting bit of the experiment is, can the spark be produced and at what range can it be sustained.
Hope for some feedback.
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Looks like 4 transmit and 4 receive slots with the base station hogging 1 for the control. Leaving 3 mobiles per cell, if I get that right.
Unless there is some way the base station is able to use the mobile\'s slot/s with a bit of extra code. In which case you get 4 mobiles per cell -- just rambling until someone clears that up.
On another note, the loop is a good subject for a PHD for some up and coming bright student --- not me!
Power/energy stored when sufficient to produce a spark devided by the loop Q equals energy required from mobile. Field from mobile times capture area of loop gives power captured. That field/power MUST be supplied by the mobile --- I had better go quiet else someone here is going so see that there is nothing on TV for me.
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Dangers of using your phone in a service station, increase as your concentration deminishes, and you stick the nozzle in your ear and the phone into your petrol tank.
Seriously last week I was filling up when some stupid old female threw her fag end from her car as her husband paid for fuel, it landed red hot on the back of my hand that i was using to fill up!
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