City Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
Is the new City Rover doomed to fail?

I think so. Dated, not that cheap and built in questionable quality cirucmstances.

City Rover - Doomed to fail? - No Do$h
I'll hold the door open so 3500S can come in unhindered.....
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
I get worried that a lot of motoring journalists will say the same thing - i.e its MG Rovers saviour, and as such will feel obliged to report it as being a good car, when it may in fact be not that great. I hope it is good because i want MG Rover to succeed, but i dont agree with liking a car just because its british or is needed to save a british company. If its good it deserves praise. If its poor then then it deserves no saving. We would jsut be kidding ourselves.

I suppose whatever the press say it will have to sell, and as such i'm judging it now not only on the basis of all the things i've read, but its looks, and it is hard to be positive when it quite obviously looks dated.

HJ, whats your current view of the looks?
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - v0n
i dont agree with liking a car just because its british or is needed to save a british company

But it's not British, it's Indian, and it was arranged that way, to make it as cheap as possible. However, with the lowest price of £6,495 for most basic, raw version it's not even competitive. Fiat city cars start at £3999, for close to 6.5 grand one can pickup new Almera, and I think we all agree there is no comparison...
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - 3500S
Dated.

Indica V2 is a relatively new platform, younger than the Polo and Punto platforms. In terms of design, it's an Italian design contracted from the IDEA Institute of Turin.

Not that cheap.

It's largest than a Lupo (more Punto sized) for the price of a Lupo. For 1.0L money you get a proven 1.4L engine instead, also the levels of trim and options available are all extensive for the money. It could easily be cheaper, it is thought each CityRover costs between £800-1000 to manufacture and ship to the UK.

Built in questionable quality cirucmstances.

The TATA Pune plant is the ex-Nissan Adelaide works shipped over once Nissan closed the plant. The plant is practically new (in plant terms) and would easily compare with the more modern facilities in Europe. The TATA workforce are Nissan trained and JIT manufacturing process figure extensively during manufacture which is not to be underestimated reporting high quality standards and also good productivity. TATA is also a Mercedes sub-contractor for painting MB's destined for Asia. It holds the highest quality ratings for MB outside of Germany.

Also, in the Indian market where there is substantial choice, tough driving conditions and an informed consumer, this is one of only two cars in India that have a waiting list; the other car being the Mercedes S-Class. It's been in the Top 10 of cars sold for the last four years.

As far as MGR are concerned, on the projected volumes which I think are 20,000 a year for the whole of Europe, it's easy to work out this car could add anything between £60-80 million on the bottom line for them. Which is a very handsome return on essentially doing very little.

These volumes I feel are quite pessimistic as these cars will go down well as second cars and also in Eastern Europe where cars tend to be small and poverty spec owning to lower earnings.

However, in the longer term, there are a number of concept cars TATA have that they are looking for a technology partner for and it would seem that MGR have been getting on very well with TATA's engineers drawing praise from Ratan Tata himself. TATA are a huge conglomerate with substantial cash resources.

Like it or not, this is likely to become more and more common, cars made in India and China.

As far as saying, it's doomed to failure, no-one's driven it and reviewed it. However, a few magazines have gone over the launch cars and were very complimentary.

Until that time, who's to say it won't be a success?
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - No Do$h
Phew, I can let go of the door now.

I have to agree with 3500S' sentiment. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - 3500S
Cheers, hope your arm doesn't ache.
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
Dated - sorry this is unargueable - IT LOOKS OLD! Just becuase the platform is new doesnt mean its already out of date in its appearance - inside and out.

As stated above - its isnt even that cheap. Nor as you say is it well specced for the money - at 6.5k it doesnt have power steering, 60:40 split folding rear seats, remote central locking and CD player, ABS

Question is, if you were paying between £6.5k and £9k would you buy one? - Dated design, poor spec, poor dealers, old technology, poor sense. At £6,500 it just seems like an over priced piece of old engineering. And just wait for the depreciation....
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - 3500S
Phoenicks, you haven't driven it nor seen it close up and I think it's a matter of perception from your point of view.

Also, remember the CityRover is a 5 door car, 1.4L that's the size of a Punto - for £6,500. For £6,500 you might get 55Bhp and 3 doors. This car is 85Bhp and 5 doors. That's a big difference costing what £1000 - £1500 more on other cars.

There is the PAS, 60:40 option for another £400 more. It's also a fairly substantial car, it has to be to cope with little more than mud tracks to large tarmac'd roads. Having the unfortunate experience of some less than sturdy cars in that sector, I'd value that more than a CD player.

So start looking at the price of mid-range, 5-dr city cars and then say it's expensive bearing in mind who exactly pays list price these days?

As for dated design, poor spec and poor dealers, etc, etc, etc... isn't that all a personal opinion? You're entitled to it but many car journalists have not been so forthcoming with the negatives on this car.

Everyone knows that once they get their mitts on it then is the time to write up.

Not even Rover is saying it's going to be class leading but a lot of people already agree in terms of engine, interior space, doors and spec, it leads the class for value for money.
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - blank
3500S

Thanks for supplying some facts as opposed to Brit-bashing rubbish!!

Andy
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
Well as already said - it cost nearly £1000 to make and ship. I know its cheap labour, but this cost will almost definitely be reflected in the materials used.

I'm under no impression that it will be cheap, probably more spacy, and basic. But the depreciation will be massive, compared to others in the sector due to its origin and perception.

Lets wait for the road tests, and then lets wait for the buying figures as you say. i dont expect to be surprised.
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - ajit
1: It hardly costs anything so it has not much to lose in terms of high depreciation

2: No one complains too much about shoddy plastics in French cars. The plastics of the indica are much improved

3: No one in India complains and they have already shown Daewoo, Peugeot the door for shoddy service

Let the hacks get at it. Autoexpress were far from scathing. Sometimes the empire does strike back !!!!!
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
1. 2 words - Perodua Nippa. Check out the price of a 3 yr old one.

2. Because the dynamics and looks compensate.

Would that be the same Autoexpress - famous for reviewing cars (along with Autocar) and proclaiming greatness for a)looking at pre-production cars b) just looking at the spec sheet c) looking at a picture d) never having properly road tested one?



City Rover - Doomed to fail? - googolplex
1. 2 words - Perodua Nippa. Check out the price of
a 3 yr old one.
2. Because the dynamics and looks compensate.
Would that be the same Autoexpress - famous for reviewing cars
(along with Autocar) and proclaiming greatness for a)looking at pre-production cars
b) just looking at the spec sheet c) looking at a
picture d) never having properly road tested one?



Phoenicks, I think you're in danger of putting egg on your face here...

Splodgeface
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - 3500S
Even with the Perodua's depreciation, it has a running cost of 13.7p a mile which is the lowest cost of any car available, that's CAP's figures too so fairly accurate I'd guess. It's also a 1.0L car priced at £4,999.

It's a fact that most small to supermini cars lose up to 50% of their value in 3 years (Alliance and Leicester figures not mine).

As for the quality of the materials, MGR are offering a 3-yr warranty and 12-years on the metal. They aren't exactly flush for cash so they must be confident this is a well-screwed together car.

As for the quality of the componentry, TATA make the steel for the City Rover, the engine is a tried and trusty Peugeot 1.4L 8v unit. As for plastics, one of the first comments made in the AutoCar report I have was that the quality was up to European standards.

As for the dynamics of a Peugeot, you are having a laugh. As the owner of 106XL for two forgettable years which included over a dozen trips to the less than brilliant garage. Dynamics it was alright but you can only enjoy the dynamics when you have the car. I think I'd rather take my chances with a City Rover any day.
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - neil
"As for the quality of the materials, MGR are offering a 3-yr warranty and 12-years on the metal. They aren't exactly flush for cash so they must be confident this is a well-screwed together car"...

Er, that's one explanation! I suspect if they offered a hundred year unlimited mileage warranty it wouldn't cost them any more... but not for the reason you suggest! (Think double glazing!)
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - Canon Fodder

I agree with you P - it's going to struggle.

I have a couple of rhetorical questions myself.....

1. What's the target market - old and grey, or young and trendy, cos those are the only two for a £6500 motor.

2. How does it fit in with the rest of the Rover range image-wise? Will MGF and 75 buyers be proud to share a badge with something so...er...frumpy [IMO obviosly]

It reminds me terribly of the Rover Metro - Arrrgghhh

CF
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - alex

Surely there must be a market for such a car like this which is simple, sturdy and with no complicated items which
could go wrong.

According to the Rover publicity blurb "CityRover is based
on an exceptionally robust platform that has been engineered to cope with some of the world's most demanding
terrain and operating conditions. ... tests on the notorious
MIRA Pave circuit have shown that CityRover has an
exceptionally strong and fatigue-resistant structure."

Top speed is 100mph with 0-60 in 11.9 seconds. But I do find the fuel consumption disappointing ... Rover
quotes CO emissions g/km of 167 with 28.5 mpg urban,
46.6 mpg extra-urban and 37.9 mpg combined.
City Rover - Doomed to fail? - 3500S
Hence the City Rover badge.

Just like Land Rover

Exactly for the same reasons in 2003 as in 1947.

Incidentally, upon release of the rewarmed Metro, it received very good reviews indeed, unfortunately, the people who re-engineered it never heard of NCAP......

As for the market, well I own a 75 and it doesn't bother me at all. As for who'll buy one, hopefully young and old alike either a primary means of transport or second car to ferry the kids and shopping around. Bearing in mind the second car market is the most value conscious, least image aware of all car markets. ;)
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - eMBe {P}
I have changed the sub-heading to "MG-Rover Doomed to fail?" I certainly hope not, for the sake of its millionaire private owners and poor workers.

The following is a snipet from the Times of last week ( but similar reports can be found in most UK national papers).

>>>> "Storm over £13m for MG Rover chiefs
A trust fund for top executives has received the cash as the firm loses £95m. Report by Dominic O?Connell.

MG ROVER?s Longbridge plant in Birmingham was strangely quiet on Thursday afternoon. Production of the company?s two smallest models, the 25 and 45, had been stopped, and only a trickle of workers came down the hill from the factory gates at the end of the day. ...
... The loss-making company had paid £12.9m into a trust fund for its five directors and other senior managers. ...
No mention was made of the fund a fortnight earlier, when Phoenix Venture Holdings, MG Rover?s parent company, sent each staff member a copy of its annual ?report to shareholders?. The report, an abridged version of the annual accounts, set out the company?s trading position ? it lost £95m, compared with £187m the year before, with the MG Rover car operations racking up losses of £111m, down from £175m. ....
The Phoenix directors ? John Towers, Nick Stephenson, Peter Beale and John Edwards ? had taken over the famous brand from BMW, the German car giant, for just £10. BMW had struggled to turn round MG Rover since buying it from BAE Systems in an ill-starred attempt to join the ranks of volume carmakers. In 1999, its last year in German ownership, MG Rover lost £786m. ...
... But it is understood that the main beneficiaries of the fund are not just the four founding directors and principal owners of Phoenix Ventures ? Towers, Beale, Stephenson and Edwards ? but also Kevin Howe, MG Rover?s chief executive. ....
... The Phoenix directors could also benefit from two other financial restructurings of the group. The car company?s profitable finance arm, MGR Capital, was bought in 2001 by the four founding directors and HBOS bank. It made £13.7m on a turnover of £33.3m in six months last year, and, if it had been retained within the Phoenix group, could have helped to offset group losses. ...
The four directors have also been granted £10m loan notes by Phoenix, which are paying them 6.5%, or 1.56 percentage points above the London inter-bank rate, whichever is higher. ....
...Industry experts say MG Rover?s fate now depends on how fast it burns up its remaining cash ...
... The development of a new medium-sized car to replace the ageing 45 series is also crucial, but here the company has suffered some hefty setbacks. ...
... TWR, which was MG Rover?s main engineering contractor for the new model, has been placed in administration ....." >>
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - matt35 {P}
eMBe,
Like many of the above comments I would hate to see another British car company go down.
But, when I read the article you quote, and other reports by financial analysts, I thought of a couple of things;
A) My letter to my MP 18 months ago asking about the morality of increasing pensions for MPs when 2000 of our local constituents were being made redundant with a bankrupt pension fund - I got a reply which I will not quote as I have been 'pink fluffy diced' enough already.
B) Would I buy a car from a company in financial trouble, when the Directors have arranged 4 Golden parchutes at £3.225.000 each - leaving the workers on the aircraft?
Not sure,I must sleep on this.
Matt35
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
Sorry 3500s but i think you\'re being terribly blinkered to the fact that this car does not have the makings of a very good car.

Its engine, as you say is \'tried and tested\'. For that i read \'old\'. It has terrible (for its size) emissions output and below average fuel consumption, highlighting the age of the design.


For strong structure and suspension, read old and unsophisticated. Great for indian roads. cyncial on british roads.

When you say its in demand in India, they dont have a whole lot of choice of cars. Whats the alternative - a Hindustan Ambassador! I agree, it is modern - if you live in india. Not in the UK.

The Perodua Nippa (which i feel it is most similar too) may have low running costs but it is still worth absolutely pink fluffy dice all after 3 years. About £1500 i believe. About 30% generally of its original value. terrible.

Rover will have to offer it with a 3 year warranty - They have a hard enough task already convincing the british public that its a sound buy. Imagine if it had a 1 year warranty. That will be marketing forces at work, not just believe in the construction. As you say it costs less than £1000 to build. It isnt going to cost a lot to put any warranty work right.

\'Incidentally, upon release of the rewarmed Metro, it received very good reviews indeed, unfortunately, the people who re-engineered it never heard of NCAP......

As for the market, well I own a 75 and it doesn\'t bother me at all. As for who\'ll buy one, hopefully young and old alike either a primary means of transport or second car to ferry the kids and shopping around. Bearing in mind the second car market is the most value conscious, least image aware of all car markets. ;)\' >>>

Firstly, yes the Metro did receive warm reviews, but then everyone figured out what a horrible little car it is. I think that is what will happen here. When the Rose tinted specs effect wears off, its true ability will become apparent.

Secondly, i\'ve never heard such rubbish as the 2nd hand car market is the least image aware of all car markets. Image (for which read perception as well) is the main driver for depreciation, and value, and in doing so the demands of the 2nd hand car market. Good image cars hold value full stop.

If you bought a 75 a thought \'stuff the depreciation\' then you have truely proved my point about you being blinkered. For the same price you could have bought an equal, if not better car that would keep at least another 20% of its value at the same age as a 75 (read BMW, Mercedes - hey even a Ford...)

I am totally neutral on the City Rover. I dont own a Rover, like some of their cars (25 GTI - very underated)but i am judging based on what i have read and seen.

You are biased of course, but i sense that Rover could bring back the 3 wheeler, give it a mahogany dashboard and a chrome nose piece and you would think its fantastic....
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - teabelly
I think there is quite a large gap in the market for a new car which isn't full of electronic rubbish that goes wrong and costs a fortune to fix. If this car costs £1000 to build then something even as large as a replacement engine shouldn't cost more than a few hundred pounds. . I think there could be a real winner in a car that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to run.

A car that works well on Indian roads will work well here as a lot of British roads are deteriorating to that kind of standard. This could be a car for students and old people. A cheap finance deal for students/young people and free servicing for OAPs and they would be flying out of showrooms! I can see the adverts with a British Bulldog now ;-)

Perhaps they ought to dust off Russ Swift too....

teabelly
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - 3500S
The fund is in-lieu of a pension fund which the directors had no access to. BMW as part of the deal provided the pension funding for the workers.

As for the rest of it, it's hardly rocket science and it's been reporting many times before in many different articles.

Furthermore, it wouldn't be reported in PVH report to shareholders because it owned by a separate company ran by those directors.

What the article also forgets to mention is that 40% of PVH share equity is held by the workforce.

Finally, these are private shareholders, not public as such, in terms of disclosure private limited companies are not required by law to enter into such detail.

However, there are two truisms in the report. Firstly, RD60 really is the make or break car. City Rover is a stop-gap designed to stem the cash burn of MGR.

Incidentally cash receipts grew last year to £311m and losses of the group were £87m. It certainly isn't desperate in terms of cash burn exceeding reserves in the short term but City Rover must contribute to reduce losses and RD60 must succeed and help turn MGR into profit. Certainly another disaster like TWR would put them in serious trouble.

My own observation is that they will get RD60 to production, however what MGR really need is engines and also a 25 replacement and that really is going to be tricky unless RD60 does well at least a top 10 seller I reckon.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - king arthur
I think before you can ask whether this car is doomed to failure, you would have to really define what you mean by "failure".

Not to turn a profit? Hardly possible, it has cost them almost nothing to bring to market.

Not to take a large market share? It doesn't have to, they only plan to sell 100k units over five years.

Damage the Rover brand? I think that's why they've chosen the name "CityRover", to distance it from the other cars slightly.

It doesn't even have to sell as well as the Rover 100 in its final years, to start adding to MG Rover's bottom line. In that sense, it should turn out to be at least a reasonable success.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - ajit
When you say its in demand in India, they dont have a whole lot of choice of cars. Whats the alternative - a Hindustan Ambassador! I agree, it is modern - if you live in india. Not in the UK.


You can also choose the FiatPalio( a tougher Punto!), Fiat Uno, Hyundai Amica, Daewoo Matiz, Suzuki Alto/ Swift, Opel Corsa, Ford Ikon ( Fiesta notchback). We have global competition in India.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - 3500S
Firstly, Phoenicks I was talking about the second (more than one car per household) car market, not the second-hand market.

Secondly, a 75 is rated by Alliance and Leicester as one of the least depreciating cars in its sector only the BMW 3-series depreciated less over 3 years. It was also recently voted best secondhand family car by WhatCar.

Lastly, engines in small cars.

Ford Ka - started out in a Ford Anglia circa 1960s.
Polo 1.0L - only recently replaced after the previous one gave 30 years service.
Punto - The Fire 8v is again, 15 years old.
Cinquecento - started out in the 1960s.

I'm sure you are neutral about the City Rover, dated, old technology, poor dealership, unreliable, dubious manufacturing processes, terrible depreciation.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - SpamCan61 {P}
Trying to keep a vague relevance to the thread...why do people worry about percentage depreciation? Surely it's the actual monetary loss that matters; not % from original! My bank manager, for one, is only interested in pounds; not percentages.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - peterb
The second car market *is* image conscious. That's why people often buy Polos as a second car, despite dynamics and equipment which are inferior to a Fiesta, say.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
Totally agree Peter.

I am neutral to the CityRover. Unlike you 3500s who is so blatantly biased. Why would i not be neutral? I'm very open minded and will 'support' any car, until i feel otherwise.When the CityRover was announced i was open minded, and hoped it would be great. However i feel its a novel idea, that once people take off the rose tinted specs will realise its a very basic, dated old little car.

With any car, will keep an open mind until i see anything to contrary. Now i've seen the spec sheet, pictures (inside and out) and related it to what i know already, and have made my intial judgement. If i'm wrong i'll stand up and say so.

In this instance I'm just giving my thoughts. Just like everyone who supports the MG ZT V8 before its released. 3500S and other were saying how great it was from pictures and spec sheets. So why cant the opposite be used? Its almost like its not politically correct!!

MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Captain Alex Zippy O' Toole
With the greatest of respect I think the doubters here are looking at the CityRover from the wrong angle, namely that of a car lover/petrolhead (why are we on these forums after all?.....).

The truth is that there are an awful lot of people out there who don't have money to burn who just want a solid, reliable, dependable motor that doesn't go wrong very often and doesn't cost them an arm or a leg when it does.

They don't care about gadgets, immaculate handling and roadholding, swish styling or anything else.

As far as I can tell the CityRover looks OK, not stunning but certainly not a disaster. The specs are reasonble, the platform is proven, if Rover can sell it on low insurance, low running costs, reliability and cheap servicing/fixes - I think they could do well with it.

I know of many people who are sick to the back teeth with expensive servicing, rip off dealers, extortionate part prices, unreliability and the general wealth drain that a car can easily represent.

If Rover can address those issues, maybe CityRover can be a good earner for them.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Welliesorter
Trying to keep a vague relevance to the thread...why do people
worry about percentage depreciation? Surely it's the actual monetary loss that
matters; not % from original!


Exactly. I'd be far more concerned about a £20000 car losing 50 per cent of its value than a £7000 car doing the same. If something is cheap to begin with it doesn't have far to fall.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Phoenicks
Is it relative to your financial circumstances?
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - SpamCan61 {P}
I don't think it's relative to your financial circumstances : 50% of 20 grand is still 10 grand & 50% of 7 grand is still 3 and a half grand. There's plenty of rich folks don't like spending money ;-)
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Welliesorter
I don't think it's relative to your financial circumstances : 50%
of 20 grand is still 10 grand & 50% of 7
grand is still 3 and a half grand. There's plenty of
rich folks don't like spending money ;-)


I'd agree. Of course a few grand is not much money if you're rich and a lot if you're poor. I don't consider myself to be either but could have spent far more money than I did on a car if I'd been so inclined. It's not just rich folk who don't like spending money. I looked at the lower end of the market because I have other priorities.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Garethj
I'll say that I *hope* it succeeds and that MG Rover do too. As an automotive design engineer it sickens me that the country's only other volume car maker is LTI who make the Taxis.

However, when I look at the City Rover I wonder if it has more in common with the exciting new breed of modern small cars from Europe and the far East, or whether it's a Metro / Maestro for the new millennium..... I'm sadly waiting for them to release the "Clubman" version.

The car market as a whole is quite small, the British market is even smaller, then to narrow it down further doesn't seem like a way to make a lot of money (and let's not forget that's why they should be in business)

Gareth
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Welliesorter
It depends wht you mean by volume car maker.

Ford (which includes Land-Rover and Jaguar), Peugeot, Nissan, and Toyota all assemble cars in Britain and there may be others. I'm not sure whether Vauxhalls are still made here or are all re-badged Opels.

It's obvious that you mean British-owned but don't forget Rover only came back into British hands when BMW bailed out. Prior to that episode most of their cars were made as joint ventures with, or under licence from, Honda.

With the benefit of hindsight the early 90s (post Maestro/Montego but pre-BMW takeover) looks like a a golden era for Rover. They made cars to which Honda were willing to attach their own badge and gave their workforce guarantees of job security.

It could be that the present Rover 25 will come to be looked on as the last truly British volume car. As far as I know it wasn't developed with any extensive Honda input and was completed before BMW took over.

For more on the subject, see the unofficial history at www.austin-rover.co.uk/ I'm not a petrolhead or even a car enthusiast but I found this web site absolutely fascinating.

MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Garethj
Welliesorter, you assumed correctly that I mean British owned.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - eMBe {P}
.. you assumed correctly that I mean British owned. >>


Apologies for digressing off topic. But this concern about ownership can sometimes be misplaced.

Okay, in the case of Rover and Virgin, they are owned by private British citizens (although they may possible choose to take their wealth offshore to some exotic islands in the West Indies). For the rest of the world's publicly quoted companies, most shareholding are spread globally - mainly amongst Pension Groups and Mutual Funds. So if you have a pension or an ISA/PEP or unit-trust (with the exception of Companies like Boots who do not invest in the stockmarket), you and I will most likely have some stake in publicly quoted companies.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - eMBe {P}
clarification: I meant Boots Pension scheme which does not invest in stocks & shares.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Obsolete
Speaking as someone who has bought several cars in the same price range and spec. I would say that reviews in the motoring press will be very important. The Indian origins will I am sure not help the initial impressions of buyers. However, look at the Skoda Fabia. It had to fight against prejudices and sells well due to good reviews from the press and owners. I've looked at pictures of the Indian car and it doesn't look very appealing, but then in my view price and what you get are more important. I suspect a lot of people will put up with dull looks if it has other good points. The poor fuel economy struck me as a significant bad point. The five doors point is a good one, as many people want a small car for shopping and the school run, and 5 doors is very desirable if you have more than 1 child.

3500S makes a good case for it, but this all assumes that it gets a good write up. It is up against some strong competition. After all you can get a UK dealer supplied Ford Ka for £5,500 or even as low as £5,000 if you are lucky. UK dealer supplied old style Nissan Micras were also going very cheaply (~£5.5K) until recently.

I do think the pension 'scandal' is awful. I read about it in a weekend paper. It seems that ~£20million has been paid into a trust fund for ~5 directors. Now if that is not blatant snout in the trough-ism I don't know what is!
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - Pugugly {P}
The threat, I would say, is this new V/W Fox car.
MG Rover - Doomed to fail? - GTLK
Whatever, it will probably ride better than most Euro-hatches. Why have new cars now got ultra low profile tyres requiring loads of energy sapping PWS and giving a bumpy ride. Give me 70-section tyres, 15" rims any day. No bumpy rides after that. The indicar will be fine in that respect.

Whats the best riding car on the roads today - answer Mercs. Why? because they fit higher profile tyres. Try a volvo S60 - ridiculous 55-section tyres for a family car. I felt every pimple on the road the day I had one.Merc C200 65-section tyres - no problem; no pain.

 

Value my car