Sorry, just have to get this off my chest!
The other day, I was joining a dual carridgeway from a short slip road at the top of a hill. I was stationary with my indicator on. After waiting about 30 seconds for a safe gap in which to join, a lorry coming slowly up the hill flashed me out. I waited about 5 seconds to make sure it was clear and started pulling out. As I started pulling out, an Espace "came out" from over taking the lorry indicated and stared to pull into the inside lane. As I was already commited to joining the carridge way, I had no choice but to carry on. The Espace came within inches of hitting me and I got a blast of the horn.
What I want to know is, why do some drivers not THINK when they are driving instead of going onto auto pilot.
The junction is signposted futher about 200-300 yards before hand, with a warning triangle. This driver should have seen this and thus expected some form of hazard from this junction (if that makes sense!). I had to learn the hard way, when I had my accident about 2 years ago now. I went on a driver improvement course and it did me the world of good. I recomend that every driver should go on one of these courses.
Any thoughts?
Cheers,
OlafS
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Arrogance/ignorance on the part of the Espace driver. When they pulled out to overtake the lorry they had no idea what was in front of it. (based on your description).
Unfortunately no consolation if they put you in hospital....
Mind you, we get enough posts about people not returning to the inside lane at the first opportunity to guarantee some discussion on this one.
My personal approach is to avoid overtaking when approaching slip roads, pulling out to allow access if practical and slowing/accelerating as appropriate if not.
Would be rather boring if we all did it that way, mind.
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Espace driver should have made sure it was safe to carry out his lane change before doing so. A car driving up a slip road is obviously going to join the main carriageway, so they should have allowed for that and stayed out until past you.
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Had a similar experience joining the A40 nr Oxford at low speed due to an absurdly twisty slip road. I had enough of a gap to pull out, but the muppet I was pulling in front of accelerated to within 3 feet of my bumper despite lane 2 being completely clear.
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On many German autobahns there is a continuous white line between the lanes in locations where a slip road joins. This is to prohibit moving from the outside lane to the inside lane where new traffic is joining the autobahn. It works well and would have prevented the situation described by the OP.
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Aprilia: It's a nice idea and might work. I have had the same problem as the original poster.
I sometimes have problems when wishing to overtake a car in lane 1, lane 2 is empty, and there is a stream of high speed nose to tail traffic in lane 3. I signal for a few seconds to give lane 3 cars a chance to see me, then check mirrors and move out. All too often some muppet in lane three starts a lane 3 to lane 2 undertake manouevre at 90 mph after I have started and without signalling. It can be quite frightening. There's also the morons who start indicating after they start a manouevre and indicate for one second only. It's too often all about how to reach the destination in one piece.
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Good idea - presumably it would also stop those who dive straight out into the outside lane immediately as it's their rightful place (resists temptation to mention drivers of a particular manufacturer's products).
But then, who bothers about solid white lines at junctions?
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On many German autobahns there is a continuous white line between the lanes in locations where a slip road joins. This is to prohibit moving from the outside lane to the inside lane where new traffic is joining the autobahn. It works well and would have prevented the situation described by the OP.
>>
The same system is used in South Africa.
At least we rarely have pedestrians wandering across the lanes as is regularly seen there every day.
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Mind you, we get enough posts about people not returning to the inside lane at the first opportunity to guarantee some discussion on this one.
I hope not ND. Nothing wrong with moving back in at the first opportunity, but when someone else is joining that's not an opportunity to move back in.
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Judging by the previous thread on this subject (see my reply to PDC lower down) it's not as stright forward as we may think I'm afraid.
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how about this -
stopped to let somebody out of a side road this morning.
when she waved 'thank you' I saw she was holding a cup of tea/coffee in her hand, which, while still driving, she swapped to her other hand while she took a call on her mobile.
She was still holding one or other a couple of hundred yards later when she drove straight across a mini-roundabout oblivious of the Fiesta already on the roundabout she should have given way to.
She was last seen, phone glued to ear, joining the M61 N'bound at J6, so if there were any accidents this morning involving a pug 206, I can take a guess who it was
Bora - what Bora ?
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probably a whittle-le-wooder
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wasn\'t a black 206cc was it, with a private plate spelling ANG?
Friend from Bolton would be using that junction, and she is a pink fluffy dice for steering with knees while smoking and talking on phone.
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Nope... green 206, 51 reg. - she's not changed cars recently has she ?
Bora - what Bora ?
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Only from a 106 Quicksilver to the 206cc. Girl racer at 36!!!
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At rush hour in the Bristol area, the junctions for the M4/M32 get quite busy and a great deal of care is essential. It is not uncommon that traffic leaving the M4 for the M32 backs up down the slow lane. Not in itself a problem until some berk in an Escort decides to transfer from the middle lane to the slow. No spaces of course, he just stopped for a gap to appear, unfortunately for him the HGV close behind, came bearing down at speed, tyres smoking, horn blaring and a very annoyed driver.
I had the pleasure of sitting there whilst this lot happened next to me. Not the best place to be when a HGV looks like flattening a car and all those around them.
Sadly it is not uncommon.
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covering 40k per year i see this every day, it amazes me that people can't see the consequence of their actions.
I signal to move out to the faster lane to over take a lorry and some berk in the outside decides to pull in, ignoring the indicator signal from my car. Its a good job I was taught how to use a mirror as the guys behind don't know how to look forward. All i can say is, WAKE UP! and if you can't hand your licence in before you KILL some one.
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Situation :
Travelling in middle lane on M62, passing the slip road for Junct 17. Motorway passes under big roundabout. Slip road is quite a steep gradient. Road conditions nice and dry, 16 00 hrs, full visibility.
Nearside lane full of slow moving heavies. Mid lane full of cars doing 70 mph, not much space between. Nothing in outside lane.
Observe fast car coming down the slip road. He slips into space between two heavies, going too fast already, realises that he is blocked, swerves into centre lane. That is where I am. Having seen him coming down I was fortunately alert, and did the 'Elk' manouvre. Was pleased to note that the Renault Laguna survived it. My workmate, in the passsenger seat joined me in having a fit of the vapours. He said to me, "You have just prevented two funerals and a bye election". (He was a local councillor).
The driver of the other car did not react much, just made space to allow me back into the middle lane and stayed behind us until he turned off
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So how do other backroomers deal with joining busy motorways, dual carriage ways etc?
I always aim to achieve the maximum speed for the road on the slip road because I can then slow the car to the speed required to fit in with the traffic flow. Braking is far more effective than accelerating to match if you are going too slow.
For the past year I had to join the clockwise M62 from the M602 from Salford. Very close to this entry slip there is an exit for Worsley, which means a lot of vehicles in lane 1 not prepared to move into lane 2 to give way. This meant that those attempting to join at 40 mph were going way too slow and would often end up almost stationary waiting to join because they couldnt accelerate quickly enough to fit the gaps. My tactic was to hold way back behind the 40mph joiner, and accelerate using the space I had left.
I don't advocate leaping straight into lane 3 btw.
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I must say on on the twice- or thrice yearly occasions when I visit GT Britain I find the joining of motorway traffic a vexed question and an often exhilarating experience I could do without.
Where I live driving standards make yours look like choirboys on day trip to heaven, but one thing we do have which makes sense to me is about 3-400 meters of huge plastic moveable divider blocks rather like giant lego bricks separating the feed lane from the others. Thus joining drivers can get up to speed reasonably safely but at the same time no one can carve his way straight across all lanes as I see in UK. He is forced to keep his station in the slow lane before finding his way into one of the others, by which time he has achieved pace with the main flow. I think this is not such a bad idea and is lo-cost because no alterations of any kind have to be made to the road.
The Philippines culture is such that if you don't want someone to do something you don't just publish the Highway Code, suggest they read it then ask nicely for them to be a thoughtful and considerate driver, they have to be physically made to conform!
Ever seen 15" high speed bumps with no advance warning? Hit one of those if you don't know it's there and that usually has an effect which is anything but calming but very effective!
Ah well as I like to say our women are beautiful and Asia's finest beer is always cold.
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[tedious drivel deleted. If that\'s the standard you are capable of posting at, then best you find somewhere else to be. M.]
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[deleted as no longer relevant. Trust that is not an issue. M.]
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[deleted as no longer relevant. Trust that is not an issue. M.]
Far from it, Mark. No problem!
Cheers
Rob
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There certainly is a lot of very poor driving out there - some of it accidental but much of it deliberate I\'m afraid to say. How many times have you seen someone deliberately speed up and close a gap just to stop someone else entering it?
How many times have you seen someone scream up behind another driver and intimidate him/her out of the way ? The problem with all these judgements we make about what\'s safe and what isn\'t are subjective. What we all need to do is remember we don\'t know the mindset or capabilities of those around us and as such we need to exercise caution.
You may well feel safe doing something that would scare the hell out of the next guy. You may feel you know what you\'re doing but how can those around you know you\'re in complete control and do they share your view that it\'s safe ?
I\'ve said it many times here but it\'s worth remembering that we don\'t exist and act in isolation! IMO a very big part of being a good driver is anticipating/ allowing for the actions of others, being aware of what\'s going on around you and responding appropriately. Err on the side of caution when dealing with other motorists - they might just do something entirely unexpected - and don\'t act in such a way that your actions might cause another driver to panic and thereby cause and accident.
I can imagine conversations like this happening all over the country:-
\"I was doing 85 on the motorway and came up behind this guy in the outside lane who just wouldn\'t move over even though I had my headlights on. When I got closer I could see he wasn\'t even bothering to check his rear view mirror! I flashed him a few times but eventually had to undertake him or I\'d have been late for the football match\". Who\'s really at fault here and how many accidents are caused by this sort of behaviour ?
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Hear hear V!
not to mention >> www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs/3rdparty.htm
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not to mention >> www.ridedrive.co.uk/tipoffs/3rdparty.htm
Hmm, not sure I agree with the moral of that one (see the link for details), FiF. They seem to imply that any overtake is a bad thing.
Just this evening I was on the A605 on a NSL section with good visibility for half a mile ahead. The car in front was doing about 35-40. As always when considering an overtake, I dropped back to allow room to increase speed smoothly and safely whilst giving ample time to show my intended manouvere with my indicator. It also gives a better view of the road ahead. All clear, so proceed.
As the nose of my car came level with the rear bumper of the slower car, they braked violently. Whether this was because they were unaware of my presence (unlikely as it was 7:00pm and I had my headlights on) or an expression of displeasure at my audacity is unclear. If the latter, I fail to see how braking heavily can add to the safety of the situation. What is clear is that on completing the overtake, indicating back in at a safe distance, I was welcomed with a belt of full beam.
Now was I wrong? Were they? Certainly the manouvere was completed without anyone heading into the ditch. I would like to think that had I been unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident further up the A605 (where people seem to wait for the unsafe bits to overtake), the police attending would take a little more from the physical evidence than from a statement from an emotionally involved thirdparty.
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Hmm, not sure I agree with the moral of that one (see the link for details), FiF. They seem to imply that any overtake is a bad thing.
ND, Surely they make it quite clear that for 10 minutes the individual's driving definitely leaves something to be desired.
Surely in making the comment above you are taking completely out of context the final sentence which begins "Every person you overtake....." That sentence in particular could have been written more clearly I agree.
I would suggest that reading the other tips linked on that page especially the overtaking ones would put any concern you have to rest on the site attitude to that manouevre.
The response you got on your overtake is increasingly common unfortunately. Numpties eh!
So I take it you don't agree with the concept of 3rd party perception then, fair enough, no problem.
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Surely in making the comment above you are taking completely out of context the final sentence which begins \"Every person you overtake.....\" That sentence in particular could have been written more clearly I agree.
So I take it you don\'t agree with the concept of 3rd party perception then, fair enough, no problem.
:o)
Well spotted!
I chose to emphasise that remark in an out of context manner as all too often you see such remarks seized upon by those seeking to make their point. That said, you only need to overtake two less confident/competent drivers and there is a majority of those that would stand against you as witnesses.
3rd party perception stopped me being a total moron (only a part time one these days) some time back. I think.
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I would like to think that had I been unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident further up the A605 (where people seem to wait for the unsafe bits to overtake), the police attending would take a little more from the physical evidence than from a statement from an emotionally involved thirdparty.
I would like to think that in *any* accident, the police attending would distinguish between facts and a witness's personal opinions on the standard of driving, and disregard the latter unless the witness happens to be a highly trained and qualified expert who was not in any way involved.
We all have opinions on each others' driving, but those opinions do not belong in a court or prosecution except from someone who a court would accept as an impartial expert witness in the field.
GJD
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"Who's really at fault here and how many accidents are caused by this sort of behaviour ?"
By not moving over? I'd say quite a few.
1) The guy is obviously oblivious to his surroundings, a dangerous state to be in in the outside lane of a fast road
2) Even if he was only centre lane hogging, he would probably be causing bunching in the outer lane, which is one of the largest reasons for m'way multiples
3) Or maybe he was taking the law into his own hands. "I'm travelling at the speed limit, no-one should want to overtake me". Rightly or wrongly, this might induce road-rage style driving to pass him. And he might even block attempts to undertake, in his self-righteousness. I've seen it happen...
Now who's at fault?
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I agree with smokie. The relentless anti-speeding message is such that it's hardly surprising that many drivers consider the velocity of their vehicle to be the only measure of safe and competent driving.
If I come across some half-wit persistently blocking the outside lane when not overtaking slower traffic, I don't particularly care whether it's through an astounding lack of awareness or a desire to act as my unsolicted moral guardian - either way, they are certainly incompetent, possibly hazardous, and I'd prefer not to travel behind them.
This being the case, if they I'll happily zip round using the empty inside lane that they prefer not to utilise, and be on my way without suffering any pangs of consicence whatsoever - any more than the 90%+ of drivers who exceed the archaic motorway limits as a matter of routine.
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I was once guilty of bad driving, no really !
On a moonless night on an unlit bye road I stopped at a give way sign to look over my left shoulder for oncoming traffic on the 'major'road. Seeing nothing, I proceeded into the carriageway. Then a car overtook me at a very fast rate, drew in front and did an emergency stop. He did not quite stop, but did it twice. I suppose that it was " Teach him a lesson". I asked my back seat passenger, "Where did he come from?", he replied, "Didn't you see him?". The following day I passed the same place in daylight and saw that, from the driver's seat, the view of the major road at the give way sign was completely blocked by a huge tree.
I avoided that road next time.
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