Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Hi,

I was servicing my car at the same garage for 3 years and had my Mot's done with them.
I had a situation recently where I was going over a bump and something popped and car uncontrollably went on to the oncoming traffic. Luckily it wasn't a busy street otherwise I wouldn't be here now.
RAC and mechanic told me my car should have never passed an Mot. Car has badly corroded rear arms, which snapped and caused the rear axle failure, repairs cost £800-900.
Now, on my MOT advisories it says:
Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material Nearside Rear[1.1.11(c)] and Brake pipe corroded, covered in grease or other material Offside Rear[1.1.11(c)].
The problem that caused the incident wasn't mentioned on my Mot's. Can I do anything about this?

I have pictures, however unable to attach to my post.
Thank you for your help

Edited by Aleksa on 01/03/2021 at 15:12

Please help- MOT negligence? - jp2021

When was the MOT , and when did the incident with the failed arm occur?

If very close together I would go back to the garage and ask if they would like to repair it fo before you contact VOSA . If the MOT was ages ago then I think you may have to swallow it .

What is the car make/model /age?

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Thanks for replying to my post. MOT took place on 20.11.2020, slightly over 3 months ago. The incident happened on Friday 26.02.2021.

Car is not the newest one it's a Suzuki Alto Sz3 2009, however when I go to the garage I expect them to look after and advise me if anything's wrong. At least if I knew the faults I would of not left it without a fix.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Andrew-T

I thought the purpose of an MoT was to find whether - in the opinion of the tester - the vehicle should be roadworthy for 12 months. It is clear that this one wasn't, but I guess it is unlikely that the imminent failure was obvious. It's easier to spot gradual wear than a part which may be developing hidden cracks, which is possible in a 12-year-old car.

I guess you have been to an unthorough tester, rather than an over-zealous one advising serious, perhaps unnecessary, repairs.

Edited by Andrew-T on 01/03/2021 at 16:59

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Thanks for your reply Andrew T, I absolutely agree with you that it is a purpose of the MOT. I have added some pictures, in my opinion it's hard not to notice the corrosion on the arms/around arms.

Please help- MOT negligence? - jp2021

When was the MOT , and when did the incident with the failed arm occur?

If very close together I would go back to the garage and ask if they would like to repair it fo before you contact VOSA . If the MOT was ages ago then I think you may have to swallow it .

What is the car make/model /age?

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

[url=postimg.cc/3WZpdwzq][img]i.postimg.cc/3WZpdwzq/IMG-20210226-WA0003.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=postimg.cc/MXwV6B3R][img]i.postimg.cc/MXwV6B3R/IMG-20210226-WA0006.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=postimg.cc/H8Ty6G83][img]i.postimg.cc/H8Ty6G83/IMG-20210226-WA0013.jpg[/img][/url]

Edited by Aleksa on 01/03/2021 at 17:46

Please help- MOT negligence? - Avant

Does anyone have a means of knowing whether these links are safe?

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Apologies, I have tried to add the pictures through the post images website to support my post. Is there is any other way to do that? Thanks

Please help- MOT negligence? - Brit_in_Germany

They seem to be OK.

Please help- MOT negligence? - kiss (keep it simple)

That looks like pretty severe and well established rust to me. A quick poke with a screwdriver should have revealed how bad it was.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

I agree, it looks appaling. I appreciate it's an old car, however it should have been acknowledged and reported.

Please help- MOT negligence? - brum

They seem to be OK

Ugh......what ugly pictures, sent me right back to the 1960's

Now perhaps some will stop crowing on about Japanese quality (doubtful it will)

Yes the MOT tester should probably have seen that it was an imminent failure, however because more than 3 months have elapsed, you've run out of time, but you could always try submitting a complaint (see below}

If you think your car has passed when it should not have

You’ll need to complain to DVSA if you do not think your car should have passed its MOT. Fill in the complaint form and send it to DVSA within the time limits below.

DVSA will contact you within 5 days to discuss your complaint.

If DVSA decides to recheck your vehicle, you’ll need to arrange a date. You will not need to pay the test fee again. They’ll send you an inspection report listing any vehicle defects.

Time limits

If your vehicle passed, you need to complain within:

  • within 3 months of the MOT if it’s a corrosion-related problem
  • within 28 days has passed for other defects

Edited by brum on 01/03/2021 at 18:24

Please help- MOT negligence? - nellyjak

Now perhaps some will stop crowing on about Japanese quality (doubtful it will)

Not a chance...lol...

that's just neglect, irrelevant of make.

Please help- MOT negligence? - bathtub tom

I understood that an MOT is only to prove a vehicle is safe on the day of the test. I suspect the OP won't get anywhere by appealing to VOSA. The garage however may have some case to answer to the OP.

Please help- MOT negligence? - bolt

I understood that an MOT is only to prove a vehicle is safe on the day of the test. I suspect the OP won't get anywhere by appealing to VOSA. The garage however may have some case to answer to the OP.

So did I think that, but those pics look like its been like it for longer than a year and should have been picked up year before in my opinion?

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Thank you brum, that is really helpful. I know that my car is not worth much, but it doesn't mean that garage can just neglect my safety.

Please help- MOT negligence? - ExA35Owner

There is a second argument here, that the driver of a car has a duty to ensure it's roadworthy; that duty applies to every journey. So if you have an MOT pass, but the car deteriorates such that it is unroadworthy, it's your responsibility to check and to get it fixed.

The MOT test checks that the car is roadworthy at the time of the test. Nothing more.

Please help- MOT negligence? - edlithgow

There is a second argument here, that the driver of a car has a duty to ensure it's roadworthy; that duty applies to every journey. So if you have an MOT pass, but the car deteriorates such that it is unroadworthy, it's your responsibility to check and to get it fixed.

The MOT test checks that the car is roadworthy at the time of the test. Nothing more.

This is true, but also not entirely realistic given the nature of the punter population.

Some of them are little old ladies who only use the car to go to church on Sunday, after all.

And the odd track day, of course.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

I am a woman and I have no idea what exactly I need to check also I am unable to kneel or lay on the road and check underneath a car where I live. I blindly trusted my garage, but I didn't expect this twist

Please help- MOT negligence? - catsdad

I think that outside of groups like this 90% of drivers never check underneath their cars. Even those of us who do probably don’t have it up on ramps, with lights to see what’s going on. Rust on heavy untreated components is often just on the surface but this is not the case here.

For severe corrosion like this your garage ought to have reported it.

Whether you want to take it further is up to you but the advice seems to be that your options are limited.

I’d be more concerned about the overall rustiness of the car as its unlikely that severe corrosion is confined to those failed components. You might want to get it checked over by a garage you trust and then decide if it needs further safety work on the structure. Those of us old enough to remember the prevalence of rust in cars in the past know it’s a never ending fight once it gets hold. It might even be time to get rid of it if it’s really badly affected elsewhere.

Sorry to add to your woes.

Edited by catsdad on 02/03/2021 at 08:21

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Fair enough. Car is old that's a fact, however I had to be aware of the extreme corrosion , even if they just said: look, car is really corroded I would advise you to get rid of it as it isn't safe anymore. If they had said that, I would get rid of my car. The safety of me, my family and road users is first.

Car is unusable anymore and cannot be moved...

I've contacted the Trading Standards as I missed the deadline for MOT appeal deadline with DVLA.

I think I need to get more knowledge about the cars in case someone decides to neglect my current /future essential car checks, at the moment I lost the trust.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Andrew-T

I am a woman and I have no idea what exactly I need to check also I am unable to kneel or lay on the road and check underneath a car where I live. I blindly trusted my garage, but I didn't expect this twist

Aleksa, no MoT tester will issue a written guarantee that if he passes your car, nothing on it will fail for 12 months - it's not realistic or fair, as he can't guess what you are going to do with it. All he can do is a thorough check following the official guidelines. It seems your last tester may have been hasty, but testers will vary, and they can have off-days or his phone may ring or ....

All you can reasonably check would be the items which are probably listed in your car's user manual - tho I suspect those give less info than they used to, because cars are less DiY-able, and it makes more work for the garages if they do it.

Please help- MOT negligence? - pd

I suppose it is difficult to know what it looked like to the MOT tester.

They can't "poke it with a screwdriver" or indeed anything else - they can only look at it and have to determine whether surface rust or right through.

Was it not even an advisory? I am surprised a MOT tested did not at least try and cover themselves a bit.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Terry W

I can understand why you are upset.

But you need to ask yourself what you are hoping to achieve by putting energy and emotion into this - eg: exact revenge for their apparent negligence - extract cash, damage their reputation, make them feel bad etc.

It may be better to put the whole thing behind you and get on with life.

Just my view - others may differ.

Please help- MOT negligence? - John F

I can understand why you are upset.

But ............

..........It may be better to put the whole thing behind you and get on with life.

I agree. As far as I know, no garage will take any steps to either prevent or halt the progress of corrosion during a 'service'. It is up to the owner/keeper to inspect and deal with it, either themselves or by directing/contracting others to do so.

Please help- MOT negligence? - BPL

I agree. As far as I know, no garage will take any steps to either prevent or halt the progress of corrosion during a 'service'. It is up to the owner/keeper to inspect and deal with it, either themselves or by directing/contracting others to do so.

It depends what is agreed in the "service". Most people never ask. The more diligent may ask for "a good service" which means nothing. The manufacturer will have a service schedule with all the checks and intervals. Read and agree with the mechanic whats to be done and document it.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

No it wasn't on the advisories unfortunately.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Thank you all for your views & advise

Please help- MOT negligence? - sammy1

It does make you wonder what you are paying for when you put your car in for service as the lady says she has been completely in the hands of the garage for the last 3 years. If as she says there has been no prior notice of rust on service and MOT how is she expected to know the car is potentially unroadworthy. She has not said if the same staff has looked after the car but regardless of a service the last MOT should have flagged up corrosion.. Have you tried talking to the garage?

The car is 11 years old and I wonder if its life has been by the sea, a salty environment has been known to accelerate rust in cars. The part that broke may well have had a flaw in manufacture which could not have been spotted.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

It does make you wonder what you are paying for when you put your car in for service as the lady says she has been completely in the hands of the garage for the last 3 years. If as she says there has been no prior notice of rust on service and MOT how is she expected to know the car is potentially unroadworthy. She has not said if the same staff has looked after the car but regardless of a service the last MOT should have flagged up corrosion.. Have you tried talking to the garage?

The car is 11 years old and I wonder if its life has been by the sea, a salty environment has been known to accelerate rust in cars. The part that broke may well have had a flaw in manufacture which could not have been spotted.

It is considered a 'proper' garage, they fix & sell cars also do MOT's. I believe multiple mechanics checked and looked(or not) after my car, but I might be wrong.

When I rang they would not give me an email address where I can complain and insisted to do it over the phone which I refused. To be honest I am giving up, it's not worth it.

First owner was from Wales, it might be possible if it was near seaside.

Please help- MOT negligence? - kiss (keep it simple)

Maybe the MOT test doesn't allow it to be poked, but if I was the servicing garage as well I would certainly think it deserved a closer look bearing in mind that the OP had entrusted the car to my care.

Please help- MOT negligence? - bathtub tom

Depends on the OPs servicing garage. What if it's one of these fit quick tyre places?

Please help- MOT negligence? - bolt

Depends on the OPs servicing garage. What if it's one of these fit quick tyre places?

my niece had her Fiat done at a place like that and every time they failed it, 3 times, she got them to fix it and it failed again on the part they replaced.

after an argument from me they refunded half payment and she had to scrap the car due to the amount of rust underneath which they didn`t spot, or didn`t want to see, imo.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Aleksa

Depends on the OPs servicing garage. What if it's one of these fit quick tyre places?

my niece had her Fiat done at a place like that and every time they failed it, 3 times, she got them to fix it and it failed again on the part they replaced.

after an argument from me they refunded half payment and she had to scrap the car due to the amount of rust underneath which they didn`t spot, or didn`t want to see, imo.

It seemed to be a reputable garage, however I just remembered last time I had an MOT, there was a young lady waiting for her MOT done aswell. When they announced that she failed due to some parts were fitted incorrectly/had some trouble with it and blamed the 'other garage whoever had done it', the girl then said that her car was bought off them by her dad a year ago.

I was thinking to myself :hmm that's awkward...

I will let DVLA to do their job and for me it's not worth it doing much about. I had a shock and realisation that I could of killed my family. Don't want anymore stress right now.. Car is unusable and I will need to scrap it.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Andrew-T

Depends on the OPs servicing garage. What if it's one of these fit quick tyre places?

My second car is a 1994 Pug 306. Its previous owner missed one year's MoT and took it to a 'fit quick' place for the next one. They replaced enough parts to run up a bill of £1200+, and that was after a 'discount'. They can be very thorough, but that may not be the same as efficient of course ....

Please help- MOT negligence? - jp2021

Fit quick places fail cars on the stuff they can do at a quick profit, not what is actually needed for the benefit of the car and owner. Never go to one for an MOT

Please help- MOT negligence? - focussed

Post Image is a bona fide site - I've used it for years with no problems.

Please help- MOT negligence? - focussed

No excuses for the tester not failing this car with that corrosion damage three months before the components failed.

From the Mot inspection manual appendix A -structural integrity.

www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-priv...n

"The severity of corrosion in highly stressed components, such as steering and suspension arms, rods and levers, can be assessed by lightly tapping or scraping with the corrosion assessment tool.

In places that cannot be reached by the corrosion assessment tool, an alternative blunt instrument may be used.

A highly stressed component should be rejected if corrosion has resulted in serious reduction in the overall thickness of the material or has caused a hole or split."

The approved corrosion assessment tool:-

www.prosol.co.uk/product/mot-approved-hammer-corro...l.

Edited by focussed on 03/03/2021 at 08:58

Please help- MOT negligence? - Pablo el Diablo

I had my MOT done together with the service at the main dealer's garage. I will never make the same mistake again and leave them the car for the day. Some of the techs can't be trusted, but I believe it's industry wide problem. Luckily I got them caught on my dash cam, I believe DVSA is now investigating as I passed my evidence on to them. For 2 years they failed to do it properly, never jacked up the car to see underneath, unbelievable. It's possible same thing happened to you. PS. my video is now on Youtube for people to know. Unsure if I can share the links here as I'm new, but you can put Express MOT into search and it should appear.

Please help- MOT negligence? - bathtub tom

My last MOT was also done quickly. I had to sit in a waiting room with a mask on, so couldn't watch. I was told to wait a few more minutes after I saw my car drive out as the DVLA (or whatever) had a time constraint and weren't too happy if the test was done too quickly and my payment couldn't be processed too soon.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Miniman777

I had my MOT done together with the service at the main dealer's garage. I will never make the same mistake again and leave them the car for the day. Some of the techs can't be trusted, but I believe it's industry wide problem. Luckily I got them caught on my dash cam, I believe DVSA is now investigating as I passed my evidence on to them. For 2 years they failed to do it properly, never jacked up the car to see underneath, unbelievable. It's possible same thing happened to you. PS. my video is now on Youtube for people to know. Unsure if I can share the links here as I'm new, but you can put Express MOT into search and it should appear.

Absolutely appalling. I’ve used a small garage in the East Midlands and they are fair but thorough. Aside from not carrying out the required inspection, they are fiddling the test start and end times too. Is there a viewing area? Should be struck off.
Please help- MOT negligence? - Pablo el Diablo

Yes, I think there is. Thing is, my citroen had its service at the same time, so Mot and then service. I left the car in the morning as they told me it's going to take most of the day to do that plus safety recall check - cambelt. In the end MOT took them 6 minutes, engine oil change under 8 minutes. Shocking really if I was asked. They also put tap water as antifreeze on every service without checking coolant's strength. I will share a video soon.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Xileno

Please do not post any material including videos that could be in breach of the site's No Naming & Shaming policy. If in doubt please email moderators@honestjohn.co.uk before posting so we can review it first. Thanks

Xileno, moderator

Please help- MOT negligence? - skidpan

They also put tap water as antifreeze on every service without checking coolant's strength.

Surely you check the coolant level yourself as part of your regular checks between services/MOT's and top up as necessary.

In reality with a modern sealed cooling system there should be no loos uness there is an issue somewhere and that should be investigated, it will not fix itself. Topping up is just a bodge.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Pablo el Diablo

Well, I added 0,5L before the most recent service to avoid them having to do that. I'm not sure how normal adding 0,5L since last service 9000 miles ago is and I'm not sure they at citroen would even bother to investigate. I've done 200 miles since the service and fluid in the tank turned from clear (universal) to rusty brown, so I think flushing and replacing coolant will be a must at some point soon. I read an article at Auto Express about the benefits of servicing cars at main dealers and I literally started laughing. Worst you could do to your car really.I'm not sure about other dealers, but both citroen garages I've had a chance to try were equally bad. Aftersales director said topping up with water is normal and an industry standard if strength is checked , but I can't see those checks on my dash cam material.

Please help- MOT negligence? - skidpan

Well, I added 0,5L before the most recent service to avoid them having to do that. I'm not sure how normal adding 0,5L since last service 9000 miles ago is

Trust me, its not normal for modern engines to use any water. Cannot remember the last time I had to add any coolant.

Aftersales director said topping up with water is normal and an industry standard if strength is checked , but I can't see those checks on my dash cam material.

No its not. Any decent garage will use the correct pre-mixed coolant to ensure the existing and new are compatible and also to ensure the correct percentage is maintained.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Pablo el Diablo

Ok my video is now live on yt, if you follow my instructions few posts above you can see both.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Andrew-T

I've done 200 miles since the service and fluid in the tank turned from clear (universal) to rusty brown, so I think flushing and replacing coolant will be a must at some point soon.

If your coolant is rusty brown it shows that previous owner(s) have not bothered to ask for it to be changed. I don't know the age of your Citroen, but most 21st-century cars come with lifetime coolant (my diesel Pug still has most of its 12-year-old blue coolant) but before that, some Renaults did not even recommend changing, so many owners didn't, until the thick brown soup became inefficient.

Of course, if you dislike the idea of your techie only taking 8 mins to change oil, you could DiY and take as long as you like .... :-)

Please help- MOT negligence? - Pablo el Diablo

My citroen c4 is 15 -reg and I'm the only user from new, 45000 miles, serviced by main dealers only, still under extended warranty as it's 1.2 Puretech engine. I believe citroen factory fill cars with green/blue coolant.

Yes, I'm not scared doing that, as I was servised my Carina myself, but even Quick Lube in USA claim to be doing that in 15 minute, so I was surprised.

Please help- MOT negligence? - Big John

Well, I added 0,5L before the most recent service to avoid them having to do that. I'm not sure how normal adding 0,5L since last service 9000 miles ago is and I'm not sure they at citroen would even bother to investigate. I've done 200 miles since the service and fluid in the tank turned from clear (universal) to rusty brown

What coolant did you add yourself are you sure it was compatible? Some different antifreeze types shouldn't be mixed,

Going brown in 200ish miles (how do you know it's rust?) is not normal. Also using .5l of coolant is not normal.

I know on some VAG cars there has been as issue with some cars that have "silikat" bags in the cooling systems that are supposed to protect aluminium components - presume Citroen don't have anything similar? When/if that bursts it turns the coolant brown - and causes issues.

Edited by Big John on 05/04/2021 at 21:40

Please help- MOT negligence? - Pablo el Diablo

I used

CarPlan DCO101 Demon Cool 1Ltr which supposed to be mixing with all colours. I have never had any alarm urging me to add coolant or anything, 500ml was enough to reach just above Max line. There is some scaling on sides of the reservoir, I'm planning on going to independent garage they should have more experience with this, if they say it's not normal, do you know if this would be covered under warranty as I paid for another year. Of course the fluid is not disappearing over night like in my Carina 1.8 with blown gasket so it will be hard to prove anything and claim from warranty?

Puretech engines are mostly made of aluminum, but rust could be coming from waterpump bearings etc now when I know coolant contained more and more water being added over time by Main s****** specialists?

Citroen antifreeze spec is PSA B 71 5110 and from what I remember it was originally filled with the same colour antifreeze as

Motul Inugel 5110

Edited by Pablo el Diablo on 06/04/2021 at 22:25

Please help- MOT negligence? - Big John

RAC and mechanic told me my car should have never passed an Mot. Car has badly corroded rear arms, which snapped and caused the rear axle failure, repairs cost £800-900.

Back to the original post:-

This depends -

Many cars have rusty rear trailing arms etc as on most cars these are not rustproofed but made of thick metal so usually last for years. An MOT tester can only fail or pass a car on what can be seen on the day.

Edited by Big John on 05/04/2021 at 21:34

Please help- MOT negligence? - Paulsxf

Interesting. There is a Youtube chanel called Chops Garage who is a small car trader. Just had an Alto fail its MOT for the same thing. Nowhere near as bad as yours but needs a new axle. The brake pipes in that area were also badly corroded.

 

Value my car