Introduction of E10 fuels - Steveieb

Scheduled for September but I understand that it’s not without its potential problems for both petrol and diesel cars, especially the older ones.

what will be the alternative and will this mean changing to super unleaded and V power diesel?

Introduction of E10 fuels - RT

Scheduled for September but I understand that it’s not without its potential problems for both petrol and diesel cars, especially the older ones.

what will be the alternative and will this mean changing to super unleaded and V power diesel?

Using E10 in any diesel will wreck it!

B7 can be used in any diesel but B10 is a no-no for many - this list identifies the issue ACEA_B10_compatibility.pdf

Introduction of E10 fuels - Steveieb

So will there be two alternatives for diesel on sale ?

Introduction of E10 fuels - Engineer Andy

As I understand it, it will mostly affect certain petrol-engined cars designed around 2000-ish and older. Al makes must be fully compatible from MY2011.

check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.../

It said for my car and all other Mazdas that they are compatible from 2002. Some makes with older cars (like Ford - I looked up my Dad's car) are ok from 1992, except for the 1.8 SCI from 2003-07 (from the .gov website).

Things may be more tricky for grey imports. Non-compatible cars will either have to be scrapped, or use superunleaded petrol or special additives, if available.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 27/02/2021 at 19:42

Introduction of E10 fuels - edlithgow

Non-compatible cars will either have to be scrapped, or use superunleaded petrol or special additives, if available.

Are there "special additives" to address this issue?

Logically / technically you are trying to negate something (ethanol) that's been added rather than replace something that''s been taken away (as with lead substitutes in unleaded petrol.)

I'd think that might be difficult to achieve with additives.

www.orlandosentinel.com/os-xpm-2011-09-02-os-auto-...l

Seems to be an advert disguised as journalism.

Thus thin technically, but seems to be saying its a detergent that emulsifies and prevents water separation.

If that is true, its only addressing part of the problem

Edited by edlithgow on 28/02/2021 at 08:33

Introduction of E10 fuels - Metropolis.
As far as I know shell v power includes ethanol as well. I run my rover v8 on the premium stuff at Esso as it is (apart from some areas in Cornwall I think?) ethanol free. Mine is a 2004 but I bet it isnt compatible.
Introduction of E10 fuels - Metropolis.
From the Esso website, I hope this doesnt change!!

The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains up to 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 and 99 grade petrol).

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 and Synergy Supreme+ 99 ) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area, Scotland and NW England). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area, Scotland or NW England. The European standard BS EN228 covers the requirements for 0-5% ethanol unleaded petrol, the labelling requirement for zero % ethanol is E5 (as is up to 5%), a E0 label doesn’t exist. We understand that this is confusing if you are looking for zero % ethanol fuel, but as advised we can confirm that our Supreme Unleaded fuel supplied in areas except those listed (Devon, Cornwall, Teeside, Scotland and NW England) is ethanol free.

Our Synergy Fuels:

Diesel
Supreme+ Diesel
Unleaded
Supreme+ Unleaded
Supreme+ 99
Introduction of E10 fuels - edlithgow

That Esso spiel SEEMS to mean "If you have an older car in Scotland, tough luck Jock"

Odd that they can't produce a product to a consistent specification on a UK-wide basis, given that they are a multi-national mega-mob.

I suppose those "fringe areas" must be logistically inconvenient.

Not an issue in Taiwan yet, as far as I know (no big agribizniz lobby).

Introduction of E10 fuels - RT

That Esso spiel SEEMS to mean "If you have an older car in Scotland, tough luck Jock"

Odd that they can't produce a product to a consistent specification on a UK-wide basis, given that they are a multi-national mega-mob.

I suppose those "fringe areas" must be logistically inconvenient.

Not an issue in Taiwan yet, as far as I know (no big agribizniz lobby).

AFAIK the industry has accepted that up to 5% ethanol won't harm any petrol cars.

Edited by RT on 28/02/2021 at 07:14

Introduction of E10 fuels - edlithgow

That Esso spiel SEEMS to mean "If you have an older car in Scotland, tough luck Jock"

Odd that they can't produce a product to a consistent specification on a UK-wide basis, given that they are a multi-national mega-mob.

I suppose those "fringe areas" must be logistically inconvenient.

Not an issue in Taiwan yet, as far as I know (no big agribizniz lobby).

AFAIK the industry has accepted that up to 5% ethanol won't harm any petrol cars.

I would expect the uneven pattern with E5 alternatives to persist or get worse with E10, which I believe even "the industry" accepts may be harmful to older vehicles, not that "the industry" has much interest in avoiding harm to older vehicles anyway.

Rather the reverse.

Introduction of E10 fuels - nellyjak

Given the little bit of research I've done, it seems that my Toyota Estima V6 (1mz-fe) engine should be ok to run on E10 (it's used in the Camry and Lexus RX300 of the same 2003 vintage)...but it wouldn't be the end of the world if I had to go to Super-duper unleaded 97-99 octane...I don't do enough miles per annum for it to be a concern.

I assume you can mix the two fuels though..E10 and Super Unleaded..?

Introduction of E10 fuels - bathtub tom

There's not that many refineries in the UK. The only difference between the different companies fuels is the additives. I suspect the petrol you buy from shell/esso/texaco/sainsbury/tesco/asda/morrison et al all comes from the same refinery. Therefore if one super unleaded contains no ethanol, then it's probably likely they all don't in the same area.

I've only done 1K miles in the last year and my last two tankfuls have been Tesco super unleaded in the hope it is ethanol free to minimise any harmful effects.

Is there any simple way to detect ethanol in petrol?

Introduction of E10 fuels - Andrew-T

Is there any simple way to detect ethanol in petrol?

Drink some ? :-)

Introduction of E10 fuels - focussed

Is there any simple way to detect ethanol in petrol?

Drink some ? :-)

There is a crude diy test - this is from a USA aviation site.

(Ethanol has not been approved for adding to aviation gasoline fuel - go figure why we have to put up with it)

To determine if ethanol is in the gas:

  • On a test tube or olive bottle six or seven inches long, make a permanent line about two inches from the bottom.
  • Fill with water to this line, then fill the tube to the top with gasoline.
  • Cover the tube, agitate it, and let it stand.

The ethanol and water will mix and separate out together. If the water level appears to have increased, the fuel contains ethanol and should not be used. Ethanol percentages of less than 5% can sometimes give a reading below the line. Therefore, any deviation in the water line indicates the presence of ethanol and should serve as a basis for rejecting the fuel.

Edited by focussed on 28/02/2021 at 15:27

Introduction of E10 fuels - corax

I've only done 1K miles in the last year and my last two tankfuls have been Tesco super unleaded in the hope it is ethanol free to minimise any harmful effects.

It contains up to 5% bioethanol.

Introduction of E10 fuels - bathtub tom

It contains up to 5% bioethanol.

I think you'll find it MAY contain UP TO 5% bioethanol.

Introduction of E10 fuels - corax

1. I don't know where you've read that it may contain ethanol. Can you point me to your source?

2.As for the other part of your response, read my post again.

Introduction of E10 fuels - RT

1. I don't know where you've read that it may contain ethanol. Can you point me to your source?

2.As for the other part of your response, read my post again.

All grades of petrol MAY contain up to 5% ethanol without being labelled.- it's the law!

Doesn't mean they do but they can.

Introduction of E10 fuels - bathtub tom

I've only done 1K miles in the last year and my last two tankfuls have been Tesco super unleaded in the hope it is ethanol free to minimise any harmful effects.

It contains up to 5% bioethanol.

Looks like I wasted my money then, Do you know that for sure, or are you just assuming?

Introduction of E10 fuels - RT

I've only done 1K miles in the last year and my last two tankfuls have been Tesco super unleaded in the hope it is ethanol free to minimise any harmful effects.

It contains up to 5% bioethanol.

Looks like I wasted my money then, Do you know that for sure, or are you just assuming?

"up to" means anywhere from 0-5% - you'd need to ask the supplier what the % is.

Introduction of E10 fuels - dan86

I've only done 1K miles in the last year and my last two tankfuls have been Tesco super unleaded in the hope it is ethanol free to minimise any harmful effects.

It contains up to 5% bioethanol.

Looks like I wasted my money then, Do you know that for sure, or are you just assuming?

"up to" means anywhere from 0-5% - you'd need to ask the supplier what the % is.

It can vary from each delivery

Introduction of E10 fuels - corax

Looks like I wasted my money then, Do you know that for sure, or are you just assuming?

If you were filling up your car hoping that the fuel is ethanol free, I would not be using tesco super unleaded, as it's likely to contain at least some ethanol, being used partly as an octane booster. My old Forester turbo ran well on it, and turbos tend to run well on an alcohol mix fuel.

This is just an assumption, but when I filled up with momentum, I quite enjoyed the sweet smell, whether that was the extra ethanol content in it I don't know, but the standard petrol doesn't have that. It could have been the extra additives.

Does any company make it clear to the public whether a fuel is completely ethanol free? 0-5% isn't a definitive answer!

Introduction of E10 fuels - Metropolis.
Corax see my post above from Esso website
Introduction of E10 fuels - daveyjp

Whilst modern petrol vehicles shouldn't complain, it may not be suitable over the long term for petrol powered lawnmowers, chain saws etc.

At the very least ensure the tanks are drained and the engines run until the carb is empty before storing them for any length of time.

Introduction of E10 fuels - Theophilus

Whilst modern petrol vehicles shouldn't complain, it may not be suitable over the long term for petrol powered lawnmowers, chain saws etc.

Agreed- that's why I've been using Aspen fuel for my lawnmower for several years - it contains no ethanol ... but as it's four times the price of filling-station petrol I wouldn't want to run a car on it!

Introduction of E10 fuels - bathtub tom

I think you'll find aviation petrol (avgas) much cheaper (that contains no ethanol) if you can find any nearby that'll sell it in small quantities.

Introduction of E10 fuels - Andrew-T

Surely aviation fuel is less volatile than car petrol - I thought it was more like paraffin ?

Introduction of E10 fuels - skidpan

Avgas is normally available at small airfields but since its not intended for highway use there will be no road duty paid making the user liable to prosecution if stopped by the Customs and Excise. Very unlikely (its not obvious like a farmer using red diesel in his 4x4) but illegal regardless.

Since aircraft engines are designed to rev at a pretty constant speed that is slower than road engines the fuel is designed to burn slower to provide max power. I remember racers back in the early 90s buying 100 octane Avgas believing they would gain an advantage, they didn't.

One other small point, Avgas may still contain lead (it used to later than road fuel) which is not good.

Introduction of E10 fuels - bathtub tom

One other small point, Avgas may still contain lead (it used to later than road fuel) which is not good.

To my knowledge there's two types of avgas currently available:

92-93 octane unleaded.

99 octane low lead (which is something of a misnomer, as it contains several times more lead than road petrol ever did).

There may be no road duty on it, but it's still more expensive than road petrol.

Introduction of E10 fuels - bathtub tom

Surely aviation fuel is less volatile than car petrol - I thought it was more like paraffin ?

That's jet fuel.

 

Value my car