Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Steveieb
HJ has published his league tables of letters of complaint about various makes.
German cars in particular appear to be getting much worse, but what surprises me is how Renault have progressed from the worst to the best.
Against the Toyota Yari s 2011 to date which has 21 letters of complaint, the Captur during the same period scores 19.
Well done Renault , and that comes from someone who has consistently bashed Renaults and together with my partner took a risk on a new Captur 1.3 T based mainly on price!
Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - RT

Are those numbers assessed against the numbers sold? A car selling 100,000/year will naturally generate more complaints than one only selling 10,000/year without necessarily being less reliable.

Edited by RT on 29/01/2021 at 18:59

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Steveieb

Don’t think so just the numbers of letters asking for help with a problem with the car.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - RT

Don’t think so just the numbers of letters asking for help with a problem with the car.

So they're meaningless numbers really

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

Not really. You just need to compare the sales figures, which I could not find, so i looked on how many left. You can measure how many new registrations for a given year by model. For the Renault in 2015, there were 24,619 new Capturs registered.

For Toyota in 2015, there were 33,145.

Not a MASSIVE difference i'd say, but you can draw your own conclusions.

Toyota www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/toyota_yaris#!newreg

Renault www.howmanyleft.co.uk/family/renault_captur#!newreg

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

I will be glad to see the back of the German brands one day. To b******ise a phrase, they're over priced, over complicated and over here.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - John F

I will be glad to see the back of the German brands one day. To b******ise a phrase, they're over priced, over complicated and over here.

So what would Jaguar and Land/Range Rovers do without German gearboxes? And Rolls Royce and Bentley without German engines as well?

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.
Land Rover and Jaguar have both used Jatco gearboxes in the past, and the Borg-Warner 3 speeds of you go back far enough. The best answer? Aisin.

Engines? BMW V12 of any era is hardly a shining beacon of reliability. They would be better off either designing their own engines like they used to, or buying in from a quality engine maker but that will not happen when they are owned by VW and BMW respectively.

I do like the W12 in your Audi. Not going to criticise that one!
Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - pd

Tell anyone who ended up with a scrap Volvo from the early 2000s Aisin gearboxes can't be total unreliable rubbish!

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - skidpan

I am more than happy to continue buying "German" brands whilst they suit our needs. Since 1986 we have bought 8 in total and covered over 380,000 miles in them. We had an 11 year break in that period where we did not own a VAG car (there were better driving better value cars at the time) so that was 380,000 in 23 years, an average of 16,500 miles a year approx.

What problems have we had.

Break downs - zero

Warranty repairs - one water pump, one fuel pump and one clutch

Repairs out of warranty - one full exhaust, one back box, diff oil seals and a rear caliper. Total cost was about £400.

Also had a BMW. 5 1/2 years, one recovery when a spring broke (on the drive), Cost about £300 for a pair fitted. No other repairs.

So more than happy to carry on with "German" brands.

But I do look at alternatives but late last year none of the others we looked at met our needs like another VAG car. So that is what we bought.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

Glad to hear you have had a good run of them, but why do you keep putting speech marks on the word "German", Volkswagon are as German as they come and were founded by the Nazi party as part of their national socialist agenda in the 1930s, your speech marks suggest you don't think they are really German?

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

And BMW is Bavarian Motor Works... and they made very good engines for the Luftwaffe.

Edited by Metropolis. on 30/01/2021 at 11:03

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - focussed

Colloquially BMW stands for "Bring More Wonga"

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - skidpan

Glad to hear you have had a good run of them, but why do you keep putting speech marks on the word "German", Volkswagon are as German as they come and were founded by the Nazi party as part of their national socialist agenda in the 1930s, your speech marks suggest you don't think they are really German?

Simply because VAG includes Skoda and Seat neither of which are German but come under the main brand. Since they use components designed by and used by all 4 companies it fair to include them. But lets also remember that all the TSI engines regardless of the brand they are used in are manufactured by Skoda as are the batteries used by all the brands.

Most people on the planet consider Kia and Hyundai to be Korean yet many of the cars sold in the UK are made in either the Czech Republic or Slovakia and if you live in the USA many of the cars are actually made there.

Basically I prefer not to think of VAG as German but as simply good cars that are reliable and suit our current needs. I have looked at the Toyotas and Hondas that many on this forum simply love but I have not found one that makes me want to buy one. The Civics we have tried were noisy and had a dreadful ride and the dreadful Toyota dealerships we have visited (3 of them) with the lying unhelpful sales staff have simply made us walk away (not that the cars suited us either).

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.
Fair enough, I see your point.
Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - BPL

Simply because VAG includes Skoda and Seat neither of which are German but come under the main brand. Since they use components designed by and used by all 4 companies it fair to include them. But lets also remember that all the TSI engines regardless of the brand they are used in are manufactured by Skoda as are the batteries used by all the brands.

Most people on the planet consider Kia and Hyundai to be Korean yet many of the cars sold in the UK are made in either the Czech Republic or Slovakia and if you live in the USA many of the cars are actually made there.

Basically I prefer not to think of VAG as German but as simply good cars that are reliable and suit our current needs. I have looked at the Toyotas and Hondas that many on this forum simply love but I have not found one that makes me want to buy one. The Civics we have tried were noisy and had a dreadful ride and the dreadful Toyota dealerships we have visited (3 of them) with the lying unhelpful sales staff have simply made us walk away (not that the cars suited us either).

Anyone know why the big difference in perception of reliability of VW vs Skoda on HJ and in other motor press? Are Skoda owners more careful...? Are Skodas really better built?

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - RT

Glad to hear you have had a good run of them, but why do you keep putting speech marks on the word "German", Volkswagon are as German as they come and were founded by the Nazi party as part of their national socialist agenda in the 1930s, your speech marks suggest you don't think they are really German?

My "German" VW Touareg was built in Slovakia, alongside the Audi Q7 and Porsche Cayenne - all using a Hungarian-built Audi diesel.

My other car is a "French" Citroen C1 - built in Czech Republic, it's a rebadged Toyota Aygo using a Diahatsu engine.

Nationalism in motoring is so out of date

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.
Nationalism in motoring is out of date? We must be the only major car producing country with this self-defeating attitude and look where we are. A disaster.

Go to Japan, America, France, Italy, “Germany”, they all back their own brands much more than we do, and their domestic models are what you will see most often on the road, for better or worse.
Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Avant

True - but we too were in that position in my 50s / 60s childhood. Austins were the best and most reliable mass-produced cars you could buy, and when Rolls-Royce advertised their cars as the best in the world, they could justify the claim.

But the rot set in during the 60s, and by the 70s, through bad management and poor quality factory work, people could hardly be blamed for moving to VWs and Toyotas.

I can remember that was brought home to me when I was doing an audit at a client's premises in the early 70s. The chief accountant had a Toyota Corona, one of the first imported in the mid-60s and totally reliable. One of the other managers had a Morris 1800, which had one problem after another. I had a Maxi then, and realised that I'd been lucky: it had some serious design faults but mine at least was reliable.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - RT
Nationalism in motoring is out of date? We must be the only major car producing country with this self-defeating attitude and look where we are. A disaster. Go to Japan, America, France, Italy, “Germany”, they all back their own brands much more than we do, and their domestic models are what you will see most often on the road, for better or worse.

Chrysler has been in trouble for years, Ford and GM are abandoning cars - without pickups the US makers would have died long ago - imports rule in America, albeit with final assembly in the USA.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Alby Back
There is also, in my opinion, a great deal of truth in the old saying that bad news travels much faster than good. My own experience after more than four decades of driving multiple vehicles across a wide variety of makes, and many over excessive distances, has not often, in fact extremely rarely, been punctuated by unreliable cars. Only two of them gave me any particular concerns. All the rest, just did what they were supposed to do, and needed only routine servicing and consumables.

It is often argued that cars which are primarily used for longer runs last better, and that may well be true, but my wife, who has a very different usage pattern to me, with mainly urban, short journeys has not suffered any "bad" cars either.

Undoubtedly, some owners get some problems some of the time with some cars, or else we wouldn't get to hear about them. But, I'd be interested to know what that represents as a function of most people's experience.


Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Andrew-T
Go to Japan, America, France, Italy, “Germany”, they all back their own brands much more than we do, and their domestic models are what you will see most often on the road, for better or worse.

And it isn't just cars - trains, white goods, food, furniture - you name it. I don't know whether we think it's trendy or exotic or what. The long-term problem is that our producers are forced to become importers, until we have little choice. We don't even make all our own electricity.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Rerepo

If a car is from a German or French brand then wherever it is assembled the profits are funneled back to Germany or France and nourish their economy. Given the behaviour of France and Germany toward the UK I would never wish to support their industries. British made Toyota for me! The recent behaviour of the Germans (trying to steal our vaccine) have caused me to redouble my efforts to boycott EU goods. My wife wanted something from Lidl today but I refused to go there and took her to Morrisons!

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - skidpan

My wife wanted something from Lidl today but I refused to go there and took her to Morrisons!

Did you check that all the Morrisons products you bought were made in the UK by a UK owned company.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Rerepo

My wife wanted something from Lidl today but I refused to go there and took her to Morrisons!

Did you check that all the Morrisons products you bought were made in the UK by a UK owned company.

I hear your sneer in that comment, but yes I do try to check that I buy British products where possible. I know is fashionable these days in the UK to sneer at anyone who is patriotic, however the French and Germans don't hesitate to support their own industries and their kith and kin. Given the recent abhorrent behaviour of Germany and France (Macron blocking the border and that German woman wanting to steal our vaccines) I feel fully vindicated in buying British wherever possible and as little as possible from our EU 'friends'.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

I detected a hint of sneering as well. For some reason patriotism is still a dirty word to many in this country, which is odd. We abandoned our kith and kin in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Rhodesia, you name it we abandoned it. Alot of places of British descent bought British and the trade agreements between commonwealth nations were very favourable for doing so. Did we really think the Germans, French and Italians were going to buy our cars? We had our own trading bloc that actually liked us, and we left that for one that didn't.

The sheer number of pre-73 cars in New Zealand is quite telling. They have not really forgiven us for abandoning them as we did, they really suffered with tarriffs going up overnight.

Edited by Metropolis. on 31/01/2021 at 20:29

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - nick62

I detected a hint of sneering as well. For some reason patriotism is still a dirty word to many in this country, which is odd. We abandoned our kith and kin in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Rhodesia, you name it we abandoned it. Alot of places of British descent bought British and the trade agreements between commonwealth nations were very favourable for doing so. Did we really think the Germans, French and Italians were going to buy our cars? We had our own trading bloc that actually liked us, and we left that for one that didn't.

The sheer number of pre-73 cars in New Zealand is quite telling. They have not really forgiven us for abandoning them as we did, they really suffered with tarriffs going up overnight.

But they were still carp cars.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

"But they were still carp cars."

And now they are no cars, almost.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Andrew-T

The sheer number of pre-73 cars in New Zealand is quite telling. They have not really forgiven us for abandoning them as we did, they really suffered with tariffs going up overnight.

We had a great month in NZ about 15 years ago and ran into a rally of Fraser Nashes ....

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Warning

! The recent behaviour of the Germans (trying to steal our vaccine) have caused me to redouble my efforts to boycott EU goods.

The EU reflected on its stance and altered their position. Credit to them. Unlike Trump, who took all 3M masks for the US. The US caused a global financial crisis. We still went into a useless war under Blair, which Europe stayed out of. The mess has made the world a less safe place. We are n't saints either selling weapons to countries, which we should n't.

We are too focused on Europe, to see what is going on elsewhere. Everything is made in China.... The US moved their factories overseas and made them rich. CN see the West as hostile nations. Forcing us to buy Huawei and threatening punishment (despite changing in public mood), upset over HK and upset, we did n't give them any national pride, as we did n't buy any of their vaccines.



Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - John F

...... but we too were in that position in my 50s / 60s childhood. Austins were the best and most reliable mass-produced cars you could buy, and when Rolls-Royce advertised their cars as the best in the world, they could justify the claim.

But back then there was a 30% tariff on foreign cars so most people put up with often unreliable mediocrity. The flood gates were opened by the common market resulting in Brits buying cars from countries which prized engineering excellence above classics and law degrees from Oxbridge.

The best bit of engineering in a 50s /60s Rolls Royce was arguably its American gearbox.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - RT

...... but we too were in that position in my 50s / 60s childhood. Austins were the best and most reliable mass-produced cars you could buy, and when Rolls-Royce advertised their cars as the best in the world, they could justify the claim.

But back then there was a 30% tariff on foreign cars so most people put up with often unreliable mediocrity. The flood gates were opened by the common market resulting in Brits buying cars from countries which prized engineering excellence above classics and law degrees from Oxbridge.

The best bit of engineering in a 50s /60s Rolls Royce was arguably its American gearbox.

The flood gates were opened by BMC/British Leyland/Austin Morris/Rover repeatedly producing sub-standard cars forcing buyers to look elsewhere.

The GM automatic transmission used by Rolls-Royce had no reaL engineering excellence or sophistication, it was used because it could handle the torque that Rolls-Royce engines produced.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - bazza

We live in a global society and I'm very glad and happy that we do, with access to a standard of living that our predecessors could only dream of. In terms of motoring, as said, the demise of the UK car and motorbike industry was thoroughly deserved, UK industry had continued to believe it could survive with archaic working practices and management by selling mediocre products to a fading empire, post ww2. No wonder the public leapt to buy European and Japanese products in the 70s and 80s, there was so much more choice and certainly with the German and Japanese makers, far superior build and reliability. Our saving grace for car manufacture was the EU single market, allowing the likes of Honda and Toyota to set up in the UK without barriers and bring modern management techniques with them. So yes, if you want to buy a British car, buy a Honda or a Toyota while they are still here! Personally, I buy the car I fancy, and have had good service from German, French, UK and Japanese makes, they all have their pros and cons and I don't think I could pick a favourite, although my first Skoda Octavia was a great car to own despite a few niggles.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

That transmission has a bombproof reputation and is still popular in the dragster community. I Engineering doesn't have to be sophisticated to be excellent. Arguably any automatic gearbox is sophisticated already by virtue of it being automatic. Reliable, strong and cheap. Can't get much better engineering than that.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Andrew-T

<< The flood gates were opened by BMC/British Leyland/Austin Morris/Rover repeatedly producing sub-standard cars forcing buyers to look elsewhere. >>

We had a series of 5 Maxis from the mid-70s to mid-80s and they were all decent cars - some happily took us to Switzerland on holiday. I was prepared to switch to the replacement model (Maestro) but one test drive changed my mind. A Cavalier estate made a good substitute for a while, then as luck would have it, the press was hyping the 205, which kept us going for about 30 years.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - John F

We had a series of 5 Maxis from the mid-70s to mid-80s and they were all decent cars - some happily took us to Switzerland on holiday.

That's a low bar for 'decency', even in the 70s when 50,000 miles was considered 'old' for a car engine. Switzerland is only 500 miles from Calais. Even 1970s Austins should have been able to do 1000 miles without breaking down!

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Andrew-T

We had a series of 5 Maxis from the mid-70s to mid-80s and they were all decent cars - some happily took us to Switzerland on holiday.

That's a low bar for 'decency', even in the 70s when 50,000 miles was considered 'old' for a car engine. Switzerland is only 500 miles from Calais. Even 1970s Austins should have been able to do 1000 miles without breaking down!

We don't all start from Calais, John, or even Dover ....

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - John F

We had a series of 5 Maxis from the mid-70s to mid-80s and they were all decent cars - some happily took us to Switzerland on holiday.

That's a low bar for 'decency', even in the 70s when 50,000 miles was considered 'old' for a car engine. Switzerland is only 500 miles from Calais. Even 1970s Austins should have been able to do 1000 miles without breaking down!

We don't all start from Calais, John, or even Dover ....

Fair point. I don't know whether my father's Austins were reliable - I was too young - but I do remember his Rover 105S couldn't make it from Yorkshire home to Cornwall holiday destination (400 miles) without breaking the link from the gear lever, mounted on a curious golf-ball-like thing, to the gearbox. Fortunately a local garage/blacksmith was able to fettle a replacement.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - nick62
countries which prized engineering excellence above classics and law degrees from Oxbridge.

Nothing much changes in "good old" Blighty.

Sorry for the thread drift, but it never ceases to amaze me when I have to complete on line forms, when it asks regarding "profession" where you have to select from a list, (I had to do one last week as part of my business for the Data Protection Register). There is invariably every job under the sun, but never any for "engineers" of any description! An engineer to a Brit is someone who fixes your boiler (or not in the case of BG)!

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Bilboman

The best bit of engineering in a 50s /60s Rolls Royce was arguably its American gearbox - or its Citroën suspension units?

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - barney100

I've had five Mercs over quite a few years and they have been fine, there are many Mercs with huge mileages doing taxi work and taxi drivers wouldn't go for unreliable.

Honest John Statistics today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Fernando P

The Mercedes taxis in Berlin (Deutsche taxis!) many of which are owned by taxi companies, are routinely kept until they reach 600k kms (360k mls). There is a ready private market waiting for them then. They are serviced regularly and as frequently as mileage requires.

I similarly spoke to a taxi/hire car driver who had stopped for a break nearby in the UK. The driver called up the mileage for me to see and the C220dci had done 353K mls and was said to be going great. It was surprisingly serviced every 3 weeks or so because of the mileage done.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Metropolis.

This thread has been so derailed, possibly my fault, athough i did comment on the survey itself as well and went to the effort of finding sales figures in another comment.. Apologies Steveieb!

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - corax

This thread has been so derailed, possibly my fault,

Maybe, but the following discussion has been far more interesting than the original point of the thread!

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Steveieb

No need to apologise Metropolis. All interesting stuff!

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Steveieb

Back to the plot

Here is the article.

The reliability of German cars is a bit of a myth; I say that based on the number of complaints I receive from readers. Taking Volkswagens, for example, I have received 206 faults reported with the 2009-2013 Golf Mk6; 160 faults with the 2013-2020 Golf Mk7 and 115 faults with the 2009-2017 Polo. The 2007-2014 Mercedes-Benz C-Class has elicited 67 complaints; I have also received 52 reports of faults with the 2012-2019 BMW 3-Series. All these cars have a three-year manufacturer warranty. In my experience, if you want trouble-free driving, look at manufacturers offering the longest warranties. Toyotas are covered by a five-year warranty; readers have reported only 21 faults with the 2011-2020 Yaris. Hyundais also have a five-year warranty; only three faults with the 2012-2017 Hyundai i30 were reported. Kia offers a seven-year manufacturer warranty; only 17 faults were reported by readers with the 2012-2018 Kia Cee’d. In the 1990s, I received the most complaints about Renaults, but not any more; only 19 complaints from readers about the 2013-2019 Captur and 14 about the 2013-2019 Clio. Now Renaults are also covered by a five-year warranty. For your low mileage, buy an electric car or a hybrid, either plug-in or self-charging. Your best bet is probably the new Toyota Yaris hybrid.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - sammy1

Rubbish facts which mean little.. Perhaps some of the owners of the more expensive German cars would read the Telegraph and write to HJ. A fair few may be Golf owners and probably less of the other.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - catsdad

I can’t find the cited article in the online Telegraph edition. However the HJ 2020 satisfaction index on this site, while agreeing that German cars don’t rate well, also has Renault as a poor performer.
There is also the usual discrepancy between how the Golf and Octavia rate despite their common underpinnings.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - skidpan

The reliability of German cars is a bit of a myth; I say that based on the number of complaints I receive from readers. Taking Volkswagens, for example, I have received 206 faults reported with the 2009-2013 Golf Mk6; 160 faults with the 2013-2020 Golf Mk7 and 115 faults with the 2009-2017 Polo. The 2007-2014 Mercedes-Benz C-Class has elicited 67 complaints; I have also received 52 reports of faults with the 2012-2019 BMW 3-Series. All these cars have a three-year manufacturer warranty. In my experience, if you want trouble-free driving, look at manufacturers offering the longest warranties. Toyotas are covered by a five-year warranty; readers have reported only 21 faults with the 2011-2020 Yaris. Hyundais also have a f0775957707ive-year warranty; only three faults with the 2012-2017 Hyundai i30 were reported. Kia offers a seven-year manufacturer warranty; only 17 faults were reported by readers with the 2012-2018 Kia Cee’d. In the 1990s, I received the most complaints about Renaults, but not any more; only 19 complaints from readers about the 2013-2019 Captur and 14 about the 2013-2019 Clio. Now Renaults are also covered by a five-year warranty. For your low mileage, buy an electric car or a hybrid, either plug-in or self-charging. Your best bet is probably the new Toyota Yaris hybrid.

The writer of the article is clearly a total idiot.

2013 - 2020 Golf had slightly fewer at 160 faults.

Pick another car.

2012 - 2018 Ceed, 17 faults.

So it wold seem that the Ceed is way more reliable than a Golf.

But VW sell a fair few more Golfs that Kia sell Ceeds, looking at European figures probably 5 or 6 times as many which clearly accounts for some of the difference.

But do the same proportion of Ceed owners actually read the Torygraph as much as Golf owners. That will also upset the figures.

As other have said, the article proves nothing.

We had a Ceed from 2010 to 2015, 1 fault.

We had a Leon form 2013 to 2017, zero faults

Skoda Superb 2017 to 2020, zero faults

Skoda Fabia from 2018 - present, zero faults.

So in our experience a Ceed is far less reliable than a VAG car.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Andrew-T

Oh no - not more idiots ?? The world must be fuller of them than I realised - or perhaps it's a recognised profession.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - skidpan

Oh no - not more idiots ?? The world must be fuller of them than I realised - or perhaps it's a recognised profession.

Met quite a few when I was out walking. One lady was speaking on her phone (quite loudly) telling the person on the other end that her daughter is quite a bit better and looking forward to a weekend away with friends in Leicester this weekend and further trips in the weeks to come.

How idiotic do you want to get.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Steveieb
The list of complaints was part of last weeks Honest John column in the Telegraph.
Does HJ still write these replies or has the job been taken over by someone else ?
Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Avant

As far as I know he still does. When the new owners took over this site, it was agreed that HJ could still use the name for his Telegraph work.

He can only report, as he freely admits, on the basis of what readers report to him. That of course doesn't make him an 'idiot' but it does mean that the sample can't prove anything statistically as there are too many unknowns. It's simply a guide.

What is consistently reported by surveys is that if you buy a German car and keep it for up to 5 years, you will probably be satisfied. Thereafter they are no more reliable than other makes and are expensive to repair. Which is why we usually advise buyers of used cars to go Japanese or Korean, and petrol-powered.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - movilogo

But VW sell a fair few more Golfs that Kia sell Ceeds, looking at European figures probably 5 or 6 times as many which clearly accounts for some of the difference.

Why it is expected that a car that sells in higher numbers will have more faults (unless it is exactly same fault which would be more with more numbers)?

If quality control is any good then number of types of faults should not vary linearly with number of cars sold.

If number of different types of faults also go up with number of cars sold, that indicates serious issue with quality control as different cars are developing different types of faults.

So in summary, a higher number of faults but which are consistent is preferable to fewer faults which are of different types showing no pattern.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - BPL

But VW sell a fair few more Golfs that Kia sell Ceeds, looking at European figures probably 5 or 6 times as many which clearly accounts for some of the difference.

Why it is expected that a car that sells in higher numbers will have more faults (unless it is exactly same fault which would be more with more numbers)?

If quality control is any good then number of types of faults should not vary linearly with number of cars sold.

If number of different types of faults also go up with number of cars sold, that indicates serious issue with quality control as different cars are developing different types of faults.

So in summary, a higher number of faults but which are consistent is preferable to fewer faults which are of different types showing no pattern.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - BPL

But VW sell a fair few more Golfs that Kia sell Ceeds, looking at European figures probably 5 or 6 times as many which clearly accounts for some of the difference.

Why it is expected that a car that sells in higher numbers will have more faults (unless it is exactly same fault which would be more with more numbers)?

If quality control is any good then number of types of faults should not vary linearly with number of cars sold.

If number of different types of faults also go up with number of cars sold, that indicates serious issue with quality control as different cars are developing different types of faults.

So in summary, a higher number of faults but which are consistent is preferable to fewer faults which are of different types showing no pattern.

Anyone know why the big difference in perception of reliability of VW vs Skoda on HJ and in other motor press? Are Skoda owners more careful...? Are Skodas really better built?

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Engineer Andy

As far as I know he still does. When the new owners took over this site, it was agreed that HJ could still use the name for his Telegraph work.

He can only report, as he freely admits, on the basis of what readers report to him. That of course doesn't make him an 'idiot' but it does mean that the sample can't prove anything statistically as there are too many unknowns. It's simply a guide.

What is consistently reported by surveys is that if you buy a German car and keep it for up to 5 years, you will probably be satisfied. Thereafter they are no more reliable than other makes and are expensive to repair. Which is why we usually advise buyers of used cars to go Japanese or Korean, and petrol-powered.

I suspect that his postbag is likely to be less full of complaints about Renaults and more of German cars because more Telegraph readers own them. I think it also reflects the likelihood that more luxury German cars have more gadgets to go wrong.

I suspect this also reflects wider society - far less Renaults on the road than 15 years ago, far fewer Clios and Meganes sold, and not made up by more MPVs.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - SLO76
Not exactly conclusive. It’s based on a small number of letters of complaint coming in to this motoring website which is more likely to attract motoring enthusiasts most of whom don’t buy Renaults. They do however buy a lot of German cars and those who’re mechanically minded but prioritise reliability over prestige and driver appeal buy Japanese. Thus few of the s who frequent this site own Renaults but many own German and Japanese cars.

Word of mouth is the best way to gauge reliability. Ask friends and family, ask the taxi driver who picked you up in his three year old car that’s covered 200,000 miles and chat to your mechanic. Read owner reviews too but I find most of these surveys etc a little too inconsistent. There’s no way Renault have seen a complete transformation in the last year, it’s just the parameters of this test are flawed. I know from experience that a Yaris will cause far less trouble and will greatly outlast a typical Renault Clio.
Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - pd

Non-weighted polls are pretty meaningless.

Purely subjective but I'd rate Renaults these days are perfectly fine on reliability. Not outstanding but on the whole no worse than their peers.

Hyundia/Kia I do not think are as well built as they seem to have a reputation for. I tend to find they last the warranty period (admittedly a long one) and then get tatty and expensive.

If I wanted a car which was well built and more often enough decent to drive Toyota usually ticks the boxes. They're miles ahead of the Korean stuff and most other Japanese in my experience.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - Alby Back
We all have our own scales of measurement or ways of looking at things. I've been a car nerd since childhood. ( from a long line of car nerds actually ) ;-)

I've always loved Mercs, and managed to get my first one when I was quite young. I've had them on and off all my life. Punctuated by many other cars of a wide variety of makes as circumstances and happenstances dictated.

I've had E classes for the past ten years and I really like them. I genuinely can't think of anything else I want right now. I'm not at all worried what impressions that may or may not give to others, it's purely for me, it satisfies my personal criteria and I'm happy to continue with this one in perpetuity or a similar replacement in due course.

You can reduce most purchase decisions to lowest common denominator levels if you try hard enough, and with cars the factors can include affordability, reliability etc. Which is fine of course, if that's how you look at things, or your current or foreseen circumstances make that a prudent approach.

But, sometimes, decisions are greater than the sum of their parts, and if something gives you pleasure in life, and it isn't overstretching you, well, why not?

I could save some money by not thinking that way of course, but sometimes things that you like can be just as valuable to you as things that make more sense.

When it comes time for me to check out of this life, if I get the chance to reflect on it at all, I don't want to lie there thinking about how careful I was, I'd much rather be drifting off thinking, that was more than ok actually and I enjoyed it.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - skidpan

Why it is expected that a car that sells in higher numbers will have more faults (unless it is exactly same fault which would be more with more numbers)?

If I was considering a car that sold in small numbers I would expect to see a much lower number of complaints about reliability than a car that sells in much greater numbers assuming that both cars are built to the same standards, using parts of equal quality and being serviced by dealers of equal expertise.

That is why I would expect to see far fewer complaints from owners of a Kia Ceed than you would get from owners of a VW Golf.

But when you get brands like Alfa Romeo who sell relatively few cars in the UK compared to VAG or even Kia get a huge number of complaints its clear to see something is very wrong.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - galileo

Hyundia/Kia I do not think are as well built as they seem to have a reputation for. I tend to find they last the warranty period (admittedly a long one) and then get tatty and expensive.

If I wanted a car which was well built and more often enough decent to drive Toyota usually ticks the boxes. They're miles ahead of the Korean stuff and most other Japanese in my experience.

I had 3 Corollas from new, the third one had an annoying rattle behind the dashboard (rectified under warranty with no problem).

The Hyundai which replaced it 10 years ago has had no rattles or squeaks. My local independent and my trusted independent tyre fitter both consider Hyundai/Kia as good quality motors.

My wife had two Yaris's, all bought used, which were very reliable, the neighbour across the road and his wife each run 02 reg Yaris's which seem to suit them despite their age, supporting their common recommendation for a small car.

Honest John Statistcs today's telegraph - German car reliabilty is a myth - chris87
1. German cars are extremely reliable, but the Brits are not generally known for maintaining them according to the service manual. You either do as the engineers say or end up with problems. The car finance pandemic in this country means people don’t really care about their vehicles as they don’t develop any problems in the first 3 years and they give them back after that anyway.

2. Japanese cars tend to be more reliable, indeed.

3. No car will ever be more reliable than a toyota or a mazda, definitely not a french car. The cases you know about are exceptions and do not represent the reality.

4. Consumer reliability indexes are flawed and do not represent true reliability. If your infotainment is laggy and people complain, the “reliability” index goes down, in reality it has nothing to do with reliability.

Let’s put it this way, I’d rather be stranded in Siberia or Iraq in a vehicle that has a bulletproof powertrain tban one that’s likely to die, but has a nice, shiny infotainment :-).

Edited by chris87 on 10/02/2021 at 19:11

 

Value my car