Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Just had the timing belt replaced at 60000 mile service at franchised dealer. Next day, difficult to start. Sounded rough. Went back to dealer and whilst they acknowledged poor starting, they sent me away saying 'no cause for concern - if it doesn't improve, bring it back next week'. Next day, at 70mph on cruise control, car suddenly slowed. I pulled over and engine cut out.

AA picked it up and reported fault code P0341 Camshaft position sensor A (bank 1) pointing to either a failure of the sensor or the camshaft and crankshaft timing being out.
At the dealer, it was found that several rocker arms are broken. They tell me this is nothing to do with them changing the timing belt less than 50 miles previously.

First - had they taken my initial complaint seriously and investigated, the car would not have suffered catastrophic engine damage.

They claim this is totally unrelated to the timing belt change and think it is due to an injector failing and causing the other three injectors to over-compensate, resulting in the engine bores being flooded with fuel and hydraulic locking, and is purely coincidental it happened after they worked on the car, which incidentally has run smoothly and efficiently for the past 5 years.

They now expect me to foot a massive repair bill immediately after a major service and timing belt change which cost well into 4 figures.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

I know where my finger of suspicion points, it seems too much of a coincidence. A pity one can' say If it ain't broke, leave well alone ?

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - craig-pd130

The dealer is blatantly lying. Hydrolocking would break a piston or bend a conrod. Unfortunately it's now too late to get a sample of oil for analysis and proof of diesel dilution.

I would take legal advice on this quickly, which may mean commissioning an independent engineer to examine the engine and give their view on the cause of failure.

This might help, too: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-or-repai.../

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

The dealer is blatantly lying. Hydrolocking would break a piston or bend a conrod. Unfortunately it's now too late to get a sample of oil for analysis and proof of diesel dilution.

I would take legal advice on this quickly, which may mean commissioning an independent engineer to examine the engine and give their view on the cause of failure.

This might help, too: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/buying-or-repai.../

Thanks Craig - my limited understanding is that a faulty leaking injector could fill a cylinder before startup and hydrolock, but if the engine is already running at 2000 rpm, the exhaust port is open 1000 times a minute, it is difficult to see how an injector could fire enough fuel into the bore to hydrolock it! As you say, hydrolock would normally cause bottom end damage. Garage has offered to get the injectors tested but wont let me witness the test. Neither will they allow me to be present when they take off the head !

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - edlithgow

The dealer is blatantly lying. Hydrolocking would break a piston or bend a conrod. Unfortunately it's now too late to get a sample of oil for analysis and proof of diesel dilution.

Don't understand the Unfortunately it's now too late to get a sample of oil for analysis and proof of diesel dilution.

I'd have thought that, to the (limited) extent that diesel dilution is relevant, it would tend to support the dealer's bs, but I don't THINK its absence would, of itself, disprove the dealers bs.

(Or I'm missing something obvious, obviously.)

If they got the valve timing wrong (or belt tension wrong so it changed) and the pistons clouted the valves which then clouted the rocker arms, busting them (which I'd think is the way to bet) then wouldn''t there be signature "eyebrow" marks, (or worse) on the piston tops?

I'd agree with getting an independent engineer report, and/or lots of photo's. From a technical standpoint I'd think it would be rather hard for the dealer to hide the above evidence without an extensive rebuild.

That's presumably why they don't want to be observed. Tell them to pull the other one.

I don't know if you can legally insist on having your engineer present on their premises when they open up the engine, but I don't see why not, it being your car and all.

If the privacy of the dealers premises trumps your rights of access to your movable property, I suppose you'll have to get it out of there.

Edited by edlithgow on 17/12/2020 at 11:33

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

My own suspicions are on the timing belt tensioner possibly allowing the belt to jump. They did send me a photo of the timing belt with the marks in alignment, which seems a bit like sending a photo of a golf ball in the hole and claiming a hole in one!

Regardless of the fault however, surely they have some responsibility when I took the car back to them after the service complaining of rough running and poor starting and they told me it was fine and "not a concern"

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - craig-pd130

Don't understand the Unfortunately it's now too late to get a sample of oil for analysis and proof of diesel dilution.

I'd have thought that, to the (limited) extent that diesel dilution is relevant, it would tend to support the dealer's bs, but I don't THINK its absence would, of itself, disprove the dealers bs.

If there was enough unburned diesel in the combustion chamber to hydrolock the cylinder, there would be large amounts in the sump from ring blow-by too.

Also the dealer's theory that "one injector failed and the others have been over-compensating" is complete and utter nonsense. An injector failure would throw a fault code and a Check Engine / Emissions warning light, and the remaining working injectors would NOT over-compensate, as the injection system runs closed-loop.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - sammy1

When you took it back the next day reporting problems did they actually take your car into their workshop for a proper check? Too much of a coincidence for some thing to fail after the cambelt was changed

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

When you took it back the next day reporting problems did they actually take your car into their workshop for a proper check? Too much of a coincidence for some thing to fail after the cambelt was changed

I left the car with them overnight, got it back the next day and they said it was "not a concern". They admitted there was a starting issue but nothing urgent and told to book it in next week. The engine still didn't sound right to me, but they were adamant it was fine. Less than 24 hrs later, and having driven less than 8 miles, I am stranded at the side of a dual carriage way with a severely broken engine, and they are apparently not liable for any of it !! It is just an unfortunate co-incidence according to the service manager !!

Edited by Tungstentrout on 19/12/2020 at 11:57

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - edlithgow

Don't understand the Unfortunately it's now too late to get a sample of oil for analysis and proof of diesel dilution.

I'd have thought that, to the (limited) extent that diesel dilution is relevant, it would tend to support the dealer's bs, but I don't THINK its absence would, of itself, disprove the dealers bs.

If there was enough unburned diesel in the combustion chamber to hydrolock the cylinder, there would be large amounts in the sump from ring blow-by too.

Well, if that is true, didn't you mean "Unfortunately it's now too late to get a sample of oil for analysis and disproof of diesel dilution."?

And, if so, aren't you suggesting that the dealer might have spiked the sump with diesel to provide fake support for their BS explanation?

Seems a little parenoid.

And perhaps a little pointless. If the valves were clouted hard enough to bust the rockers there should be hard physical evidence on the piston crowns.

Edited by edlithgow on 17/12/2020 at 22:55

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Railroad.

This has everything to do with the dealer changing the cambelt. They didn't do the job correctly, and broken rockers are the result of pistons hitting valves. Consider yourself lucky though. Had the rockers not broken you'd have had bent valves or worse. The dealer is fully obliged to put this right at their expense.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

Had the rockers not broken you'd have had bent valves or worse. The dealer is fully obliged to put this right at their expense.

If you trust them to do that correctly of course .... :-(

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Galaxy

If you don't get anywhere and they are a franchised dealer take it up with Jaguar.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Latest update from the garage. After many ignored emails, they finally came back and confirmed that they got the results of the fuel injector tests sometime before Christmas. The injectors are working fine! Just as suspected, since the car passed an MOT emissions test less than 50 miles before engine failure.

Despite this disproving their madcap hydrolock theory, they still are not admitting liability, but have now agreed to remove the head at their expense. Still wont let me witness the removal though, quoting workshop insurance issues. If I want to view an MOT test, they are legally obliged to provide a viewing area or a video feed, so I cant see the difference in viewing a workshop procedure.

Seriously though, can anyone come up with any other explanation than the belt tensioner has allowed the timing belt to move or jump a tooth, allowing pistons to hit valves?

As suggested above this will be going above the franchised dealer, direct to Jaguar.

Just letting them dig the hole a wee bit deeper first.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - elekie&a/c doctor
Firstly , any mechanic/technician with some intelligence/ experience would have identified an engine problem after your report of bad starting and rough running . These are typical symptoms after incorrect installation of a timing belt . The garage should have advised you not to drive the vehicle . I not sure the head needs to be removed . If this is the Ford/Psa engine , then usually the damaged rockers can be replaced without any further issue. However , it’s possible the camshaft may have been damaged. I can’t see this being anything other than faulty workmanship by the dealer . It may be a good idea to employ an independent engineer to inspect the damage .

Edited by elekie&a/c doctor on 01/01/2021 at 12:21

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Lee Power

The 2 litre diesel is from the Ingenium engine family so its JLR.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - John F

If 'several rocker arms are broken' it would seem that this engine is designed with so-called sacrificial rocker arms, so that in the event of a timing belt breaking or, as most likely happened here, being mis-placed by a cack-handed mechanic, there is hopefully little damage to the valves and pistons. There are bound to be marks on the piston crowns which would confirm the diagnosis. Depending upon the strength of the conrods, they might have bent, so when the head comes off check the pistons actually come up as far as they should.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Simon

It's quite simple to me, they either messed up the valve timing or failed to set the tensioner correctly. The poor starting being the warning sign and the damage being the end result. Why they won't just hold their hands up and put the damage right is almost unbelievable.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

Why they won't just hold their hands up and put the damage right is almost unbelievable.

I would say quite believable and possibly to be expected. The Russians have shown everyone for generations that when the finger points, deny blame until that is no longer an option. Many politicians ( I'm sure we can all think of some) do the same. In the end the truth will out if persistence lasts long enough.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - mss1tw

What does Russia have to do with it?

Did Putin design the emissions testing workaround for VW too?

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

What does Russia have to do with it?

You might have asked what politicians 'have to do with it'. It was a reflection on human nature, that's all - which I believe Russians also have, to some extent.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Is there anywhere to post photos on this site? The dealer has taken off the head today, in private, and sent photos. To me there is clear evidence that several valves have contacted several of the pistons, but the garage still claim that even though the injectors passed the bench test, 'there is evidence of overfuelling'. They base this on the fact that for the three bores which the rockers broke, there is a very small collection of fluid - which looks green in the photo but they say must be diesel, in the recessed piston crown. The bore on which the valves were still operating is dry and appears normal. Is it likely that AFTER the rockers broke and the engine was turning over before stopping and also when then trying to restart it, the bores in which the valves were not opening would have been taking in diesel from the injectors but not burning it or pushing it out through the (closed) exhaust valves, so there could be a small build up, as a result of the failure rather than the cause. Either that or they squirted some fluid into the bore to back up their b******* theory.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - bathtub tom

Your mistake was letting them dismantle the engine. You should have had it taken to an independant garage.

I think you might now be without a leg to stand on.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - focussed

"They tell me this is nothing to do with them changing the timing belt less than 50 miles previously"

It's time to go legal - get a solicitor to remind them of their contractual obligations.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

It's time to go legal - get a solicitor to remind them of their contractual obligations.

I agree. They probably intend to go on denying until it becomes too late for you to get anywhere. They may also have tampered with any evidence.

Edited by Andrew-T on 06/01/2021 at 09:40

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - John F

Ask the service manager to explain how overfuelling can make valve-shaped dents in the pistons. Print off this thread and show selected contributions to the garage owner as well as the clearly incompetent service manager. If they still won't budge, tell them that you will hire a car. Then you will get it repaired yourself and sue them for the bill through the small claims court, or engage a solicitor to sort it out for you, which will be even more expensive for them. At all times be pleasant and polite.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - John F

Your mistake was letting them dismantle the engine. You should have had it taken to an independant garage.

I think you might now be without a leg to stand on.

I don't think this was a mistake. You have allowed them to investigate the problem to confirm the diagnosis. I think it would have been a mistake to have taken it away. They could then accuse you of interfering with the evidence. The presence of a bit of fluid in the bores is immaterial, probably a bit of coolant spilling in when the head wwas removed.....or greasy rainwater if pushed outside with the bonnet open.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Photos from the garage

https://ibb.co/kc26LnD

B1-2 - there are flat machined recesses in the piston top for the exhaust valves. It seems obvious there has been contact at the top left Ex V and marks are clear on the piston showing both inlet valves have hit the piston in Bore 1. The machined circular recess in the bottom face of the valve can be seen on the piston head for three out of the four valves (might need to zoom in). Bore 2, there seems to be a mark at the top right Inlet Valve.

https://ibb.co/bv59vwG

B2-3 Again the top right Inlet Valve seems to have left a mark on B2.

B3 - there are marks for both Inlet Valves in Bore 3 (RHS)

https://ibb.co/5BhYdBm

B3-4 Again in this photo there is a mark where the top right Inlet Valve has contacted the piston in Bore 3

In Bore 4, the top left Ex Valve seems to have also contacted the piston, since there is a circular machined recess in the bottom face of the valve, corresponding to the raised circle in the centre of the machined recess in the piston.

Despite having sent me these photos, the garage reiterated the rockers broke due to an overfuelling issue and is nothing to do with them changing the timing belt less than 50 miles previously.

Am I just clutching at straws or is it not obvious from the photos there has been piston valve contact?

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - focussed

"the rockers broke due to an overfuelling issue and is nothing to do with them changing the timing belt less than 50 miles previously"

Having been professionally involved with diesels with a major manufacturer and with my own workshop for in excess of 25 years, that statement of theirs is just flim-flam - nonsense - It does not make any sense whatsoever.

You could ask them to explain the technical reasons behind why overfuelling causes valve contact with the tops of pistons resulting in broken rocker arms, I'm sure we all would like to hear it!

Get them to put their diagnosis in writing and take it to a solicitor.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - John F

Clearly a classic example of the human propensity to believe what it wants to believe despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. To accuse the garage's representative of 'delusion' might be going a bit far. Perhaps the word 'trumpery' is in need of a new meaning?

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

Perhaps the word 'trumpery' is in need of a new meaning?

I don't think a new meaning is required - the one you imply matches the established one very closely. :-)

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Thanks guys. I believe the timing belt tensioner has not been fitted correctly, allowing piston / valve contact. The 'master tech' who claims the belt and tensioner was perfect when he took off the cover, I suspect is covering for either himself or a colleague. If timing is correct, valves cannot touch pistons. The Service manager who admitted to me he 'is not technical' is blindly believing whatever nonsense the master tech is giving him. The master tech has dug himself into a hole and as you say, in a style Trump would be proud of, he will not admit he is wrong. I am getting to see the car this afternoon and will be taking plenty photos. If they have attempted to cover up or conceal that the job was botched in the first place this crosses the line from incompetence to fraud! Not what you would expect from a national dealership!

Edited by Tungstentrout on 08/01/2021 at 12:46

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Galaxy

I still think it's worth taking this matter up with Jaguar if you don't get any satisfaction with the dealer. Manufacturers do have to bear some responsibility for the actions of their main dealers because it's their name they are working under.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

I still think it's worth taking this matter up with Jaguar

Absolutely, I agree. It is over three weeks of arguing with them and they just come up with the same ridiculous nonsense.

Had I just accepted their diagnosis I would be getting another bill well into the thousands to remedy what I believe is their mistake.

Apart from anything else, I took the car back to them telling them it wasn't running right and after keeping it in overnight they acknowledged it wasn't right and said "no cause for concern - book it in next week!" They must bear some liability for that alone. The car lasted another 8 miles after that!

It seems to me they are either incompetent or deliberately covering up their mistakes.

Either way, this is going direct to Jaguar.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - madf

I still think it's worth taking this matter up with Jaguar

Absolutely, I agree. It is over three weeks of arguing with them and they just come up with the same ridiculous nonsense.

Had I just accepted their diagnosis I would be getting another bill well into the thousands to remedy what I believe is their mistake.

Apart from anything else, I took the car back to them telling them it wasn't running right and after keeping it in overnight they acknowledged it wasn't right and said "no cause for concern - book it in next week!" They must bear some liability for that alone. The car lasted another 8 miles after that!

It seems to me they are either incompetent or deliberately covering up their mistakes.

Either way, this is going direct to Jaguar.

Send a copy of and a link to this thread to Jaguar as well...

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Miniman777
While this points very strongly to a timing belt issue, have you searched internet for any other instances of broken rockers and the circumstances?

If there are none, technically weakens dealers argument. There is backside covering and it’s disgraceful they are trying to pass liability to you.
Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - joegrundy

Just a thought - if you paid for the service/belt change with a credit card, have you considered making a s.75 claim against the credit card company? Doing so may increase the pressure on the dealer. May even prompt the cc provider to commission an independent inspection.

Also, the provision of services is covered by CRA 2015, which requiews them to be carried out with reasonable care and skill.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Just a thought - if you paid for the service/belt change with a credit card, have you considered making a s.75 claim against the credit card company? Doing so may increase the pressure on the dealer. May even prompt the cc provider to commission an independent inspection.

Also, the provision of services is covered by CRA 2015, which requiews them to be carried out with reasonable care and skill.

Good point - will investigate, Thanks

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout
While this points very strongly to a timing belt issue, have you searched internet for any other instances of broken rockers and the circumstances?

There are many references to diesel engines hydrolocked due to ingestion of water through the air intake, or where fuel leakage has filled a bore when the engine is not running causing hydrolock when it is turned on the starter, but not one where excess fuel is injected when the engine is running.

Furthermore, I have spoken to 2 service managers at other Jaguar dealers from different motor groups to inquire if this is a known fault and both said that they had never heard of this happening and that there is no Jaguar bulletin referring to this ever having been reported as a reason for failure.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Garage responded again claiming that if the timing was out or tensioner was set wrong the valve rockers on all 4 cylinders would be broken, not just on 3 of them, as if that proves their case.

When I suggested that the wet appearance of bores 1-3 was due to the engine being turned over on the starter with exhaust valves being stuck closed after the rockers broke, they rubbished this saying that bore 4 would be just as wet, despite all valves on bore 4 working properly.

To sum up they are still adamant the the sudden failure was due to overfuelling, not them changing the timing belt.

What puzzles me is that a diesel engine speed is controlled by how much fuel is injected.So if 3 cylinders suddenly overfuelled, surely the car should have been accelerating as if I had hit kick-down. Failure happened at constant 70mph on a dual carriageway!

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Paulsxf

Why did they remove the head?

I thought the whole idea was that the rockers were sacraficial. You replace the rockers and fit a new cambelt. Only then would you remove the head if you have further issues? If they wanted to see the tops of the pistons they could have removed the injectors and put a boroscope down.

They could have probably done that for a lot less labour then taking the head off.

Try contacting Jaguar CRC. From what I have heard thier service can be variable at best.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

They were trying to prove that the reason for the failure was not piston / valve contact but some completely unrelated over fueling issue. Despite the injector test showing they were fine and clear indications on the top of the pistons that the valves have hit the pistons, they still insist the failure is nothing to do with the timing belt replacement and want paid to carry out the repairs.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

... they still insist the failure is nothing to do with the timing belt replacement and want paid to carry out the repairs.

It seems you must invite them to convince an independent but authoritative party of that argument. It may involve some legal people.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Ian D
Any update on this OP? This was an interesting thread...
Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

The franchised dealer eventually offered to carry out repairs to the damaged parts provided I agreed to pay for the parts (over £500). This has now been referred to Jaguar Customer Services whose initial response was that this seem like a timing issue since the belt replacement. Now we seem to be getting somewhere. Vardys have now come back and offered to carry out repairs at no cost. However they have stated that 'a case can be built for both arguments', which is nonsense. So a copy of that response is now back with Jaguar, with my comment that IF the failure is indeed down to some random, unexplained overfuelling causing hydrolock, they are only proposing to repair resultant damage, without either identifying or repairing the fault which caused failure. So to follow through their argument, if this happens again, who will pay then? Of course I believe the problem was the timing or a poorly fitted tensioner, but I don't trust this bunch of incompetents to fix it. Expecting a call from Jaguar this week. That's now 12 weeks. At least I've had courtesy E-pace to cruise about in.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - craig-pd130

At least you're getting somewhere, well done for persisting. Vardys are just sulking with their "case can be built for both arguments" statement.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Tungstentrout

Final update. After Jaguar intervention, car is repaired with all 16 rockers (not just the 6 broken ones) and the tensioner replaced, at no cost to me. Had a courtesy E-pace for 15 weeks. Got 4 figure compensation from Jag and next service at no cost. Jaguar will not confirm sanctions against garage but have stated this will be dealt with internally. Neither will they formally confirm in writing that the issue was down to the garage, but the outcome confirms that quite clearly.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - bathtub tom

Well done for 'sticking to your guns' and getting it sorted. Goes to show cowboys are still operating in the business, even in so called premium brands and expect the customer to pay for their expensive mistakes.

Thanks for updating.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Xileno

Yes a good result. I think I would be looking for another garage and forget the free service, unless it's transferable?

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - John F

Excellent. Thanks for coming back to us. A salutary lesson that a big name fancy gin palace is no guarantee of competence.

Jaguar XF 2.0D - Broken rocker arms, after timing belt replaced - Andrew-T

A salutary lesson that a big name fancy gin palace is no guarantee of competence.

I'm not sure it ever was. Maybe some mechanics interested in their calling preferred to work at a place which cared a bit more ?

 

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