Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Trilogy.

EVs won't solely be the solution.

newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020/company/porsche-sieme...l

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Bromptonaut

Is it a scheme to produce hydrogen?

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Bolt

Is it a scheme to produce hydrogen?

To generate green hydrogen, electrolyzers use wind power to dissociate water into its two components, oxygen and hydrogen. In a second step, plans call for filtering CO2 out of the air and then combining it with the green hydrogen to form synthetic methanol. The result is renewable methanol, which can be converted into climate-friendly fuel using an MTG (Methanol To Gasoline) technology to be licensed and supported by ExxonMobil.

copied from article

Edited by bolt on 03/12/2020 at 13:33

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Engineer Andy

Hardly green if they are extracting hydrogen from fresh water, which is a very scarce resource these days.

Sea water needs desalination first - a very energy-intensive process, and as this very website reported, Toyota have already done this at one of their plants in Japan, and it took them a solar PV array the size of a football pitch just to provide enough hydrogen (same method of extraction from water) to power 6 pallet lifters for ONE day. One standard size wind turbine will likely not be enough, and that's assuming the wind blows 100% of the time, otherwise they're going to be doing nowt.

If they have a backup of PV, where's all the PV arrays and general factory going to go - are they going to cut down loads of trees to site it? Where's all that (huge amounts of) fresh water coming from? If its sea water, then desal plants are huge (I saw one in Malta) in comparison.

I bet that 'artist's impression' is only the very small first stage site, not the one producing 3000x as much hydrogen, otherwise that turbine would be higher than the Eiffel tower.

They make it sound soooo easy, but it ain't. Nor is it as 'green' as they state. Good PR though for Porsche.

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Terry W

I don 't disagree with the conclusion that "green methanol" is not a solution - rather than waste electrical energy and other resources on lots of intermediate processes it would be better to simply charge up a battery.

However water is not remotely a scarce resource - Sahara, Kalahari etc aside - we have lots and tend to squander it keeping lawns green, cars washed, fountains founting etc etc.

Water also benefits from automatic recycling - very simplistically it rains, everything gets wet, surplus flows into into rivers, then to sea. The sun evaporates surface water, it forms clouds and rains again.

Were it actually scarce we would mandate all new properties fitted with rainwater recovery systems and provide grants to retrofit old properties. We don't!

Oil is demonstrably a scarce resource, and likely to become even scarcer.

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - concrete

Given the sheer amount of ICE vehicle on the planet it makes sense to research a fuel that can utilise these vehicles. That will save a lot more carbon than some schemes. I think Hydrogen is a possible solution and hopefully will come to the rescue before we all have to go 'electric'. Very clever technology and if there is money to made then someone will do it.

Cheers Concrete

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Bolt

I think Hydrogen is a possible solution and hopefully will come to the rescue before we all have to go 'electric'.

I agree, and there is a lot of research going on into making Hydrogen easier to produce in large amounts including transporting from producer to user.

iirc we are using a trial train running on hydrogen, and in the not too distant future buses will run on it, so the DFT seem convinced it is going to work in Scotland, not sure when the buses will run but possibly next year or so

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Andrew-T

Were it actually scarce we would mandate all new properties fitted with rainwater recovery systems and provide grants to retrofit old properties. We don't!

I think we are talking globally here ? In many countries using water as a source of H2 will be a low priority, even in parts of the US. It's decades since it was suggested that future wars may be about water, not sources of oil.

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Terry W

To generate 1kg of hydrogen needs approx 9 litres of water.

The energy stored in 1kg of hydrogen is 33.6kwh.

Very approximately an EV will drive 3 miles per kwh.

So 1kg of hydrogen gives approx 100 mile range.

Put into context - every time you flush the toilet around 7 litres disappears down the drain.

In the UK 65m each of us use ~150 litres of water per day. As there are approx 2 people for each car doing approx 25 miles a day on average. The demand per capita for water to generate hydrogen is ~ 1-2 litres.

Put bluntly the water used to produce hydrogen is utterly trivial in most developed countries. In bits of the world where there are real water shortages, they would do better to use any electriciy generated to charge batteries and run extra desalination plants.

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Sofa Spud

Why use 'green' electricity to produce synthetic fuels when that same electricity could be used directly to charge the batteries of EVs?

As things are, the amount of energy consumed in refining the fuel to run a petrol or diesel car would produce roughly enough electricity to run an equivalent electric car. It might only take one third of the energy to refine petrol or diesel than you get back from combustion but an engine wastes about two-thirds of combustion energy as heat.

As the proportion of EVs on the roads grows and that of ICV's declines, there will be less pressure to find alternative fuels for the latter.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 04/12/2020 at 09:46

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - alan1302

Why use 'green' electricity to produce synthetic fuels when that same electricity could be used directly to charge the batteries of EVs?


It's a way to allow the energy to be stored until it's needed

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Engineer Andy

I don 't disagree with the conclusion that "green methanol" is not a solution - rather than waste electrical energy and other resources on lots of intermediate processes it would be better to simply charge up a battery.

However water is not remotely a scarce resource - Sahara, Kalahari etc aside - we have lots and tend to squander it keeping lawns green, cars washed, fountains founting etc etc.

Water also benefits from automatic recycling - very simplistically it rains, everything gets wet, surplus flows into into rivers, then to sea. The sun evaporates surface water, it forms clouds and rains again.

Were it actually scarce we would mandate all new properties fitted with rainwater recovery systems and provide grants to retrofit old properties. We don't!

Oil is demonstrably a scarce resource, and likely to become even scarcer.

Water is a scarce resource if you consider the amount of fresh water available vs how much is already used by humans. Sea water is abundant, but it needs to be desalinated and filtered of other contaminents (e.g. plastics) in order to split off the oxygen and hydrogen. To do that requires a LOT of energy.

There is a reason why even in rainy UK we still have hosepipe bans, and in the many drier parts of the US (especially California) fresh water extraction is becoming a big problem.

Around the world, the use of fresh water is overused for agricultural and industrial purposes, leading to shortages for people for drinking or taking water out of acquifers at a higher rate than it can be replaced.

I'm not saying that oil isn't a scarce resource, but these firms and eco groups are IMHO pushing fictions about how green or soon these technologies can beput in place - it's more about getting huge government grants because the politicians are under pressure by the media and activists as well asthe WEF to push this forward at a high rate, mainly because they will financially benefit from it to a huge degree.

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Terry W

Domestic demand for water in the UK is about 1.5% of total rainfall. That required for hydrogen production is ~1.5% of domestic consumption - overall completely and utterly inconsequential.

Most rainfall 98%+ either evaporates to begin the cycle again, flows into rivers and then to sea, soaks in and replenishes underground aquifers etc. Even that used directly for farming ultimately finds it way back into the water cycle.

Hosepipe bans are are due to the variability of rainfall over the year. So it is unsurprising that in some years given weather variability that bans are needed in some areas.

The problem is not lack of rainfall but infrastructure needed to store and pump it, and maintenance to reduce leaks. If it were more important the investment would be made.

BTW I am an advocate of batteries not hydrogen or "green methanol" but we should get the facts straight whatever our conclusions.

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - concrete

I agree with most of what Terry has to say. he puts a good case with what appears to be well researched information. The problem I have with batteries is several fold. Firstly they take a lot of energy and carbon to manufacture. They are heavy and at present have a shortish life span. My point is Hydrogen can be used on a converted ICE vehicle instead of scrapping it for an EV. Surely the carbo gain outweighs the the carbon use. In any event I am sure there will be many possible solutions put forward in the near future.

Cheers Concrete

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Bolt

I agree with most of what Terry has to say. he puts a good case with what appears to be well researched information. The problem I have with batteries is several fold. Firstly they take a lot of energy and carbon to manufacture. They are heavy and at present have a shortish life span. My point is Hydrogen can be used on a converted ICE vehicle instead of scrapping it for an EV. Surely the carbo gain outweighs the the carbon use. In any event I am sure there will be many possible solutions put forward in the near future.

Cheers Concrete

I doubt there will be a change of mind as far as Hydrogen is concerned, due to the worries about mining Lithium and its affects on humans, but another point was made by Government.

the amount of batteries needed for the volume of cars needed would take years to mine and make, and recycling is not as easy as made out

so the research into easier ways to produce Hydrogen and transport it, is going on, so battery and Hydrogen could well be 50/50 eventually assuming the research carries on as it is. I don`t doubt it will work out in the end, the determination is there to sort it

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - Engineer Andy

Domestic demand for water in the UK is about 1.5% of total rainfall. That required for hydrogen production is ~1.5% of domestic consumption - overall completely and utterly inconsequential.

Most rainfall 98%+ either evaporates to begin the cycle again, flows into rivers and then to sea, soaks in and replenishes underground aquifers etc. Even that used directly for farming ultimately finds it way back into the water cycle.

Hosepipe bans are are due to the variability of rainfall over the year. So it is unsurprising that in some years given weather variability that bans are needed in some areas.

The problem is not lack of rainfall but infrastructure needed to store and pump it, and maintenance to reduce leaks. If it were more important the investment would be made.

BTW I am an advocate of batteries not hydrogen or "green methanol" but we should get the facts straight whatever our conclusions.

Rainfall is not equal over the UK - many areas regularly get effective droughts (and not just in summer), and we currently have no distribution system capable of pumping excess water from rainy areas like Scotland to drier parts. Far worse in many other nations or parts thereof (e.g. California).

I agree, and have said many times on other threads, that hydrogen 'extraction', storage and distribution would be a big challenge to say the least, because it needs to be stored under high pressure and significantly cooled - both hazardous, expensive and very energy intensive.

We'd need huge amounts of PV and wind turbines to cover that, plus sufficient backup in case (as it often does) the wind doesn't blow, blows too hard or it's nighttime. That in istefl is a huge problem - the space and infrastructure, plus the effects on locals and the environment/views and use of (already under pressure) cruicial farmland space we need to be more self-sufficient on food pruction.

Moving hydrogen around (and safely) is also a logistical nightmare and something that has as yet not really been looked at, plus the safety and security of that and storage (a great target for terrorists, etc). The last thing we need is another Buncefield or Lebanon incident but with hydrogen under pressure - especially if it were near natural gas pipes.

My general issue with a lot of the 'green' ideas doing the rounds and been heavily pushed for, especially at the moment, is that they aren't thought through other than concepts or on a small scale in favourable locations and often with significant amounts of taxpayers' money being recklessly thrown at such projects, which always seems to end up in very rich people's pockets with little long term gain for those nearer the bottom of society.

We had similar 'knee-jerk' policies in the past, like 'the dash to gas' for electricity generation and going to diesel on cars, and both have casued significant long term problems in society (making heating homes very expensive because gas is more rapidly running out and pollution/health problems associated with diesel particulates and the effects of dieselgate on prices and reliability of 10-15 years worth of cars).

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - mss1tw

There's loads of firms looking into feasible hydrogen storage.

AFC, Ceres, Proton Motor Power Systems, ITM, Linde...

Synthetic climate-neutral fuels (eFuels). - edlithgow

Carbon dioxide is really cheap, so the incentive to remove it industrially from the air for use in synfuels just isn't there.

This isn't a show-stopper, because you could just, like, buy it.

If you bought it from a brewery it would already have been removed from the air by fields of waving golden barley which you could use in your advertising.

Drink and Drive

(I dunno what breweries do with CO2 these days. They used to just vent it to atmosphere. I understand the biggest CO2 user is the oil industry who pump it underground to enhance oil recovery)

As usual, the large problems are economic and political rather than technical. This stuff will presumably work in a petrol engine. (China already uses a lot of methanol in vehicle fuel but they make it from coal, probably with maximum dirtiness). Since petrol (IC?) engines are due to be banned by many European governments, such a shrinking market might not justify the investment.

Might depend on what the Americans do. Something stupid, probably.

(The water shortage argument doesn't...er...hold water. The quantity is going to be relatively tiny, and in any case if you needed to you could electrolyse sea water, though you'd have to do something with the chlorine)

Edited by edlithgow on 08/12/2020 at 00:38