All - EV Charging - mcb100
A new motorway service station being built at the M6/M1 junction is receiving some of the first 350kW rapid chargers in the country, 12 of them.
This is going to mean that a new Zoë, for example, will get a 0-80% charge in something like 7 minutes. Hardly time to nip to the gents/ladies and it’s good to go again.

Edited by mcb100 on 26/10/2020 at 08:51

All - EV Charging - gordonbennet

Not heard about this new service station, do you have a link perchance?

All - EV Charging - mcb100
motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/Rugby
All - EV Charging - Bromptonaut

That's M6/J1 where the A426 provides a link to Rugby or via the A5 Gibbet Junction and Lutterworth to the M1 @ J20.

Construction is in progress.

All - EV Charging - daveyjp

To get full advantage of a 350kw charger you need a vehicle which can be charged at that rate.

At the moment thats not many, but these facilities are needed now as the numbers will increase.

A local car dealership is about to install 2 or 3 of these chargers to futureproof their site as they will need to be able to recharge new and customer vehicles.

Edited by daveyjp on 26/10/2020 at 09:28

All - EV Charging - mcb100

That's a fair point - I happened to be looking at a Zoe when I typed it, and knew the battery capacity and was able to do the maths.

All - EV Charging - gordonbennet
motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/Rugby

Much obliged for that.

Not a services i will use at any normal times of the day, M6 jct1 can barely cope with normal traffic levels.

Those who have made the mistake of using Bishops Stortford MSA on a Friday afternoon will have an idea of what's likely to happen.

All - EV Charging - Bromptonaut

Those who have made the mistake of using Bishops Stortford MSA on a Friday afternoon will have an idea of what's likely to happen.

The one I've had most trouble getting off is Thurrock. Wet Sunday afternoon and East London was migrating to Lakeside.

All - EV Charging - gordonbennet

The one I've had most trouble getting off is Thurrock. Wet Sunday afternoon and East London was migrating to Lakeside.

Yes another one to avoid.

All - EV Charging - kiss (keep it simple)

Charging a small battery at that rate is likely to result in a lot of heat in the battery. I thing the Zoe would be good to go alright, good to go up in smoke!

All - EV Charging - Miniman777

I live 10 miles from this new site, and am gobsmacked a requirement wasn't to dual the A426 for the mile or so from Gibbet Hill roundabout with the A5 as it is from the retail parks in Rugby. Also, would have been useful, given the expansion ongoing at Magna Park and for DIRFT 3, to provide a separate slip roads for traffic leaving/joining A426/A5 towards Hinckley or Rugby, thus avoiding roundabout which is too small and congested for the traffic it handles.

Myopic planning......

All - EV Charging - brum

The Zoe has a maximum charge rate of 22kW, far short of 350kW

www.drivingelectric.com/renault/zoe/402/renault-zo...g

All - EV Charging - Bromptonaut

The Zoe has a maximum charge rate of 22kW, far short of 350kW

www.drivingelectric.com/renault/zoe/402/renault-zo...g

Latest version says 50kw but still a long way from 350

www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehicles/zoe.html?

All - EV Charging - mcb100

As I said above, I was looking at a Zoe at the time of writing the post. But my point remains that for cars able to take a faster charge, the anti-EV claims of having to hang about at service stations for hours are diminishing.

All - EV Charging - Engineer Andy

As I said above, I was looking at a Zoe at the time of writing the post. But my point remains that for cars able to take a faster charge, the anti-EV claims of having to hang about at service stations for hours are diminishing.

Not so fast, mate. Installing a handful of those chargers will I'm sure be great for those who can afford an expensive car that can handle that charging rate, but I wonder how the local grid/site infrastructure will cope if 20%, 30% or a LOT more of all cars are EVs?

I wonder who's going to pay for this and all the other installations? Everyone else paying even more inflated prices at the eateries and shops? No thank you. Let the EV owners pay the full cost via access charges.

At present, the installations probably account for way under 1% of the cars that use the sites per day.

Besides, very few EVs on offer today would be able to cope with that charging rate.

Those sceptics (not luddites) amongst us believe many of EVs advocates are getting ahead of themselves in many respects.

All - EV Charging - Bromptonaut

Although these chargers are advertised as being capable of 350kw that's 'future proofing' for models coming down the road that will be able to handle that rate of charge. Presumably they'll also be capable of charging current 'mainstream' electrics like the Zoe or my daughter's e-208. There's some information here:

www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/101586/uk-s-first-3...t

The Rugby site seems to be a commercial development and it won't work if coffee or sarnies cost a lot more than at Corley or Watford Gap. The article above quotes an average of £7 a charge, maybe more at higher charge rates.

Is there any evidence of subsidy for the infrastructure?

All - EV Charging - pd

Who paid for all the petrol stations? And who pays for the pumps and maintenance of the pumps? It is not as if they all came about by magic.

All this sort of infrastructure takes a long time to build and it will progress relatively slowly but it wasn't as if the refining capacity, distribution and pumping facilities of petrol and diesel were built over night for nowt.

All - EV Charging - Andrew-T

There won't be much space left for colossal kit-build sheds in this part of the world soon. Maybe the existing ones are full of stuff not being moved on ?

All - EV Charging - mcb100

I'm not sure how EV advocates are 'getting ahead of themselves', when plans are made and infrastructure is put in place for future models. The Porsche Taycan will charge at 350kW, and more mundane models will follow at similar charging speeds.

EV's are coming - even Toyota, which has resisted for years, already have a BEV Lexus and 10 more fully electric model in the pipeline.

So far as electricity generation is concerned, the most oft-quoted figure is 6kW of electricity to refine every gallon of petrol or diesel - it'd be interesting to see whether a modern EV will go further on 6kW than its equivalent ICE will go on a gallon.

All - EV Charging - Ethan Edwards

IMO The technology makes no sense unless there is a universal battery easily swapped by machine at the "refuelling" stop. Since manufacturers haven't made swapping the battery easy , nor have many many swap stops been built. I agree its a technology that's going nowhere for most of us peasants. The rich elites however... seems to me to be a huge retrograde social step.

All - EV Charging - bolt

IMO The technology makes no sense unless there is a universal battery easily swapped by machine at the "refuelling" stop. Since manufacturers haven't made swapping the battery easy

They wont do that due to the weight of the batteries, thats why they are working on fast charging, though that comes with its own problems.

as with Mobile phone batteries fast charging means thicker insulator between cells to shift the heat as fast as possible, imagine how many cells will be lost in a car unless made up for in car space, faster the charge- the faster batteries overheat

All - EV Charging - madf

I'm not sure how EV advocates are 'getting ahead of themselves', when plans are made and infrastructure is put in place for future models. The Porsche Taycan will charge at 350kW, and more mundane models will follow at similar charging speeds.

EV's are coming - even Toyota, which has resisted for years, already have a BEV Lexus and 10 more fully electric model in the pipeline.

So far as electricity generation is concerned, the most oft-quoted figure is 6kW of electricity to refine every gallon of petrol or diesel - it'd be interesting to see whether a modern EV will go further on 6kW than its equivalent ICE will go on a gallon.

I have seen the" refinery uses lots of electricity " argument before.

We import approx 27% of our total petroleum fuel usage.. so saving fuel usage will not save 100% of refining energy.

Strangely enough, none of the proponents of the "we'll save energy through not burning fuel " ever mention this.

So I ignore them - what else have they forgotten or ignored.?

All - EV Charging - mcb100

I'm not bothered where the fuel is refined - unless overseas lands have technology not yet invented here it will still consume electricity to produce petrol or diesel.

All - EV Charging - bolt

I'm not bothered where the fuel is refined - unless overseas lands have technology not yet invented here it will still consume electricity to produce petrol or diesel.

and other chemicals that a refinery extracts from crude oil, so we will still need the electricity for the chemicals.

All - EV Charging - Terry W

5 years ago there were two options for EV charging :

  • battery swap which allowed quick change and needed standard packs, etc, or
  • plug it in, wait several hours

We now have cars with battery packs that can be charged to 80% in approx 30 minutes. 350kw chargers are probably overkill right now, but the future of interchangable battery packs looks dim!

All - EV Charging - madf

OOPS maybe electric cars are going to be in difficulty

"Thu, 5 November 2020, 7:35 am GMT·1-min read

LONDON (Reuters) - National Grid has issued an electricity margin notice (EMN) for 4.30-6.30 p.m. (1630-1830 GMT) on Thursday signalling a shortage in the network's supply buffer and asking generators to make more power available.

It is the second such request made in as many days by National Grid, which is responsible for ensuring supply and demand are balanced in Britain's energy systems.

"There are continued tight margins on the electricity system owing to factors including the weather, demand and the availability of generators," National Grid Electricity System Operator (ESO) said on Twitter.

A notice to the market said the grid was seeking an extra 466 megawatts of capacity.

That looks ominous forthe coming winter,mro."

Gridwatch shows minimal solar and wind power.

All - EV Charging - kiss (keep it simple)

On the contrary, electric cars could help. Their batteries (when plugged in to the grid) could be used to supply some of that power. There's a Tesla near my house which seems to spend all of its time on the drive. I can't think of any time when I have gone by the house and it hasn't been there. That's a good few kW for a couple of hours.

All - EV Charging - madf

Do you seriously think people are going to put their car on charge overnight and be happy to find they cannot use it the next day because it has ben feeding the grid?

And demand at night is not the problem.. it is 4 to 11pm in winter .People heating houses, meals etc

All - EV Charging - kiss (keep it simple)

I was referring to the time as quoted, 16.30-18.30. The car would then re-charge overnight. I would imagine there would be options such as don't take any charge at all or leave at least 50% for that unexpected trip to the shops.

It's not a long term storage solution, more about load levelling.

All - EV Charging - Engineer Andy

Do you seriously think people are going to put their car on charge overnight and be happy to find they cannot use it the next day because it has ben feeding the grid?

And demand at night is not the problem.. it is 4 to 11pm in winter .People heating houses, meals etc

Indeed - and made worse now that during the daytime, more people are at home whilst a good number of workplaces are partially open, which means both need power and heat, whereas before it was, for many, one or the other.

It's not as though we can heat half an open-plan office or house and use them effectively.

More fuel used during the daytime, and to an extent in the evening, e.g. cinemas [up until today] had to be fully heated despite being only 10% full compared to normal, similarly restaurants and pubs, so less in reserve when its needed at peak times.

All - EV Charging - sammy1

E.ON offers its customers " 100% renewable electricity as standard" how can they make this statement when there is no wind and sunshine and even if there is how can they separate their energy from the rest of the stuff coming down the national grid! Customers could end up with contaminated electric from a nuclear power station! Maybe in the event of a power cut you could eventually use your EV battery to power your house!!

All - EV Charging - Ethan Edwards

I sell my PV solar power to Eon. They are big players in the micro generation market. You can sell your excess power to them but not be a buying customer.

All - EV Charging - Terry W

The energy industry has sought to fit homes with smart meters - albeit not without well publicised problems.

But the technology can provide for charging by time of consumption - possibly by the minute, but certainly in hourly segments.

It is also entirely likely that EVs will be internet connected. If plugged in, it will be able to charge the battery when there is excess supply, and prices are lower. Conversely if the wind doen't blow, the sun doesn't shine and demand is very high, prices will be high.

Consumers will have the option whether to run their household cheaply using power drawn from the EV, or supply power to the network, or simply have the EV fully charged.

This won't suit everybody, but is relatively straightfroward. For those with own drive and power supply, and predictable travel needs for the following day, it is easy. For those living without easy driveway and power access (eg: converted flat in urban area) it will not be feasible.

None of this is pie in the sky - it is all entirely feeasible today.

All - EV Charging - madf

For information from a company I follow

Invinity Energy Systems plc (AIM:IES), manufacturer of vanadium flow batteries for the large-scale energy storage requirements of businesses, industry and electricity networks, is pleased to announce that the European Marine Energy Centre (EMEC) has purchased a 1.8 MWh vanadium flow battery (VFB) system for delivery in 2021.

EMEC will use the system at their facility on the Isle of Eday, located in the Orkney Islands off the northeast coast of Scotland, in a project that has received £1.8m of funding from the Scottish Government via Highlands and Islands Enterprise. Approximately two-thirds of the funding amount relates to the Invinity battery system, ancillary components and associated services.

In a first for the technology, Invinity's VS3 vanadium flow battery system will smooth output from tidal electric generation and provide consistent power to EMEC's hydrogen production plant. The complete system, combining tidal power, robust energy storage, and electrolyser technology, is expected to create large amounts of hydrogen every year without emitting carbon at any stage of the process. This so-called 'green' hydrogen is seen as an important transformative fuel as the world moves to cut greenhouse gas emissions.

Invinity's flow batteries were chosen for this application due to their ability to perform multiple cycles per day without degradation. This is important as tidal generation is variable, with two high and two low tides occurring each day. Batteries coupled with tidal generation can be required to cycle up to four charge-discharge cycles per day which can strain other battery technologies.

tinyurl.com/yykhjerm

All - EV Charging - Andrew-T

<< The complete system, combining tidal power, robust energy storage, and electrolyser technology, is expected to create large amounts of hydrogen every year without emitting carbon at any stage of the process. >>

All clever stuff. Luckily I don't think we can expect the UK's shorelines to be scattered with these plants (plus thousands of turbines offshore) if only because vanadium is not hugely plentiful.

All - EV Charging - misar

<< The complete system, combining tidal power, robust energy storage, and electrolyser technology, is expected to create large amounts of hydrogen every year without emitting carbon at any stage of the process. >>

All clever stuff. Luckily I don't think we can expect the UK's shorelines to be scattered with these plants (plus thousands of turbines offshore) if only because vanadium is not hugely plentiful.

I don't think shortage of vanadium is presently a limiting factor. If you want you can read everything about it here, including batteries.

All - EV Charging - madf

<< The complete system, combining tidal power, robust energy storage, and electrolyser technology, is expected to create large amounts of hydrogen every year without emitting carbon at any stage of the process. >>

All clever stuff. Luckily I don't think we can expect the UK's shorelines to be scattered with these plants (plus thousands of turbines offshore) if only because vanadium is not hugely plentiful.

"Vanadium is mined mostly in South Africa, north-western China, and eastern Russia. In 2013 these three countries mined more than 97% of the 79,000 tonnes of produced vanadium. Vanadium is also present in bauxite and in deposits of crude oil, coal, oil shale, and tar sands."

tinyurl.com/y2n8govg

Invinity-Bushveld partnership renting out flow batteries’ electrolyte to lower upfront cost

tinyurl.com/yxswhfyr

(the vanadium used in the electrolyte is 100% recyclable.)

Edited by madf on 09/11/2020 at 10:20

All - EV Charging - Bromptonaut

E.ON offers its customers " 100% renewable electricity as standard" how can they make this statement when there is no wind and sunshine and even if there is how can they separate their energy from the rest of the stuff coming down the national grid!

There's an explanation here:

help.so.energy/support/solutions/articles/70000462...n-

I guess another option is offsetting - planting trees for example.

All - EV Charging - madf

E.ON offers its customers " 100% renewable electricity as standard" how can they make this statement when there is no wind and sunshine and even if there is how can they separate their energy from the rest of the stuff coming down the national grid!

There's an explanation here:

help.so.energy/support/solutions/articles/70000462...n-

I guess another option is offsetting - planting trees for example.

I have a Shell Card. I get detailed emails of tree planting etc to offset the carbon used with my petrol purchases.

All - EV Charging - Terry W

Tree planting as a way to offset carbon emissions is just a simplistic short term con trick.

A link to a US web site estimates that the average american adds ~16 tonnes of CO2 pa. There is a simple calculator which I used and showed me at ~12 tonnes. The US is a profligate user of energy, but assuming in the UK 10 tonnes is the average.

https://savingnature.com/offset-your-carbon-footprint-carbon-calculator/

  • eventually they die (50-200 years) and return CO2 to the environment
  • it takes appox 600 trees to offset 10 tonnes of CO2
  • 600 trees need approx 1.25 acres for planting
  • there is ~60m acres total in the UK
  • so in one year if everybody offset their CO2 emissions by tree planting, the entire country would be covered!

We could endlessly debate which trees are faster growing. Whether the density of planting can be increased. Whether they would be cut down long before their full term for "green" wood pellet generation.

It is all completely fatuous!

All - EV Charging - Andrew-T

We could endlessly debate which trees are faster growing. Whether the density of planting can be increased. Whether they would be cut down long before their full term for "green" wood pellet generation.

It is all completely fatuous!

I wouldn't go as far as 'fatuous', but it is certainly a wool-pulling exercise. I think we all agree that while humans burn fossilised carbon (very old trees) into CO2, living trees convert that back to oxygen for us. Unfortunately we are harvesting living trees at the same time so that we can plant silly things like soya and sugarcane, some of which is immediately turned into ethanol for burning back to CO2, or fed to animals which convert some of it to methane.

I suppose to maximise the CO2-absorbing effect we should concentrate on active forestry, where trees are harvested when fully adult and then replaced with new saplings. Replacing lost trees is important - global CO2 in the atmosphere has been rising for well over 100 years and we should try to offset that.

 

Ask Honest John

Value my car