The Speed Camera Thread - Volume 11 - Mark (RLBS)

THREAD CLOSED, PLEASE CONTINUE DISCUSSION IN

"The Speed Camera Thread - - Volume 12"


www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=14...4

For the continued discussion of all things pertaining to Speed Cameras.

There is no need to repeat anything since earlier volumes will not be deleted, although I am quite sure that this will not stop you.


Mark (RLBS)
Moderator at Work

mailto:mark_moderator@honestjohn.co.uk
Speeders prefer workshop to points - pdc {P}
Education rather than persecution? Never!

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/2956008.stm

PS - isn't it time the BBC updated their picture library?
Speeders prefer workshop to points - Altea Ego
Oh WOW, three points or three hours off work - thats a tough choice
Speeders prefer workshop to points - martint123
One rule for them and one rule for us.
(one of the 'badly' parked scamera cars)

www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12338271,00.h...l
Daily Mails mobile speed camera photo ! - Steve G
Did any see the photo on the front page of the Daily Mail today.
For those who did not..
Someone took a photo of a 'active' mobile speed camera van parked with two wheels on the pavement across double yellow lines and blocking a cycle path.
'Hypocritical' was the headline.
Not a DM fan but this really made me smile.
For anyone in thr dorset area a warning...
The 'Dorset s************ partnership' mobile speed vans seem to be using stealth tactics now. The A37 unit has moved 300 yds up the road from its usual spot and is hidden behind bushes.The van parks down a side road.
Be careful........
Daily Mails mobile speed camera photo ! - Dynamic Dave
It\'s already been mentioned in the Speed Camera Thread, where, btw, this thread will be moved to later on.
Daily Mails mobile speed camera photo ! - Reg the Rover
Yes, I would like to add a comment about the Dorset mobile camera - I've actually seen it mounted on its tripod very low under the road traffic signs between the posts at a 'T' junction. It was in a national speed limit zone (60mph) on a fast section of the A37 leading to Dorchester. The biggest problem with speed limits is the inappropriate application of them, leading to them being held in disrepute with drivers. For example, driving towards a hazard a 50mph is applied approx 1/2 mile before hand on a dual carriageway to slow down traffic - no problem with this - but what about in the opposite direction when driving away from the hazard the speed limit is still at 50 mph for the 1/2 mile up to where it starts on the other side. Why does the speed limit apply in a 'straight line' across both carrigeways?
Daily Mails mobile speed camera photo ! - Berkshire Whizz
Interestingly, i read a newspaper article this week in which West Mercia Constabulary have announced that they are painting their mobile speed camera vans yellow, \"to make them more visible\". They also publish their sites of operation in advance. I don\'t think this force could be accused of \"stealth tactics\". And, IMHO, if you drive irresponsibly and get caught, tough pink fluffy dice!
Speeders prefer workshop to points - Dwight Van Driver
Whilst the Police Chief may not be fully conversant with the law for in the majority of cases involving parking restrictions ( i.e. obstruction DYL etc ) there is invariably an exemption for vehicles used for police purposes.

As to danger - pedestrian/cyclist travelling at slow speed.?

However the officers on the check have done little to enhance the standing of the Police from where they have parked, but again was this the only place that they could have paid attention to a problem? I dunno. I don't have all the facts.

DVD
Speeders prefer workshop to points - pdc {P}
I remember seeing a program on BBC1 last year which was about bad parking, and there is a group of guys in London who travel around in a big American car, looking for examples of bad police parking. It was most amusing to see them complaining at the front desk and the officers having to go out and move their illegally parked cars.

One officer was heard to say "how am I supposed to do my job if I can't park there?". Imagine what an officer booking someone for the same offence would say if given that response.
Speeders prefer workshop to points - jeds
Re: Speed tax van parked on cycle lane/pavement etc.

I live ten minutes from the spot where this picture was taken so I know it very well.

They usually sit on the small triangle of grass which can be seen in the photo further along the road - so no reason to be parked where they are.

What you can't see is that they are pointing their camera at a dual carriageway flyover where there are no pavements or junctions etc. and 50 to 60 mph in ordinary conditions would be perfectly safe.

Further back along the road it is a very dangerous road - it was a complete cock up in the build, has split levels which weren't supposed to be there and there have been many accidents over the years. For this reason an unusually slow (for an otherwise full size dual carriageway) 40mph limit is imposed on the whole road. And quite rightly so.

So where do they set up their cameras? On the part of the road that is hazardous to drive above 40mph - to catch dangerous drivers speeding in the built up area. No. Wouldn't be any good because most drivers naturally slow down in this area. And those that don't deserve what they get.

Or do they set up in the non pedestrian area, pointing at a vehicle-only flyover where the road is open, non pedestrian and perfectly safe and natural to drive slightly faster.

I expect you can guess.
three times the speed limit ... - Ian (Cape Town)
Arrive Alive officials arrested a 23-year-old Cravenby man caught speeding at 198km/h in a 60km/h zone on Vanguard Drive on Sunday morning - the highest speed recorded in Cape Town this year.
... warned to appear in the Goodwood magistrate's court on Monday morning where he faces charges of reckless driving and speeding.

On Sunday Ludick told the Cape Times the man had been racing another motorist in his BMW on Vanguard Drive when he was trapped by a pro laser device at an intersection near to the Epping Fire Department.

The device did not catch the other motorist, he added.

He added that magistrates had been asked to impose heavier sentences for traffic violations so that they could act as a deterrent.
Motorway Speed Cameras - BMDUBYA
Taken from the BBC Bristol website

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/3036047.stm

New M4 speed cameras

A new type of camera is being introduced on the M4 to monitor speeding motorists.

The equipment can calculate a driver's average speed over a one-mile section of the motorway.

The cameras, which are on information boards between Bristol and Newport, have been on trial and are due to go live on July 14.

They are linked to a control room at the DVLA which will be able to issue fines and points based on the evidence.
Motorway Speed Cameras - Dynamic Dave
BMDUBYA, that link doesn't seem to point to what you're refering to.
Motorway Speed Cameras - BMDUBYA
Apologies to all, the BBC have removed the link. Basically as you can see from the story, it looks as though the Police are going to be using those new cameras to catch us on the motorway now. (Crying in my coffee). If I find the link again, I will repost.
Motorway Speed Cameras - Dwight Van Driver
SPECS (DVDD) Cameras

SPECS cameras use number plate recognition technology. The registration numbers of every passing vehicle are stored in a series of cameras sited on a stretch of road; as the precise distance between the cameras is known, and the precise time at which every number plate passes by, the average speed of every vehicle can easily be calculated. Tickets will be issued to every vehicle travelling at a speed over a pre-determined threshold.

SPECS cameras do not 'flash' at any vehicles, and can work in all weather conditions. They are already live in some parts of the country, and usage is set to expand.

DVD
Motorway Speed Cameras - scotty
a pre-determined threshold ...

I'm sure it's been asked before, but does anyone know what the threshold values are?

Went through a trap on the M6 the other day at below 75 but over 70 - should I expect a letter??

LS
Motorway Speed Cameras - smokie
Scotty - SPECS are already in use on parts of the M6 so it might be your average between 2, 3 or more cameras rather than your speed past a single camera.
Motorway Speed Cameras - Altea Ego
a pre-determined threshold ...
I'm sure it's been asked before, but does anyone know what
the threshold values are?
Went through a trap on the M6 the other day at
below 75 but over 70 - should I expect a letter??
LS


Scotty as long as you kept below 75 MPH thro all the sets of cameras I think its highly unlikely. Dont know what car you were driving but i bet there is a good chance it over reads and you probably didnt do much over 70 in reality
Motorway Speed Cameras - Armitage Shanks{P}
There was a lot of publicity earlier this year when SPECS cameras went 'live' in Nottingham or Northampton, I can't remember which. Since then the only comment I have seen in the papers is that they aren't taking enough in fines to justify the 6 figure cost of installing them. So, this implies that speeds have been reduced which one would have thought was the aim of the exercise. The fact that it is claimed that "they aren't making enough money" seems to support the arguments that these devices are to raise money not reduce speeds.
Motorway Speed Cameras - scotty
Scotty as long as you kept below 75 MPH thro all
the sets of cameras I think its highly unlikely. Dont know
what car you were driving but i bet there is a
good chance it over reads and you probably didnt do much
over 70 in reality

OK, thanks. It was a single van sat on a motorway bridge somewhere up past Lancaster. I was driving one them new primera things at the time.
LS
Motorway Speed Cameras - pdc {P}
Are the installation costs really that high? I ask because over the past 2 years temporary SPECS systems have been installed in most of the roadworks that have taken place between J15 and J24 of the M6. If they do cost that much then surely they wouldn't be used temporarily in roadworks.

The cameras look like normal survelance cameras but are identifiable because they are atop upturned L shaped blue posts, and where the cross piece joins the upright there is what looks like a cutout M in the metal. The cameras themselves are yellow, and have two large infra-red illuminators.

I have got great satisfaction from moving down a lane to let the guy tailgating me at 50mph past to see him accelerate and go through the series of cameras just because he is looking out for the gatso. They have started to strap them to the back of the gantrys that cross all 3 lanes now.
Camera Vandalism - Orson {P}
On my weekly journey from Sheffield to Norwich, I noticed that all of the speed cameras - both Gatsos and those Truvelo forward facing things - had been vandalised, either by being spraypainted, or set on fire, or both. Now, whilst not wishing to condone criminal damage, is this the start of a fightback against stupidly placed cameras that do nothing for safety but are simply cash cows?

I have no problem with doing 20 or even 10 outside a school, but I do resent being forced to do 48 alongside an airfield in the middle of Nowheresville, Lincolnshire at 930 on a Sunday night with no-one on the road for miles. Lincolnshire roads are very dangerous, but this, I feel, is much more down to the inhabitants and tractors that regularly bumble along major trunk roads in vehicles that are clearly, even to my untrained eyes, unroadworthy. Instead of spending money on cameras, they should do something about either widening the roads, or simply turning some of them into 3 lanes with alternating priority for the middle lane.

O
SPECS - pdc {P}
More on SPECS at

www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/specs.htm
Warning! New Cameras M25 - Steve S
I'd appreciate it if this thread could stand alone for a while before being added, if necessary, to the camera thread.

I noticed some ordinary yellow and not so yellow cameras sprang up last night. They are situated around the NE section. Keep a look out from A10 Enfield (j25) to the M11 Harlow(j27).

They look like they may be there for future roadworks maybe? Can a single Gatso cover 3/4 lanes?

Anyway, they had hoods on this morning with "not in service" on them but I gather they are off now so be careful anyone out that way.

Does anyone know about this and whether it's permanent?
Warning! New Cameras M25 - Altea Ego
Yup single Gatso can cover three lanes as long as the lines are painted on the road. Mobile (or dustbin) Gatso used a lot in temporary roadworks, Loads on the M1 roadworks in Northhampton. Funny tho most are facing south bound.
Warning! New Cameras M25 - Marcos{P}
Just to let you know my radar detector didn't pick them up so they are not working yet but that could all change by tomorrow.
Warning! New Cameras M25 - Steve S
Looks like they may be in for roadworks if this link is correct:-

www.highways.gov.uk/roads/area/05/works/m25_sphere...t
Warning! New Cameras M25 - sean
Be careful. Be very careful. If these are what I think they are they have just been sent to you from the M60.

They are specs digital cameras, that have brought fines of £26 million in the 3 months they were used here.

First one reads your front number plate. Second one, up to a mile away, does the same. They compute time difference and at a known distance apart evaluate your speed.

Presto, brown envelope on the mat. You're done and you saw no lines on the road no flashes or anything. Very clever.

We had 13 of these cameras on the M60 and I read on the camera site ( no, can't remember link, but you e-mail them when you spot a new camera) that they've now gone to the M25 "to improve contractor safety during some roadworks operations".
Warning! New Cameras M25 - smokie
"gone to the M25 "to improve contractor safety during some roadworks operations".

And if you've ever stood on the hard shoulder of a busy motorway you'll understand what they mean. Frightening experience.
Warning! New Cameras M25 - v8man
Ride a motorbike! The Specs cameras are stuffed and you can have a smug look on your face. The M20 near the chunnel terminal has them as well.
Warning! New Cameras M25 - PST
Saw a sign at the last minute ths morning. It said major roadworks and it was either the 12th June for 17 weeks or 17th June for 12 weeks - not sure which. And there must be something like 6 cameras in a 3 mile stretch going anticlockwise - still hooded this evening.

Paul
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - Mr Fox
Hello,

I was caught by a mobile camera, doing 48mph in a 40 zone.

The thing is, the unmarked van containing the camera was parked on the grass verge beside the road, in a location which is a normal dual carriageway, where the limit becomes 70mph shortly after, it seems like a blatant scam and naturally I am unhappy.

Because it is a company car I can't pretend I was not driving as they already have my name, I am wondering about the legality of the police camera being placed there, and what the legislation is about such cameras.

Cheers !
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - Miat
make an official complaint, recorded delivery, against th3e chief constable for misuse of police resources, malwhateverthewordis in public office and copy to the local newspapers

get the abd.org.uk involved

visit your mp and explain your plight

plead not guilty

sadly you will probably be found guilty in this anti-car pro crime country, however fight back

follow the van driver round for a few weeks taking photos of how he parks/any dangerous driving he may do, make complaints - get the pictures in the paper

etc
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - sean
Sorry to be blunt, mate, but you're stuffed!

We've just had all this in Huddersfield, with a Target police transit parked with all 4 wheels on the footpath in almost identical location to that you describe. Because it's a "Safety Exercise" they have carte blanche to do so.

Since you agree that you were doing 48 in a 40, I don't hold a chance of you escaping.

Sorry mate.
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - Daedalus
Sean,

Whereabouts in Huddersfield is this being done? As a fellow resident it always pays to know about the local spots!

Bill
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - wd 40
Here's some advice that will ensure it doesn't happen again. OBSERVE THE SPEED LIMIT.

If a shoplifter tried to weasel there way out of a conviction because they didn't see the security cameras, you'd laugh in there face, so grow up and take responsibility for your actions

Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - Miat

Crazed/Miat,

As I recall you threw your teddybear in the corner and stormed out last time you were here.

Please do so again, your incessant anti-police rants, and they are no better than rants, are no more attractive now then they were before.

Mark.
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - andymc {P}
Wouldn't always post this, but seeing it was 48 in a 40 on a dual carriageway (as opposed to 50 in a 30 near a housing estate/school)
www.safespeed.org.uk/unsigned.html
andymc
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - J Bonington Jagworth
"..they already have my name"

Who does, the police or your firm? If you haven't had the paperwork yet, then read andymc's link and don't sign anything you don't have to! The NIP has to be sent within 14 days, too.
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - Dwight Van Driver
Mr Fox.

To a degree the Police can put the camera just where they want to.

The speed restriction starts at the sign and ends at the derestiction sign.

Your foot was on the pedal - with respect stop moaning and start sorting to be relieved of 60 coins and receive 3 points on the licence which if you want to keep observe the limits.

DVD
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - Mark (RLBS)
>>it seems like a blatant scam

Oh really ? More blatant than 48 in a 40 or is this only one way and you are allowed to break the rules whilst the police are not ?

You were speeding, you got caught. Get over yourself, it wasn't the fault of the police.
Advice Please - Caught by Mobile Camera - pdc {P}
The thing is, the unmarked van containing the camera was parked
on the grass verge beside the road, in a location which
is a normal dual carriageway, where the limit becomes 70mph shortly
after, it seems like a blatant scam and naturally I am
unhappy.


3 weeks after passing my test I was caught by a mobile trap placed AT the change in limit sign, in Hodnet, Shropshire. I knew that the change in limit, from 30 to NSL was there and had started to accelerate, when out stepped the police man.
Warning! New Cameras M25 - pdc {P}
I noticed some ordinary yellow and not so yellow cameras sprang
up last night. They are situated around the NE section.
Keep a look out from A10 Enfield (j25) to the
M11 Harlow(j27).
They look like they may be there for future roadworks maybe?
Can a single Gatso cover 3/4 lanes?


SPECS!
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Just a warning for anyone using the M1 between J13 and J15. Do not rely on your GPS locating device to spot the speed cameras in the roadworks, they seem to be relocating them overnight and the database is therefore not necssarily up to date.

Incidentally they also have a big sign up saying 'Speed Cameras', though they were s************s...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - sean
Why would you want to rely on your GPS, Thommo?

Suggest you rely on your speedo and stick to the limit.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Sean,

Good question and let me explain. The cameras are ONLY placed at accident black spots, that is, very dangerous parts of the road, so my GPS alerts me to this fact and I am extra careful.

Easy...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Armitage Shanks{P}
A lot of people might take the view that roadworks are accident blackspots! They are for the people working in them that's for sure!
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
If we're not careful this will turn in to a speed camera thread but anyway...

I agree roadworks can be inherently dangerous but as always the problem is approriate speed rather than a set level of speed.

I have been through these roadworks on many occasions lately and due to the timing they have either been jammed in which case I passed through at walking pace or empty (4am in the morning) in which case 50mph is too slow.

In any case the most dangerous things in the road works are the dumper trucks which pull straight out in to moving traffic on the principle that they are a hell of a lot bigger than you, but the Police don't get a slice of dangerous driving fines so that irrelevant.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Flat in Fifth
Hear Hear! Mr Armitage Shanks sir!

Be interesting to see the reactions of the " I'm just so skilled, and why should road works speed limits apply to ME!" brigade if they had traffic zapping past at 40/50 mph 15 feet behind *their* desks.

M1 roadworks speed cameras - volvoman
Agreed - did the A2/M2 run last weekend and there was quite a long stretch of roadworks around the Medway Bridge.
Kept to the 50mph limit but found myself being overtaken by all and sundry ! The only places at which the limit was observed were adjacent to the cameras and I certainly wouldn't fancy working so close to the traffic with just a line of plastic cones to protect me.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Steve S
On the A2/M2, VM?

If I was working there on the roads - I'd be more concerned that the continental truck drivers knew which lane was coned off!

It's obviously sensible to have limits down to 40/50 through these but there is no limit that is totally safe to work next to.

After all, many of these accidents around hard shoulders and roadworks involves people falling asleep.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - RickyBoy
Living in the middle of these roadworks (MK/J14) as I do there has been quite a bit of local news coverage on this recently. 2,000+(?) tickets issued last month alone for exceeding the 50 limit. Cameras a plenty ? everywhere (side of road, middle of road, atop of bridges). And quite right too. I mean, if you can't/won't take the time, expect to pay the fine...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
What this probably means is that they'll extend the life of the roadworks to get more wonga, sorry achieve more safety. Why give up on a good thing...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Baskerville
Well, if speeders help pay for the roadworks then that's great for the rest of us. Thanks chaps.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Some hope. The wonga from the cameras goes to pay the wages of those who operate the system and to buy... more cameras. They'll get you sooner or later and you know the definition of a conservative, a liberal who'se just been mugged...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Baskerville
I have no doubt they'll get me eventually--with any luck I have at least forty years of driving ahead of me. But they'll get me because I make a driving error, not because I deliberately aim to break the limit (which is of course also a driving error of a sort). I see cameras as a positive thing; an incentive to sharpen up and stay alert. If they get me then I should have been paying more attention to the hazards: what else have I missed besides the posted speed limit? In the mean time I'll be sticking to the limit where safe to do so as far as is possible.

This will no doubt go to another thread, but if the revenue raised doesn't actually benefit "them," (whoever they are) or go into the general taxation pot, why do you persist in calling it a tax? For reasons of spin, I suspect.

Chris
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Gen
I am sure soon cameras will become cheap enough to be on every road and every traffic light.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - TrevP
LOVE the idea that someone can decide "50mph is too slow".

Not.

Funny, isn't it - it's the people that think that somehow the limits should not apply to them, who are the ones who label fines as "tax".
Are you "taxed" for not having VED? or not having TV licence? Or illegal parking?

M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Trev,

4am Monday morning. Two lanes both empty, only about two other cars in sight. No one working in roadworks. Overhead lights on (Buckinghamshire section, Northamptonshire too cheap to pay for them).

Yep I say 50mph is too slow. And your point is?
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Flat in Fifth
Not unknown for hazards to be in the active lanes in road works even when no workers present, or should I say you think there were no workers present. For true example see (pun unintended) a displaced road works sign edge on to traffic. Reckon you can avoid that in unlit conditions at 70mph?

I guess the family of the individual concerned wish he'd slowed down.

Think about it!
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Humpy
Fair point but what is the chance of that! I mean, he could have been doing any speed between 30 and 50 and not seen that. What if I have a blow out at 70mph and I lose control, I may have been able to retain control if I had been driving at 40mph. So let's make the limit 40mph. It's all a matter of probability.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Nortones2
If we cut away the smokescreen/sales pitch about safety, speed camera detectors are just a means of reducing the risk of being detected, when flouting speed limits. Its about time they were made illegal. Moving the cameras around is fine by me, and a response probably to the increasing use of these detectors. If you don't like speed limits, elect a party that will remove them.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
And if we cut away the smokescreen/sales pitch about 's************s' plus all the doctored statistics to show they work then they are just revenue raisers n'est pas?
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
You spin your way ChrisR and I'll spin my way. Everyone else is a tourist, your a traveller eh?

Yes you will get caught and it will probably be a minor lapse as you say and no one will have been in any danger at all and you will get a fine and points on your licence and if you are prepared to suck that up as a lesson then good on you. I will also no doubt get caught despite my electornic devices but I will scream blue murder and ask why the police who I pay for are prepared to persecute me for what I consider to be a minor offence whilst they do not even investigate burglaries these days, you just get a crime number over the 'phone, and I will make the point that I pay the police's salary and yes I damn well do demand the right to tell them what their priorities should be and I am not alone.

A state in Canada has removed all speed cameras because it has destroyed the relationship between the police and the public and in the absence of public support for the police you need to create a police state to maintain law and order.

Finally, I don't think I ever called it a tax and I'm not sure that its important but one definition of a tax is a payment made to an arm of Governmnet, which this is.

And to DD, yep this has turned in to a speed camera thread, you might want to move it over.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - PR {P}
Well said Thommo, I agree 100%. You missed a bit though about your insurance costs increasing because of it!
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Baskerville
Finally, I don't think I ever called it a tax


No but you did say they might increase the length of time the roadworks were there to raise more "wonga." But what would they do that for given the cost to the country of congestion, much of it caused by roadworks? Isn't this exactly the reason why the money from fines raised by cameras has to go to road safety schemes, so it can't be exploited? You can disagree about what constitutes a road safety scheme but I can't see that any reasonable person could object to the principle.

Chris
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
I'm not sure how I got myself in to this as I was only making a statement about the cameras on the M1 not being in the GPS database, so one more sally and then I must do some work. By the way the crack about extending the roadworks was a joke...

This ground has been gone over endlesly on this board and others.

NO ONE objects to real safety related speed cameras, if they were all located outside schools/OAP homes/genuine accident black spots then so be it and if you get caught then you get the book thrown at you but they are NOT and we ALL know it.

Generally you can't speed past a school anyway because its in a highly congested urban area. Only a lunatic would try it and if that lunatic was caught then whoopee but one lunatic a week is not major wonga and those cameras cost. So they have sited the cameras for maximum wonga raising ability.

If your objective is to reduce car speed why hide a camera behind a bridge support. If the cameras are only sited at known accident black spots how come NEW roads open with cameras in place? Why have roads that have been a 60 limit since limits were introduced now been changed to a 40 limit even though there has been no change in the level of accidents?

You may be pursuing your anti-car agenda and you may not wish to admit it in public but you must know this.

Finally, why have the police been so enthusiatic to take this on and so keen to push the boundaries of what can be called 'safety' as it is clearly destroying their relationship with the middle classes who frankly were/are the only group prepared to give them any support at all these days? I don't know. I suspect that there are plans in the future to upgrade these cameras to number plate recongition devices as well as speed cameras and then you have... a police state. Maybe thats the secret dream of every policeman.

Would I vote for a party that vowed to remove them, you bet cha! Does that party exist? No, so much for democracy.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Baskerville
> By the way the crack about extending the roadworks was a joke...

The usual excuse after the event from people who realise they've said something dumb and regret it.

But anyway, I'm very far from anti-car, Thommo. It's an unsustainable extreme position and I doubt there are actually many people who hold it; probably in the hundreds rather than the thousands. However I do see cars as just one form of transport among many, all of which have their advantages and disadvantages in different situations. If you're planning on starting that political party you mention (this is a democracy and nobody is stopping you after all) you would do well not to alienate potential voters by immediately assuming they are attacking your agenda when in fact they just don't take such a "pure" approach. To attack me on this basis is spin of the most unproductive sort. In fact it could be that "your" pro-car lobby is actually assisting an anti-car lobby by using these tactics; I'm certainly less likely to vote for your "policies" now I've seen your colours, yet what I'd like to see is a sustainable and fair roads policy and I'm quite sure you do too.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - TrevP
"I suspect that there are plans in the future to upgrade these cameras to number plate recongition devices as well as speed cameras and then you have... a police state."

YES please.

Like in Geneva (where I worked for a year).

As a foreigner, you are required to carry your passport as a substitute for Swiss ID card.

Problem? What problem?

What is this irrational fear of tactics against law-breakers?

So, according to this "logic", as I welcome ANPR, I am "anti-car"?. Rubbish. I am anti-criminal.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Chris,

1. If I think that I have said something stupid and an apology is necessary then I say I have said something stupid and I apologise. If I say it was a joke then it was a joke. Hopefully we are clear on this point now.

2. There are hundreds of thousands of people who share my views if not millions, you know it and I know it, why deny it? Also, there are likely to be more people who share my views than yours as your views can only (reasonably) be shared by the urban elite. If you are a farm labourer in Norfolk there is no alternative to the car and if you are priced off the road, as this government seem to be seeking to do then likley you will no longer have a job. Simple as that.

3. I think you must have had some media training from Alastair Campbell as you have completely ignored what I wrote, invented something you seem to imply that I wrote and then sought to rubbish it. You witter on about me forming a political party and you not voting for it. What? It is of course your right to witter on but if you want a debate you have to respond to my points, you can read them again but the two key ones were:

a) siteing of cameras

b)alienation of the public from the police and the consequences thereof

Trev,

How about a police state like Iran? You see the trouble with police states is that you don't know how they'll turn out until your there and then its a bit too late, plus history has lots of examples of powerful men sitting back whilst the machinery of a police state is put in place (with all good intentions) and then taking over the reins of power to use them for their own ends. To quote the Americnas the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Off now, back tomorrow.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Marcos{P}
I have to agree with Thommo,

What we had was a free country.

I'm not sure what were going to end up with, but it wont be free for the average motorist thats for sure.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - TrevP
,i>"There are hundreds of thousands of people who share my views if not millions, you know it and I know it, why deny it?"

Enough to form a political party then? Off you go. Lead away.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Baskerville
Thommo
2. There are hundreds of thousands of people who share
my views if not millions, you know it and I know
it, why deny it?


I didn't deny it. I said the extreme ANTI-car view was unsustainable and held only by a few hundred. Do keep up. Then again, maybe you thought I was joking...
more people who share my views than yours as your views
can only (reasonably) be shared by the urban elite.


Firstly, you've shown no sign of actually knowing what my views are. But actually I'm a country bumpkin born and bred who happens to have landed up (on purpose) within five minutes walk of a rural commuter line railway station with a regular, reliable train service to the nearest city. I need a car or bicycle for other journeys though. In fact the car does 12K a year even without a commute, and using it only very occasionally for work; that's how much we need it.

>> 3. I think you must have had some media training

I am very, very flattered...but no.
To quote the Americnas the price of freedom is eternal >>vigilance.


Plus a bill of rights and a written constitution. I absolutely agree with you about the ways in which police states develop, by the way and have been involved in successful civil disobedience protests myself over many years. I have the court orders and injuries to prove it in fact. But even so I don't think we're anywhere near a police state yet. And given that something has to be done about the traffic/pollution situation, what do you suggest as an alternative to the policies we have in place?

Chris
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Chris,

You clearly have no intention of responding to the points I made so further discussion is pointless.

One last thing, you live within 5 minutes walk of a railway station and commute in to a city. Probably to a well paid white collar job. This does not make you a country bumpkin. This makes you a tourist. Try explaining your views to a guy who lives near you in a village with no rail/bus connections and who works on a farm.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Oh, forgot, suggesting you had media training from Alastair Campbell (let me repeat just so you get the point Alastair Campbell) wasn't a compliment you know, try to keep up...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - RickyBoy
Guys, guys... chill Winston! A fascinating dialogue has ensued during the past 24-hours but in a nutshell ? have those pesky cameras moved any overnight?

We need to know...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Altea Ego
From a personal point of view, the 50mph limit thro roadworks is the one limit I stick to rigidly - why?

1/ Its the most heavily enforced part of a motorway

2/ I read of a worker, late at night, who got sucked out of the roadworks zone by the wake of a lorry passing at 65mph onto the carriageway and was run over by following traffic.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Gen
Thommo

I would be interested in hearing your experiences of living in Iran on which you base your comparison.

I would be interested in hearing your driving experiences in that state in Canada.

I would also be interested how the 'Americans' could say 'the price of freedom is eternal vigilence'. Was that what one American said or? There are many millions of Americans. Surely they didn't all say that to you?

While I don't have any problem with your views I cannot understand why you cannot limit your arguments to things you know about.

If you do have these experiences I apologise for any offence caused.

M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Gen,

I did say I would leave this thread alone and after this I will, promise, but your post is just so stupid I could not resist replying.

No I have not lived in Iran. I did visit frequently at one point in my life but that was before the Shah fell. So what? I watch the news, I read papers and books and I have read the Amnesty report on human right abuses in Iran. Pick a country you have never been to and decide whether you know nothing about it.

No I have never driven in the state of Canada that removed its speed cameras (unless it was Alberta). So what. I did not install, remove or give the reason for the removal the cameras in that state, they did that themselves and then reported it on the news. Plus I discussed it with some Canadian friends of mine. But wait! I have never been there maybe the state does not exist, maybe Canada does not exist. Maybe it's all just a big conspiracy theory.

The actual quote is 'Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom', by Raymonde Uy if you must know. Much quoted in books/newspapers and debated in many medias, plus there is an annual US essay competition based on the quote. But no it can’t be I've never met Raymonde Uy and who are all these school kids? I've never met them either. Conspiracy!

So basically your position is if I have not been there/drove there/met the person who said it then I don’t know about it. You are a moron (no offence).

Last word, promise.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Thommo
Yep Ricky, they moved again. They've got them on sort of little trailers and each one has its own (quite large) generator as well.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Baskerville
Thommo

I think you'll find I've already said I'm broadly in agreement with you on the issue of road transport. We disagree on whether or not we should stick to the speed limit and whether cameras are a good way of making people do that. I also think that the tabloid press is a more significant force in undermining confidence in the police than speed cameras. But that's an area for debate elsewhere.

However you do insist on not reading what I've written. Here's yet another example:
One last thing, you live within 5 minutes walk of a
railway station and commute in to a city. Probably to
a well paid white collar job.


Leaving aside the fact that most well-paid white collar workers are also motorists, citizens, and taxpayers, even if they commute by train, you'll find that at no point did I say I commute to a city. I said that I live within five minutes' walk of a commuter line railway station. As it happens I run a small business. I don't think anyone would call it well paid and as for white collar, well I haven't worn one of those for twenty years. You really should drop these prejudices. People do not fit the boxes you seem to want to put them in: I like my car, I use my car, I don't want to give up my car, but I don't think that the car is the best form of transport for every occasion, so I don't use it for every journey. How unreasonable is that?

As for the M1 cameras: keep to the limit where safe and you'll be fine. Otherwise, it's your choice and your problem.

Chris
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Mark (RLBS)
Since you two are broadly in agreement and are pretty much arguing semantics, and since you have both set out your point of view, I'd say that it was time to calm down ?

Pretty please.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Gen
Thommo

So in fact you can tell us nothing about (motoring) law or practice in Iran? How is speeding dealt with in Iran? We are none the wiser.

And you can tell us nothing about where the speed cameras were located and the roads and the consequences in that state in Canada? Again none the wiser.

And as to your quote that 'Americans' say. In fact an American called Raymonde Uye said it, and it is hotly debated suggesting it is not something all 'Americans' would say or support. I hope in the future you will have more confidence to be able to have your own opinions, and not hide behind others (the 'Americans').

I take no offence at you calling me a moron since you have as little knowledge of this as the other things you wrote on.

My personal opinion is that speed cameras are a good idea, though the danger is of alienating people and putting them as traps to catch people out (as opposed to stopping speeding and safety problems). I think roadworks are an area a sensible driver would slow down and speed cameras are justifiable.

Sadly you will not post again, so I will not know if you have a personal opinion from personal experience or merely rely on the opinions of 'the Americans', Amnesty International and journalists you do not know.


PS There was a time that people would defend drink driving but you rarely see that anymore. I wonder if in 20 years there will be noone defending (excessive) speeding...
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Mark (RLBS)
Fine.

This thread will move to the Speed Camera Thread in a little while.
M1 roadworks speed cameras - sean
I've got to add this,lads.

What we regularly see in roadworks, with little trailers to pull them around and accompanied by big generators are NOT CAMERAS at all.

They are the floodlights used by the work crews to let them work at night.

Wouldn't it be funny if we had gone through all this verbage to find out the root cause was nothing more than floodlamps, surprisingly not listed by GPS camera trackers?
M1 roadworks speed cameras - Baskerville
Hilarious. Do you think this should be moved to the "Floodlight Thread" or the "Law Breakers' Guilty Paranoia Thread"?

Chris
Road deaths - bad news - Muller
It seems that almost every police force in the UK and every s************ partnership are making wondrous claims about the effectiveness of Gatsos etc in reducing road casualties. And yet the 2002 report on UK road fatalities, recently released shows no such thing.

For years fatalities HAD been falling steadily despite a significant growth in traffic volume. Since 1998 when 3421 people died on UK roads there has been virtually no change whatsoever in fatality rates; 3423 in 99, 3409 in 00, 3443 in 01 and 3431 last year. This despite the fact that cars are getting much safer according to NCAP results.

Speed limits are being lowered for ?safety reasons? across the UK, leading to ever increasing journey times and yet it would appear from these figures that there is no safety benefit in driving slower. It could perhaps be argued that longer journey times make greater demands on drivers? concentration which when combined with a lack of stimulation from driving within often inappropriately low speed limits could be a recipe for disaster.

Something is going badly wrong. Could it be that many safety campaigners and the slower speeds brigade with their ?speed kills? mantra are responsible for more people dying on our roads?

Muller


Road deaths - bad news - Gen
Any increase in car numbers over this time?
Road deaths - bad news - sean
If you had a sharpened steel spike protruding out of the steering wheel, what would that do to the standard of your driving?

Volvo found that every safety improvement made their drivers feel so much safer that they pushed the envelope and found their limits. More crashes as it doesn't matter if you just step out.

If you're driving along a wide dual-carriageway, festooned with cameras, at 27mph, you're so bored that you will multi-task, as the ladies say.

You'll then become so engrossed in the phone, shaving, map-reading etc (seen them all) that you'll forget that you're even driving.

Crash, bang, wallop. Oh dear. Another statistic.
Road deaths - bad news - king arthur
If you're driving along a wide dual-carriageway, festooned with cameras, at
27mph, you're so bored that you will multi-task, as the ladies
say.
You'll then become so engrossed in the phone, shaving, map-reading etc
(seen them all) that you'll forget that you're even driving.
Crash, bang, wallop. Oh dear. Another statistic.


For once I agree with you Sean!

I was driving around the M25 one day. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep, maybe I didn't put enough coffee in my cup that morning, but I found myself losing concentration, cruising with the traffic in the middle lane (inside lane fully occupied, I hasten to add), and feeling a bit drowsy.

So what did I do? Pulled into the outside lane and put my foot down. Within SECONDS, I was wide awake and fully able to concentrate on what was happening around me. I felt much safer.
Road deaths - bad news - Baskerville
Every year there are more cars on the road, they make more journeys, they travel more miles. So if the fatalities figures are more or less static in absolute terms, I guess in real terms the roads are safer than they were. Why I couldn't say, but we must be doing something, or some things right.
Road deaths - bad news - cryhavock
Well, according to the DfT, in 1998 cars vans and taxis produced 618 billion passenger-kilometres, and in 2001 624 b p-k. So an increase of 1%.

Stats on
www.transtat.dft.gov.uk/tables/tsgb02/1/pdf/10102....f
Road deaths - bad news - PLS
Every year there are more cars on the road, they make
more journeys, they travel more miles. So if the fatalities figures
are more or less static in absolute terms, I guess in
real terms the roads are safer than they were. Why I
couldn't say, but we must be doing something, or some things
right.


I agree with ChrisR - more vehicles, more driver miles, and static fatality figures suggest something, if not speed cameras, is helping. However, it would be interesting to know whatthe 'injury' (particularly serious injury) figures. These might indicate that modern cars and maybe lower vehicle speed have improved crash survivor rates which otherwise would have resulted in death. A comparison between a congested metropolitan area and a 'high speed' rural area might also show if the injury/death ratios are significantly different.
Road deaths - bad news - Obsolete
Any idea how the stats look for serious injuries and minor injuries and how many of the deaths and injuries are pedestrians? Also any idea where most of the deaths and injuries occur i.e. residential areas, 30's, 40's, countryside etc?
Road deaths - bad news - teabelly
The following has a good summary of statistics. It is a little hysterical about the ratio of deaths in 20 mph areas but I suspect that is because pedestrians would be more likely to step out without looking in areas where the limit is so low as the perceived danger from vehicles is reduced.

www.safespeed.org.uk/percentages.html
teabelly
Road deaths - bad news - Dynamic Dave

Looks like another posting that will get moved to the current speed camera thread later on today.
Road deaths - bad news - pdc {P}
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3055079.stm

The first digital gatso!
Road deaths - bad news - Altea Ego
Good place for it too, the limouse link tunnel is like the tunnel under the hotel at monaco on race day!
Road deaths - bad news - RichardW
See here for all you want to know about road accident statistics: www.transtat.dft.gov.uk/roadsafe/index.htm


RichardW

Road deaths - bad news - smokie
Nice to see the RAC man suggesting that speed cameras aren't the answer to everything
The Speed Camera Thread XI - Mark (RLBS)
Pulling the threads together
 

Value my car