Electric cars are green? Not very. - focussed

Last June a group of scientists led by Professor Richard Herrington, the Natural History Museum’s head of earth science, warned the government that to replace all cars on British roads with EVs, UK demand for the batteries needed would require almost twice the world’s current yearly supply of cobalt, the total amount of neodymium produced globally every year, three-quarters of the world’s annual supply of lithium and at least half its copper supply. No prizes for guessing the effect of this (even if it were feasible) on the prices of these minerals, and therefore the ultimate cost to the consumer. And what about the CO2 emissions generated by this vast excavatory process (chiefly in the Democratic Republic of Congo, home to most of the world’s cobalt reserves)? According to Tim Worstall, a former trader in rare elements: “VW has released the comparative numbers for its new electric Golf against the diesel version. The all-clean, all-climate-friendly version must do 120,000km [75,000 miles]” to break even, “given the emissions required to make the thing.”

Electric cars are green? Not very. - daveyjp

It saddens me when so called experts put their names to such twaddle.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - gordonbennet

Prof Herrington not doing himself any favours on the grant bandwagon.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - focussed

It saddens me when so called experts put their names to such twaddle.

I am tempted to remind you of the increasingly well-known fraudulent altering of climate data that is endemic, to support so called "climate science" but as you are obviously a disciple and a true believer, I won't bother.

Edited by focussed on 09/02/2020 at 11:59

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Terry W

Sensationalist claims even if they are numerically correct - eg: if to replace all cars in UK with EVs would take 2 years world supply of cobalt, and likely replacement spans around 25 years it represents 8.5% of world supply each year!

This is still a lot but feasible - even if it is assumed that there is no improvement to technology over the next quarter century.

In reality I would expect huge amounts of money to be thrown at the science and R&D behind battery technology, not just in this country but worldwide given the commitments to fossil fuel reduction being made.

I would therefore expect major improvements, possibly eliminating the need for many rare elements completely!

Electric cars are green? Not very. - alan1302

It saddens me when so called experts put their names to such twaddle.

I am tempted to remind you of the increasingly well-known fraudulent altering of climate data that is endemic, to support so called "climate science" but as you are obviously a disciple and a true believer, I won't bother.

Because you can't prove something that does not exist...

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

It saddens me when so called experts put their names to such twaddle.

Let's hear your reasons for calling it twaddle. It makes reasonable sense to me, allowing for the size of the battery in an EV, and the numbers of EVs required to provide one (or more) for every driver. And even if the figures are overestimates for the UK, allowing for other nations probably following a similar route can only make things worse.

If your only reason for 'twaddle' is that you don't like the message, please tell us.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Dorset123

Toyota said recently that they can make 62 Yaris Hybrids for the environmental impact that making just 1 EV car has. The petrol car will not go down without a fight !

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

Let's hear your reasons for calling it twaddle.

The twaddle, for want of a better word, is to conflate something that's going to take a decade or more to implement with an estimate of a years supply at current extraction rates.

Supply of cobalt and other minerals is an issue. It is however susceptible to being solved by increasing supply, getting more 'bangs per buck' from a given quantity or finding alternatives.

I'm sure I've said this before but there are a lot of people who react to the change to EV in same way as we tend to react to change at work. People run around saying it's wholly impossible or it won't work for reasons XYZ.

But actually it happens, may be hurdles and teething trouble but a year or two down the line the 'old way' seems to be in dark ages.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - focussed

What "change to EV" ? It's not happening in quantity.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Avant

Not yet, but maybe the Government has brought the deadline forward from 2040 to 2035 not just to keep the green lobby happy but also to concentrate minds. The British are great ones for leaving things to the last minute.

We have to get the infrastructure ready - which for EVs is only there now if you drive a Tesla - and also secure supllies of raw materials. I suspect these may be more widely available than we think, but this needs to be established, especially with cobalt if indeed that is an essential component (Is it? I don't know).

Electric cars are green? Not very. - P3t3r

I heard this recently and it is a concern for me. I've been considering getting an electric company car due to the huge tax benefits (particularly from April this year). However, despite it making sense financially, I do worry about the environmental impact and I'm not sure that I'll do it. When I look at EVs I'd have to get a very big one (weighing almost twice what my current car does) to get a good range. I'd end up with a very high spec and fast car and the government would give me loads of money for it so it's a tough one. I guess everybody would be paying for it environmentally and financially.

I've been taught about climate change since school but with more recent evidence/research, the facts are looking a lot more doubtful. It seems to be more like a religion. It's hard to believe that governments are acting on this misinformation, but perhaps they just see it as an easy way to spend money and create jobs etc.?

Electric cars are green? Not very. - madf

but with more recent evidence/research,

?

Please provide us with details..

Evergything I read (Australia, Antartica, sea levels ) agrees in line with climate change.

If you are going to tell me the forecasts have been wrong.. do not bother. That is why they are forecasts...

Show me places where the climate has got colder over the past 30 years... and where sea levels are falling and I will believe you..

When theories and my own experience agree, I tend to agree with the theories. SO I challenge all climate deniers to show me countries with a 30 years history of falling average temperaures and falling sea levels...And then I might pay interest.

Otherwise I will treat you as I do those who forecast the end of the world is coming (It is : but several million years in the future)

Electric cars are green? Not very. - P3t3r

but with more recent evidence/research,

?

Please provide us with details..

Evergything I read (Australia, Antartica, sea levels ) agrees in line with climate change.

If you are going to tell me the forecasts have been wrong.. do not bother. That is why they are forecasts...

Show me places where the climate has got colder over the past 30 years... and where sea levels are falling and I will believe you..

When theories and my own experience agree, I tend to agree with the theories. SO I challenge all climate deniers to show me countries with a 30 years history of falling average temperaures and falling sea levels...And then I might pay interest.

Otherwise I will treat you as I do those who forecast the end of the world is coming (It is : but several million years in the future)

One of my biggest issues is the bias towards climate change. It's very hard to find anything in main stream media about different opinions. It seems that main stream media won't even allow people to discuss other opinions.

It's interesting that you mention Australia. There is a news channel in Australia that often talks about recent climate things and says what rubbish it is. For example, I (and that news channel) believe that the fires in Australia are caused by poor land management, ie. letting things grow too much. In the past they had burned fields etc. to keep it under control but they haven't been doing it as much recently, so it then burns well when it catches fire.

I think part of the problem is that we're not told what is a forecast. We're simply told that we will all die!

I think the hockey stick graph was a big piece of evidence but has quite recently been dismissed after coming under scrutiny. Also the 9x% of scientists agreeing is a load of rubbish when you actually look at the questions that were asked and how they manipulated the results.

I think looking back 30 years is probably a bit meaningless. Climate has always changed and always will. The question is what the cause is and also how it is changing. Many even believe that we are just entering a cooling period.

The accuracy of temperatures is also questionable due to the heat island effect. For example, they replace an empty field with a runway full of planes and suddenly the temperature increases.

So my real question is whether it is caused by humans. Humans are responsible for less than 1% of CO2 on the planet, so it's hard for me to understand how we could have such a huge impact.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

One of my biggest issues is the bias towards climate change. It's very hard to find anything in main stream media about different opinions. It seems that main stream media won't even allow people to discuss other opinions.

That climate change is happening and that it is caused by CO2 is supported by multiple reputable and properly reviewed science projects. There are a few outlier scientists with a variety of other theories as to whether change is happening and if it is what the cause might be. There's no consensus, no proper review to support any of it. If it were plausible then the oil industry, car manufacturers, aviation and a few governments would be chucking money at it; they're not.

I have an opinion that the moon is made of green cheese but because it's 'another opinion' the media won't allow it to be discussed.

It's interesting that you mention Australia. There is a news channel in Australia that often talks about recent climate things and says what rubbish it is. For example, I (and that news channel) believe that the fires in Australia are caused by poor land management, ie. letting things grow too much.

Australia is a hot bed of climate denial, perhaps because of its massive export of coal.

While I'll happily accept that differences in land management might have mitigated the recent fires it doesn't negate charts showing temperatures that peak higher in successive weather cycles.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - martin.mc

Climate change is the New Religion. Don't upset any of it's followers.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - alan1302

Climate change is the New Religion. Don't upset any of it's followers.

No, it is not.

Climate change is based on science.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

Climate change is the New Religion. Don't upset any of it's followers.

That's not a very convincing rebuttal. And being 'upset' is a fairly pointless attitude to it.

Those who deny that the climate is changing simply deny proper scientific research, presumably because they don't like the idea. I suppose one could ignore the frequent reports of unusually intense weather affecting Australia or even the UK, calling it fake news, but only habitual ostriches do that. You could more credibly say that it is not caused by human activity, and that is more debatable. But simply saying 'Bah, humbug' gets no-one anywhere.

As I have suggested before, the CO2 warming effect could well be caused by the steady post-war increase of commercial aviation pumping exhaust gas into the upper atmosphere, where it is not washed down by rain, and plants can't consume it.

Edited by Andrew-T on 09/02/2020 at 23:32

Electric cars are green? Not very. - P3t3r

Climate change is the New Religion. Don't upset any of it's followers.

That's not a very convincing rebuttal. And being 'upset' is a fairly pointless attitude to it.

Those who deny that the climate is changing simply deny proper scientific research, presumably because they don't like the idea. I suppose one could ignore the frequent reports of unusually intense weather affecting Australia or even the UK, calling it fake news, but only habitual ostriches do that. You could more credibly say that it is not caused by human activity, and that is more debatable. But simply saying 'Bah, humbug' gets no-one anywhere.

As I have suggested before, the CO2 warming effect could well be caused by the steady post-war increase of commercial aviation pumping exhaust gas into the upper atmosphere, where it is not washed down by rain, and plants can't consume it.

I don't think there are many people arguing that climate is changing. It has been changing before humans were even on the planet. What is more of a grey area is the cause.

I spent most of my life believing that climate change was man made and it was hard for me to change my views. The truth is that scientists don't agree and there are things that even the experts don't fully understand. We need proper scientific research, that is exactly what I want! The media and various organisations do not allow this research and don't allow views to be discussed. I often see people from 'green' organisations saying that scientists all agree and they are either unaware or lie about the truth.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - alan1302

The truth is that scientists don't agree and there are things that even the experts don't fully understand. We need proper scientific research, that is exactly what I want! The media and various organisations do not allow this research and don't allow views to be discussed. I often see people from 'green' organisations saying that scientists all agree and they are either unaware or lie about the truth.

There is plenty of proper scientific research - and the media does not stop it being done.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

I don't think there are many people arguing that climate is changing. It has been changing before humans were even on the planet. What is more of a grey area is the cause.

The truth is that scientists don't agree and there are things that even the experts don't fully understand. We need proper scientific research, that is exactly what I want!

We've tons of scientific research supporting the man made warming conclusion.

If there's proper research, or prospect of proper research, saying something different please provide references.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Engineer Andy

I don't think there are many people arguing that climate is changing. It has been changing before humans were even on the planet. What is more of a grey area is the cause.

The truth is that scientists don't agree and there are things that even the experts don't fully understand. We need proper scientific research, that is exactly what I want!

We've tons of scientific research supporting the man made warming conclusion.

If there's proper research, or prospect of proper research, saying something different please provide references.

The lack of a majority of research proving something is not correct does not mean it isn't (I'm not saying that global warming today isn't significantly and specifically man-made), as my post today on the similar thread on EVs/hydrogen power illustrates - the scientific 'consensus' can still get things horribly wrong.

We (and the scientific community) would be arrogant to think that we have all the answers, epsecially as each current generation of them believes we live in 'the greatest technological age of discovery ever', and thus must never or very rarely be wrong.

Look what an arrogant belief in our own magnificence has brought us in the past 100 years. A healthy degree of scepticism is a good thing.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - alan1302

Look what an arrogant belief in our own magnificence has brought us in the past 100 years. A healthy degree of scepticism is a good thing.

Seem to have done quite well over the last 100 years....only real issue is short term thinking over long term.

Had less polluting means of fuels been seriouly looked at when cars first came out instead of waiting until problems arise I'm sure we would be a lot further along.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Engineer Andy

Look what an arrogant belief in our own magnificence has brought us in the past 100 years. A healthy degree of scepticism is a good thing.

Seem to have done quite well over the last 100 years....only real issue is short term thinking over long term.

Had less polluting means of fuels been seriouly looked at when cars first came out instead of waiting until problems arise I'm sure we would be a lot further along.

Lots of scientific discoveries ended up doing a lot of harm to both humanity and the wider world. I'm merely pointing out that quite often 'pride cometh before a fall'.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Hojo_81

For what it's worth Greenland recorded record low temperatures in January but it wasn't reported from any mainstream news agency. But they report every heatwave and flood event.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

For what it's worth Greenland recorded record low temperatures in January but it wasn't reported from any mainstream news agency. But they report every heatwave and flood event.

Exceptional months can happen anywhere and have no relevance to what appears to be rapid shrinkage of Greenland's icecap.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/09/greenland-ice-getting-denser-thats-bad/

Electric cars are green? Not very. - madf

For what it's worth Greenland recorded record low temperatures in January but it wasn't reported from any mainstream news agency. But they report every heatwave and flood event.

At Greenland Summit Camp 3,200M above sea;level. According to teh records shown here:

https://electroverse.net/greenland-just-set-a-new-all-time-record-low-temperature/

the record low lasted about 10 minutes.

"Summit Station was originally established in April 1989 in support of the Greenland Ice Sheet Project Two (GISP2) deep ice coring effort. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_Camp#History

So records go back... 31 years!

That is hardly news

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Hojo_81

I don't doubt the long term trend in the higher latitude of the NH, but it's is still a record and news worthy despite the height above sea level. If it was a heat record it would be all over the news without a doubt. There is a definite bias in reporting heat records compared to cold in the mainstream media.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - alan1302

For what it's worth Greenland recorded record low temperatures in January but it wasn't reported from any mainstream news agency. But they report every heatwave and flood event.

They don't report every flood or heatwave though do they?

Also climate change means what it says, climate change, so you can get colder temperatures in some places.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - madf

For what it's worth Greenland recorded record low temperatures in January but it wasn't reported from any mainstream news agency. But they report every heatwave and flood event.

They don't report every flood or heatwave though do they?

Also climate change means what it says, climate change, so you can get colder temperatures in some places.

If the Gulf Stream stopped flowing,# the UK would see much colder temperatures...

# a postulation made by some scientists.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

If the Gulf Stream stopped flowing,# the UK would see much colder temperatures...

Edinburgh is on same latitude as Moscow.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Engineer Andy

If the Gulf Stream stopped flowing,# the UK would see much colder temperatures...

Edinburgh is on same latitude as Moscow.

Yep, we all all watched the film 'The Day After Tomorrow', though that was the North Atlantic current, but I suspect if one stopped, so would the other because the cause would likely be the same.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - focussed

SO I challenge all climate deniers to show me countries with a 30 years history of falling average temperaures and falling sea levels..

And I challenge you to show us reliable data that proves the climate change theory,

By reliable, I mean data that has not been edited, fiddled, averaged, run through a dodgy computer program that has an inbuilt algorithm that always comes up with the desired result whatever the input.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

By reliable, I mean data that has not been edited, fiddled, averaged, run through a dodgy computer program that has an inbuilt algorithm that always comes up with the desired result whatever the input.

You're on a certainty here, because as you have already said, you cannot prove a negative. So that is perfect argument for any conspiracy theorist or fake news peddler.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - alan1302

Last June a group of scientists led by Professor Richard Herrington, the Natural History Museum’s head of earth science, warned the government that to replace all cars on British roads with EVs, UK demand for the batteries needed would require almost twice the world’s current yearly supply of cobalt, the total amount of neodymium produced globally every year, three-quarters of the world’s annual supply of lithium and at least half its copper supply. No prizes for guessing the effect of this (even if it were feasible) on the prices of these minerals, and therefore the ultimate cost to the consumer. And what about the CO2 emissions generated by this vast excavatory process (chiefly in the Democratic Republic of Congo, home to most of the world’s cobalt reserves)? According to Tim Worstall, a former trader in rare elements: “VW has released the comparative numbers for its new electric Golf against the diesel version. The all-clean, all-climate-friendly version must do 120,000km [75,000 miles]” to break even, “given the emissions required to make the thing.”

Is anyone surprised that to build more electric cars there will need to be more resources of items like cobalt?

How much co2 does the Democratic Republic of Congo produce? How much will it go up?

How many miles must a normal ICE car have to do to break even? Is this including or excluding fuel?

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Theophilus

I’m reminded of the "Great Horse Manure Crisis" (not that I lived through it!) … at the turn of the last century there were over 11,000 horse-drawn hansom cabs on the streets of London plus several thousand horse-drawn buses, totalling over 50,000 horses transporting people around the city each day.

Each horse was estimated to deposit 15-35 lb (that’s 7-15 kg in “new money”) of manure on the streets each day (and I do remember running out into the street with a bucket to collect some of these fragrant offerings for my father’s chrysanthemums), so there was great concern at the implications.

As far back as 1894 that authoritative newspaper, the Times, had extrapolated the figures to calculate that by the middle of the 20th century “every street in London will be buried under 9 feet of manure”.

The world’s first international urban planning conference held in New York in 1898 could suggest no answers and it seemed that urban civilisation was doomed (does that sound familiar?).

Of course the internal combustion engine was the great saviour of the planet (or at least the streets of London) … so it is somewhat ironic that it has now become the demon destroyer!

As a scientist I do believe that climate change is happening, and is at least partially attributable to human activity, but I’m not entirely persuaded that present technologies have the answers we shall need - whilst being optimistic that new solutions will be found.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Steveieb
There is an interesting report in this weeks Sunday Times that concludes that the greenest machine is the one in your garage.
In short it concludes that as much as half of a cars lifetime footprint is from its manufacture , so buying a new one , even an EV is polluting.
I didn't realise that Hybrids will be included in the 2035 ban .
Electric cars are green? Not very. - sammy1

In short it concludes that as much as half of a cars lifetime footprint is from its manufacture , so buying a new one , even an EV is polluting.

Yes I keep reading this but to stop making cars or anything else for that matter the world economy collapses.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

Yes I keep reading this but to stop making cars or anything else for that matter the world economy collapses.

Perhaps that is what we all need :-) I made a totally unscientific prediction a few years ago that by the end of this century all the world's useful resources will have been exploited, and there will be little left but a pile of old money - and piles of crushed cars, I forgot those. Complete conversion to useless 'wealth'. Based on an undiverted extrapolation of course.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Steveieb
Columbo set us all an example all those years ago by driving an eleven year old Peugeot 403 which was even more battered than him !
Electric cars are green? Not very. - Terry W

Climate change is real - there is sufficient documented research and data to demonstrate this unambiguously. People are right to point out that climate has always fluctuated but generally in line with known variations in solar output, and changes to earths orbit and axis of rotation.

What differentiates changes now is that they cannot be explained by "natural" variation. The speed of change is a now major threat simply due to the number of people on the planet. When homo sapien was a hunter gatherer 5000 years ago they moved to where the food was. 200 years ago there were only around 1bn on the planet - now there are 7-8bn.

However climate change is being used as the default explanation to support flawed research, skewed agendas and conclusions - eg:

  • fish stocks in a particular area may decline due to a warming ocean but no regard for the possibility the may wriggle their tails and swim somwhere cooler
  • low rainfall may cause drought in some areas but no regard is taken of more northern areas which may then become agriculturally or arboreally more productive
Electric cars are green? Not very. - alan1302

but to stop making cars or anything else for that matter the world economy collapses.

Who mentioned making no cars? They said the greenest car is the one you already have...if people kept cars until they wore out then we would not need as many built but still need a lot of them.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

<< .if people kept cars until they wore out then we would not need as many built but still need a lot of them. >>

Car manufacturing is such an essential part of the economy that any government will keep the handouts coming as long as they possibly can. Perhaps the main problem is that owners get bored with their car after a few years - or the warranty runs out.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Sofa Spud

Every additional electric car with cobalt in its battery means one less petrol or diesel car which runs on fuel that has been desuphurised in a process that uses . . . wait for it . . . cobalt!

Imagine in 1900 people saying . . . "What I want to know is where will all the petroleum spirit come from if we're going to have thousands of these new-fangled motor cars on our roads?"

Edited by Sofa Spud on 11/02/2020 at 10:01

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

Every additional electric car with cobalt in its battery means one less petrol or diesel car which runs on fuel that has been desuphurised in a process that uses . . . wait for it . . . cobalt!

So how much cobalt is consumed per annum by desulphurisation? Without that info we can't make any meaningful comparison.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006

I have to admit I do not know the data behind the effectiveness of these vehicles on the actual climate, and it gives me a migraine when I try unlike the 4th gen programming I have done in the past.

I draw you attention the longevity of batteries, and the cost of replacing them, the first s not good and the 2nd expensive. So is it really eco friendly if you have to replace all the batteries on average every 100'000 miles on average.

Is it financially affordable when the cost of this can range from 1'000 to 6'000 on average, plus labour costs as this is just the cost of the batteries, and you should bear in mind all the batteries that have been spent and have to be disposed of, if they cannot be re-used. Add the extra cost of an electric car of the same spec and you soon realise it is not cheap. Esp compared to the life expectancy of a diesel or petrol engine, and the cheaper cost of extending the life of that engine.

I think the cost of all of this will keep people away from electric cars for as long as possible, and if you are thinking hybrids are any better, and as was suggested in another post to use fuel only when the batteries cannot hold a charge any more, how much more fuel will you lose carrying those dead batteries.

PS Is the fuel tank smaller on hybrid cars of the same type then their fossil fuel alternative ? Serious question as I honestly do not know, and if it is a lot smaller wont carrying those dead batteries mean more fuel used, and more frequent trips to the petrol station ?

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

I draw you attention the longevity of batteries, and the cost of replacing them, the first s not good and the 2nd expensive. So is it really eco friendly if you have to replace all the batteries on average every 100'000 miles on average.

How much real world evidence is there of EV's suffering battery failure to extent that replacement is necessary? How long is warranty on battery?

In some, for example the Zoe, it is possible to lease the batteries as an alternative to buying outright. An awful lot of people take cars on 3yr PCP so provided warranty isat least three years it's not an issue.

It's also far from unknown for conventional ICE cars to eat their own engine if (eg) turbo fails or timing gear lets go. Plenty of examples from visitors to this site!!

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

<< ... it is possible to lease the batteries as an alternative to buying outright. An awful lot of people take cars on 3yr PCP so provided warranty is at least three years it's not an issue. >>

It may not be an 'issue' for the first owner, but it may still be an overall ecological issue. I can't think of any type of battery with an unlimited life - usually rather dependent on the number of charging cycles it can take.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Engineer Andy

One major thing not in the favour of EVs from Tesla is that apparently, in the US at least, they completely disregard owners of cars after tha car reaches 10yo, and will not licence anyone else to make parts or carry out authorised maintenance/repairs backed by a warranty.

I wonder if this happens elsewhere, as it could make them obsolete well before the rest of the car actually needs to be scrapped.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Steveieb

James Rupport who is well know for his stand on Bangernomics is releasing a new book on the subject.

Understand he concludes that politicians may have accepted that EV s are zero emission !

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Engineer Andy

James Rupport who is well know for his stand on Bangernomics is releasing a new book on the subject.

Understand he concludes that politicians may have accepted that EV s are zero emission !

Maybe they think the cars can be equally recharged by converting the hot air eminating from their pie holes into electricity.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - misar

This thread is a perfect example of the problem with the climate change debate, regardless of which side of the fence you sit.

It is full of "facts" posted without any knowledge of their accuracy. Even worse, everyone selects or interprets their "facts" to support their particular prejudice.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Engineer Andy

This thread is a perfect example of the problem with the climate change debate, regardless of which side of the fence you sit.

It is full of "facts" posted without any knowledge of their accuracy. Even worse, everyone selects or interprets their "facts" to support their particular prejudice.

Exactly. My belief is that many scientists are 'herding' by fitting their science to their own beliefs (especially political ones) so that their 'research' always shows what they want it to.

Science has been like this in the past, though less about political agendas and more about 'fitting in' with scientific opinion to not be seen as an 'outsider' or a pariah.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Terry W

We are getting very close to the tipping point for EVs - the point at which the desire (economic and environmental) for EV starts to materially exceed that of ICE.

Over the last decade the price of batteries has fallen from around £800 to £120-150 per KWh.

The range of "everyday" EVs has increased to 150-250+ miles depending on driving style, model and pack size. For most people, most of the time this will more than meet their needs.

The cost of EVs has fallen although they are still around £6-10k more than a roughly equivalent ICE. But with reducing battery costs and higher volume economies of scale they may be very close to conventionally powered vehicles in 2-3 years.

Recharging was and still is an issue. But fast chargers are capable of recharging to 80% in less than 30 minutes. With a range of (say) 200 miles a long journey could be undertaken with a normal break for a coffee and facilities every 3 hours.

EVs are technically far simpler than ICE - no gearbox or clutch, a handful of moving motor parts vs several hundred in ICE. Ultimately much cheaper to maintain.

The key outstanding issue is power generation and distribution. But if demand for power is there the energy companies will want to provide it - thats how they make a profit and keep shareholders happy.

The transition will not be seamless, there will be problems - but do not kid yourself that it will not happen. EVs are a disruptive technology - just as the car was when the main motive power was the horse, email mostly replaced snailmail, smartphones allowed Uber etc to challenge traditional taxis, online shopping is killing off the high street etc.

And the new infrastructure required for these happened inside a decade. Don't think it was easy - eg: cars replacing horses needed roads, oil industry, petrol stations, garages, tyres etc. Stables were no longer required, grooms often became motor mechanics, saddle and harness makers went to the wall, etc etc.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

EVs are a disruptive technology - just as the car was when the main motive power was the horse, email mostly replaced snailmail, smartphones allowed Uber etc to challenge traditional taxis, online shopping is killing off the high street etc.

Yes, we realise there have been precedents, but the transitions you list took place because they offered immediate tangible improvements for the 'customer'. I don't think EVs do that, at least not yet. Their USP is to reduce pollution in urban areas by causing it elsewhere. EVs are not noticeably better for buyers except by providing access to places where ICE vehicles can't go, while having shortcomings in range and speed (and so far, convenience) of recharging.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

Their USP is to reduce pollution in urban areas by causing it elsewhere.

Some is moved elsewhere but even tonight when the demand is enough that we're using coal fired plant 40% of power is from renewables and another 16% from nuclear.

Not sure where gas fits in. Clearly involves CO2 but how is it for NOx or particulates?

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

<< Not sure where gas fits in. Clearly involves CO2 but how is it for NOx or particulates? >>

Gas combustion is essentially the same as petrol. Most of the NOx comes from diesels which ignite by a higher compression ratio. That reaction is able to involve atmospheric nitrogen, which is mostly unaffected by spark-initiated combustion.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - JoeB

The Earth's climate has fluctuated for millions of years. The whole 'climate change' fraud is perpetuated by scientists who depend on a steady stream of grant income to fund their comfortable lifestyles and final salary pensions. Of course they find evidence of climate change! All this is of course backed and funded by a powerful global left-wing elite - these are the same people who opposed Brexit and (unsuccessfully) planted hundreds of Project Fear stories! Notice how nothing changed after Brexit and all the Project Fear stories have stopped?

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Bromptonaut

The Earth's climate has fluctuated for millions of years. The whole 'climate change' fraud is perpetuated by scientists who depend on a steady stream of grant income to fund their comfortable lifestyles and final salary pensions. Of course they find evidence of climate change! All this is of course backed and funded by a powerful global left-wing elite - these are the same people who opposed Brexit and (unsuccessfully) planted hundreds of Project Fear stories! Notice how nothing changed after Brexit and all the Project Fear stories have stopped?

If this is true why are there not a whole load of equally well off scientists on the opposite side getting fat on funding from big oil and the motor industry?

And since we're presently in transition with no change Brexit has yet to happen.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Andrew-T

The Earth's climate has fluctuated for millions of years. The whole 'climate change' fraud is perpetuated by scientists who depend on a steady stream of grant income to fund their comfortable lifestyles and final salary pensions.

Oh God, another lunatic conspiracy theorist. I assume he is not a scientist (or he might think differently) and distrusts those who are. Presumably the flooding here and record temps elsewhere are just acts of God, or fake news to satisfy the media.

Or maybe it's just a wind-up ....

Edited by Andrew-T on 12/02/2020 at 09:49

Electric cars are green? Not very. - madf

"And the new infrastructure required for these happened inside a decade. Don't think it was easy - eg: cars replacing horses needed roads, oil industry, petrol stations, garages, tyres etc. Stables were no longer required, grooms often became motor mechanics, saddle and harness makers went to the wall, etc etc."

That was easy..

Large scale adaptation of EVs requires largescale very expensive rewiring of substations , (all 40k + of them), distribution networks and cables. It will cost tens of £billions, take years and need to be planned.

The National Gird has produced a paper : https://www.nationalgrid.com/document/125116/download

which basically proposes a series of high speed chargers at Motorway Service Areas.. (MSAs) The leadtime to produce each one is 4 YEARS. (form start of planning).

They reckon then everyone whould be within 50 miles of one so charging will be practical..

This was all predicated on a all EVs not by 2035 as recently announced but later. And Government Agreement to funding by 2019!!!!!!!!!!

(not happened but this was announced https://www.ndors.org.uk/400-million-boost-announced-for-uk-ev-charging-network/)

It is worth reading. (and despairing)


Edited by madf on 12/02/2020 at 10:32

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Avant

This has become very similar to the other current thread on climate change. Both have run their course and are getting to be boring.

I'll give them till tomorrow evening in case there is anything new and constructive to be said: otherwise that's it.

Electric cars are green? Not very. - Avant

There wasn't.

 

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